New railway line in Devon

[Jan]

Obviously it's too early to contemplate detail as we don't even have any confirmation of a Tavistock re-opening yet.  However the issues to my mind include building in adequate track capacity to offer an hourly Tavistock service when traffic picks up (compare Alloa as an example of what can happen), not disadvantaging in any way those who use Calstock and Gunnislake stations whether that means trains split and attach at Bere Alston or they retain their own trains additional to a Tavistock service, siting the future Tavistock station at an accessible and meaningful location in terms of the town geography and then sourcing rolling stock which I would hope to be nothing lesser in quality than a 150 sprinter.

 

Whether a loop is built at Bere Ferrers or Bere Alston some sort of crossing facility is almost certainly going to be needed unless the timetable is so infrequent as to require only one train working; that will surely not be an attractive option for those in Tavistock who already have a car or up to three buses an hour as alternative options.

 

In my view nothing should be done which will significantly impede any long-term future reawakening of Tavistock - Okehampton.  There are already some substantial blockages to that route but my concern is that nothing stupid is done such as selling the land Tavistock Viaduct occupies to buy a station site for instance.

 

The exhibition material ( http://www.devon.gov.uk/exhibition-material.pdf ) talks of "maintaining" the Gunnislake service. No "improvement" cited. I think the plan is to run an hourly service - certainly at peak periods - so I don't think splitting at BA would be an option (although I stand to be corrected by those who know more than I...) and I believe that - given the distance - the "one engine in steam" working would not be possible either.

 

You'll also see that the "meaningful location" you desire isn't necessarily an option, either. Basically, the constraints of geography and pre-existing civil engineering are something of a fait accompli ; unless they decide to instigate some sort of elevation to the new station - one of the the limiting factors is (and I speak here as someone who uses the road frequently) the lack of clearance in any reinstated rail overbridge crossing over the Callington Road. Which I presume is why they have stopped on the south side of Callington Road. Another reason is WDBC's offices (and surrounding housing) occupying the old Tavistock SR station directly to the east of the viaduct in town .....

 

 

[Gwiwer]

Easy steps.  Let's get trains back north of Bere Alston first.  

 

Despite my "home" location down under I am quite familiar with Tavistock and the interruptions to the former SR route.  Missing bridges, substantial office buildings, private ownership of the land ...... 

 

I agree the only likely site for a new station would be short of the town centre and on the opposite side to most of the housing.  It would be a huge error of judgement IMO to rule out any long-term reinstatement north of Tavistock however and would also be something of a shot-in-the-foot to spend millions re-opening to a station which was unattractively situated and which people found inconvenient to use.  

 

However as you say options are - for now - limited and we need to get the trains back before looking at whether the next step might be to cross the viaduct once more at a later time.  And if so how that might be done.

[Captain Kernow]

Easy steps.  Let's get trains back north of Bere Alston first.  

 

 

However as you say options are - for now - limited and we need to get the trains back before looking at whether the next step might be to cross the viaduct once more at a later time.  And if so how that might be done.

 

Wise words there, Rick. I know more than I can say on here, but we are dealing with 'the art of the possible'. It's not wrong to have 'wish lists' when it comes to fantastic projects like this, but taking things one step at a time is the surest way of getting a positive outcome here, believe me!

[roythebus]

Station siting is important. Take Wittersham Road on the KESR, a very long way from Wittersham!

 

As there sems to be a frequent bus service in Tavvy, people who can't or don't drive will be tempted to use the bus as it stops in the high street. However, buses are commercially operated and liable to the vagaries of "the market", BSOG/share prices of the incumbent operator, local council funding cuts etc. A railway service would be more guaranteed.

Edited February 1, 2013 by roythebus

[Gwiwer]

Daytime buses between Tavistock Bus Station and Plymouth are commercially operated.  Almost all others are contracted by DCC including the Greenlands route which links a major residential area with the town centre and which used to be an extension of one of the Plymouth routes.  As such it is DCCs call (which can be influenced by the bus operators) as to whether or not they wish to divert buses to a new railway station and that is assuming that such a station has a suitable parking and turning area for buses.

 

Tavistock isn't that big and clearly doesn't support commercial buses on a purely local basis.  It might also be a moot point whether DCC will continue to support evening and Sunday buses if they are also offering revenue support to a reinstated rail link.  Time will tell.  DCC has recently been in the position of having to withdraw bus funding with the result that some routes have been thinned out or withdrawn altogether.  That is partly down to the overall financial situation and in part account the requirement that bus operators must accept senior citizen free passes but then cannot recover the reasonable cost of those journeys meaning even fully-loaded buses can be running at a loss.

 

A railways service would be "more guaranteed" as much as anything because it falls under different legislation where ongoing revenue support is concerned.  But it also falls within the obligation of the TOC acting as franchisee to maintain the agreed service within the financial package agreed.  Either when the franchise was awarded or as a variation under it for operating a new service.

[Jan]

Wise words there, Rick. I know more than I can say on here, but we are dealing with 'the art of the possible'. It's not wrong to have 'wish lists' when it comes to fantastic projects like this, but taking things one step at a time is the surest way of getting a positive outcome here, believe me!

 

It's OK to be excited, though Tim? I appreciate the coming yards will undoubtedly be hard for you and your colleagues (I still have my ex-Toddington hi-vi vest somewhere if you need an hand ), but Isn't it better to have excitement (and thus perhaps engendered anticipation) than indifference and apathy? Now, where's my Gantt chart...

[Captain Kernow]

It's OK to be excited, though Tim? 

Yes, 'excitement' and it's close bedfellow 'structured, engendered anticipation' are both permitted....

How nice it will be as well, to have Bere Alston as a 'country junction' once more!...

[R A Watson]

It is reported in the local paper today that the "Tavistock Railway Station" site is up for sale for £1.25 million with scope for further holiday residential letting development, this does not include the local council offices already on the site.

 

As I pointed out in an earlier post (no 32) the proposed new terminus is on the Plymouth side of the Gunny road bridge and just happens to be on the bit of land which the developer is seeking to build on, can this be coincidental or am I being my normal cynical self?

 

The existing residential developments in the area are all on the Plymouth side of the town resulting in most commuters having to travel away from their destination to reach the station rather than go directly towards it as they will when travelling on the A386. This same perception of going the wrong way is one of the reasons why Ivybridge station did not, and still does not, attract it's target market.

 

If we then factor in the fact that the major employment areas of Plymouth have migrated to the north and eastern sides of the city which are easily accessible from the A386 before it arrives in the City proper any commuter traffic is lost to the roads before we start. There is a well established park and ride flow which leads from the industrial area in to the City centre passing the railway station on it's journey, anyone traveling in by train will need to use this route in the reverse direction to get to work!

 

I,like most people on here, would love to see the project succeed but knowing the locals in this part of the world I cannot see the actually useing it.

 

Wally

[Captain Kernow]

It is reported in the local paper today that the "Tavistock Railway Station" site is up for sale for £1.25 million with scope for further holiday residential letting development, this does not include the local council offices already on the site.

 

As I pointed out in an earlier post (no 32) the proposed new terminus is on the Plymouth side of the Gunny road bridge and just happens to be on the bit of land which the developer is seeking to build on, can this be coincidental or am I being my normal cynical self?

 

The existing residential developments in the area are all on the Plymouth side of the town resulting in most commuters having to travel away from their destination to reach the station rather than go directly towards it as they will when travelling on the A386. This same perception of going the wrong way is one of the reasons why Ivybridge station did not, and still does not, attract it's target market.

 

If we then factor in the fact that the major employment areas of Plymouth have migrated to the north and eastern sides of the city which are easily accessible from the A386 before it arrives in the City proper any commuter traffic is lost to the roads before we start. There is a well established park and ride flow which leads from the industrial area in to the City centre passing the railway station on it's journey, anyone traveling in by train will need to use this route in the reverse direction to get to work!

 

I,like most people on here, would love to see the project succeed but knowing the locals in this part of the world I cannot see the actually useing it.

 

Wally

 

The A386 is still a horrendous road to drive on in the rush hour, Wally. From what I've seen, the new station will be built pretty much as close in to the town as practicable, and I do understand that the developers and DCC have been 'doing their homework' as regards estimated expected useage.

[Siberian Snooper]

There's just been a bit on the Spotlight lunchtime news, that they might start work in the next 5 years, at a cost of about 30 million quid, around 2/3rds coming from the developer.

 

That's £6 million a mile where the trackbed has already been earmarked for re-instatement, what cost to re-open the bit from there to Meldon?.

[Gwiwer]

I reckon £6m a mile is very cheap.  We are talking a total rebuild of a long-abandoned alignment here not just replacing some track.  We are talking significant resignalling and new safe working arrangements and additional rolling stock and staffing costs.  

 

If we were talking Tavistock - Okehampton £30m would barely get you a feasibility study.  To rebuild Meldon Viaduct alone would surely cost a lot more than that.

[The Stationmaster]

There's just been a bit on the Spotlight lunchtime news, that they might start work in the next 5 years, at a cost of about 30 million quid, around 2/3rds coming from the developer.

 

That's £6 million a mile where the trackbed has already been earmarked for re-instatement, what cost to re-open the bit from there to Meldon?.

Sounds about right to me - design costs, earthworks, drainage, any bridgeworks, ballast, and then something well over £1million per mile for the track itself, plus possibly a cable route for comms and of course build a station at Tavistock.  Thinking about it in fact it sounds very much on the cheap side so it will - inevitably - be a rather basic sort of raiiway I expect.

[Edwin_m]

Sounds about right to me - design costs, earthworks, drainage, any bridgeworks, ballast, and then something well over £1million per mile for the track itself, plus possibly a cable route for comms and of course build a station at Tavistock.  Thinking about it in fact it sounds very much on the cheap side so it will - inevitably - be a rather basic sort of raiiway I expect.

I was involved in an early study over a decade ago and heard a few details since then.  As far as I'm aware the formation and structures are mostly in reasonable condition with the exception of a small bridge or two missing (one just beyond Bere Alston I think).  The signaling would also be minimal comprising an enlarged ground frame at Bere Alston released by two staffs, plus a few telephone lines, so no comms link assuming the phones can be provided by other means.  Very similar to what is on the Looe branch but not involving any signaler release at Bere Alston. 

 

Bere Alston island platform would be extended out to meet the existing track and the former branch platform on the other side reinstated.  The first train of the day would be two units, splitting at Bere Alston with one unit locked into the Gunnislake branch to run connecting shuttles all day before returning to Plymouth as part of the last train.  This requires only one new set of points, or perhaps two if the geometry of the existing ones at Bere Alston is unsuitable.  And the £30m wouldn't include the cost of the extra unit as that would be leased - but finding a spare DMU could be the biggest challenge of all. 

Edited July 9, 2014 by Edwin_m

[Siberian Snooper]

There will be a repeat at 6.30 or there abouts in tonights Spotlight.

[phil-b259]

I was involved in an early study over a decade ago and heard a few details since then.  As far as I'm aware the formation and structures are mostly in reasonable condition with the exception of a small bridge or two missing (one just beyond Bere Alston I think).  The signaling would also be minimal comprising an enlarged ground frame at Bere Alston released by two staffs, plus a few telephone lines, so no comms link assuming the phones can be provided by other means.  Very similar to what is on the Looe branch but not involving any signaler release at Bere Alston. 

 

Bere Alston island platform would be extended out to meet the existing track and the former branch platform on the other side reinstated.  The first train of the day would be two units, splitting at Bere Alston with one unit locked into the Gunnislake branch to run connecting shuttles all day before returning to Plymouth as part of the last train.  This requires only one new set of points, or perhaps two if the geometry of the existing ones at Bere Alston is unsuitable.  And the £30m wouldn't include the cost of the extra unit as that would be leased - but finding a spare DMU could be the biggest challenge of all. 

 

A Bourne End in the peaks style of operation then.

 

However 1tph does sound unattractive at peak times - though possibly some linespeed improvements or missing out Bere Ferrers & St Budeaux on the opposite direction to the traffic flow in the peaks might make every 45mins a possability

[Siberian Snooper]

A Bourne End in the peaks style of operation then.

 

However 1tph does sound unattractive at peak times - though possibly some linespeed improvements or missing out Bere Ferrers & St Budeaux on the opposite direction to the traffic flow in the peaks might make every 45mins a possability

That would depend on whether or not the token will still need to be picked up at Budo.

[The Stationmaster]

Plymouth - Bere Alston, with a stop only at St Budeaux (currently unavoidable - might change with resignalling but looks doubtful) is 19 minutes at present, 13 minutes from St Budeaux, add c.5-6 miles on to Tavistock = plus another 6/7 minutes minimum.  So the quickest out & back time you are looking at from St Budeaux to Tavistock is c.20 minutes running each way plus 3 minutes turnround = 43 minutes minimum.  So the closest interval you can get between successive trains is c.46 minutes at the very best, the interval from Plymouth is hourly assuming a captive unit is used.

 

The interval could possibly be reduced to the theoretical minimum if sets come & go off other workings in Plymouth but it will still be physically impossible with minimal infrastructure to beat that (possibly a tad optimistic?) 45 minute margin at St Budeaux and it will be awfully tight for reliability.  However a lot depends on the unit working and any inter-working with other services.

[Captain Kernow]

Bere Alston island platform would be extended out to meet the existing track and the former branch platform on the other side reinstated.  The first train of the day would be two units, splitting at Bere Alston with one unit locked into the Gunnislake branch to run connecting shuttles all day before returning to Plymouth as part of the last train.  This requires only one new set of points, or perhaps two if the geometry of the existing ones at Bere Alston is unsuitable.  And the £30m wouldn't include the cost of the extra unit as that would be leased - but finding a spare DMU could be the biggest challenge of all. 

Latest plan I was party to would see half the length of the former Up platform extended out to form a platform face on the opposite side of the through line (to Tavistock), with the remaining (Plymouth-end) face remaining where it was, and this would be the 'Gunnislake bay'. However, I'm personally not convinced that the alignment over the bridge at the south-end of the station would allow the Gunnislake line to enter like that, but there was no enthusiasm to reinstate the track on the outer face of the old island platform. Much will depend on how the detailed design goes now, I guess.

 

Whatever the preferences about trains more frequently than one per hour, this is the absolute maximum that can realistically be achieved, and the final outcome will also depend on the business case. There can be no question of an early reinstatement of additional infrastructure between St Budeaux and Bere Alston, as the business case won't support it. Maybe later, who knows? The case was, after all, made for Penryn, although that was admittedly in connection with a very specific development - the college traffic (and very successful it's been, too).

 

I haven't seen the Spotlight piece as yet, although I did hear on the news earlier this morning that the councils were meeting to discuss the project today, so I suppose it's no surprise that there's now a media item on it.

 

Only a matter of time before trains are back in Tavistock, I think.

[Ramblin Rich]

Spotlight program link  1st feature from around 50 seconds in! Main story is that the developers seem to be keen to go ahead which would provide a lot of the funding, there were fears that they would be put off by requirement to fund the rail link but do now seem likely to go ahead.

Leads into story about improving A303 road route, which seems to still be piecemeal small improvements rather than overall dual carriageway (as many are calling for). 

Edited July 9, 2014 by Ramblin Rich

[brianusa]

At least this topic is brought back to life but its a slow process.  What is the condition of the Tavy bridge?  Its the major structure of the line (apart from Meldon),  so is it secure for the current project as well as any later extension?  It all seems so simple, track bed is all there, repair a couple of bridges and bobs yer uncle!  Naturally, this is not reality with everything that has to be considered nowadays.  Surely a couple of extra trains can be found from somewhere!

 

Another thought - Tamerton, which has grown beyond all recognition.  It is a bit close to Plymouth but the old worry that it was too far away from the 'village' has changed somewhat with all the extra housing in the immediate area.  Or is this going too far!

 

Brian.

[Captain Kernow]

At least this topic is brought back to life but its a slow process.  What is the condition of the Tavy bridge?  Its the major structure of the line (apart from Meldon),  so is it secure for the current project as well as any later extension?  It all seems so simple, track bed is all there, repair a couple of bridges and bobs yer uncle!  Naturally, this is not reality with everything that has to be considered nowadays.  Surely a couple of extra trains can be found from somewhere!

 

Another thought - Tamerton, which has grown beyond all recognition.  It is a bit close to Plymouth but the old worry that it was too far away from the 'village' has changed somewhat with all the extra housing in the immediate area.  Or is this going too far!

 

Brian.

Tavy Viaduct is OK for sprinter trains at the moment, Brian, but would need a lot of work for faster and heavier trains, if the line went back to Okehampton etc.

 

No one has any plans for a station at Tamerton at the moment, as far as I am aware. Presume the buses are sufficient from there into Plymouth.

[Edwin_m]

Surely a couple of extra trains can be found from somewhere!

The infrastructure for the Todmorden Curve project is now complete but the one extra unit to extend a Manchester-Todmorden service to Burnley cannot be found until December, when the Liverpool-Manchester electrification allows EMUs to start displacing DMUs.  With no prospect of new diesels and some existing fleets needing major modifications which might not be economic, the DMU situation is likely to remain tight for several years yet. 

[brianusa]

Its hard to understand how railways function under these conditions.  The 100pc use of stock must please the bean counters but does nothing for the flexibility needed to run trains.

But then, what do I know!

 

Brian.

[Siberian Snooper]

Tavy Viaduct is OK for sprinter trains at the moment, Brian, but would need a lot of work for faster and heavier trains, if the line went back to Okehampton etc.

 

No one has any plans for a station at Tamerton at the moment, as far as I am aware. Presume the buses are sufficient from there into Plymouth.

 

 

Two buses an hour to and from Tamerton, apart from the brats school children in the morning and afternoon if there is more than half a dozen on the bus it is very busy 2 or 3 is the norm, wrinkly ninjas excepted on the first bus after 9.30.

 

There has been no development in the direction of the station.

[The White Rabbit]

Just to set the scene for people who don't know the area: http://www.tracklogs.co.uk/shop/tldigimap/miniscale/ecf608prlg.jpg

 

I was wondering about how the line might be operated. At the moment, it's simple, one unit (a 150 whenever I've been there) trundles up and down all day about every two hours. With a Y shaped line, I speculated whether it would be a case of run Plymouth to Tavistock as the 'main' line and operate Bere Alston to Gunnislake as a branch (as CK suggests 'they' are planning) or whether there'd be an hourly service Plymouth - BA and then trains alternate between going up to Gunnislake and Tavistock (with obvious disadvantages for Tavistock passengers). Trains have 20 minutes timetabled for BA to Gunnislake and 18 coming back (downhill), so allowing 10 minutes or so at each end, an hourly service would be entirely feasible. I did wonder whether FGW would look at using a 153 (I've never seen a 150 more than 20% full, although admittedly that's not been at rush hour times) but Calstock station is on a bit of a curve... GCSE geometry shows that there'd be more of a gap between door and platform edge with a 153 than a 150. Whether that gap would be dangerously wide I don't know - CK or another engineer may be able to say. 

 

Then I started doing more maths and came to the conclusion (before I read CK's post the other day) that the extension to Tavistock could require three units to work the line. Looking at the timetable - http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/eNRT/May14/timetables/Table%20139.pdf - I saw that it takes 24/25 minutes Plymouth to BA or vice versa. So you could operate an hourly service Plymouth to BA no problem, though the 5/6 minute turn around at each end is rather tight. As Tavistock is further (and I wasn't sure how much time to schedule in for BA to Tavistock), I ended up with the situation that to operate an hourly service, you'd need two units and a passing place (possibly at BA, working on the grounds it would have signalling anyway and possibly an existing loop, depending what the revised track layout was. Though then you need to remember the Gunnislake shuttle and leave platform space/time for it...) Of course that assumes you want to operate an hourly service. But if you used a unit to act as the Gunnislake shuttle on an hourly schedule, you could end up with the situation where Tavistock, with a larger population, has a poorer service than Gunnislake. And if most of the journeys are to/from Plymouth, half the shuttles would be busy and half deserted. Would that be acceptable? I wouldn't like to have to stand up and announce that to the press and local people. If the line is to be extended to Tavistock, there's obviously a business case for the capital investment and some consideration for increased operating costs, so I could see how using two units wouldn't distress FGW, but having to use three? From their point of view, the obvious solution would be to run a regular service every (say) 80 or 90 minutes. But that takes away the advantage of a clockface timetable. Would that be a deal-breaker? I'm just tying myself in knots, so I think I'd like to hear from someone who knows more than I do about timetabling trains in the real world or even specific plans for the extension (if the details are not confidential).