Dapol 'Western'

[DapolDave]

Know what you mean about Newton... and it's not 'in the bowels of the earth' either. I'm a Brummie, but live near Newton now, and I could do all the 'popping down the road' for you!!!!

There you go Jim,

 

sorted :-)  

cheers

Dave

[Downendian]

That's my fault Dave-,it's in the photo review thread.

I'll edit the offending post until I get precise measurements - micrometer in Plymouth me on the way to Heathrow

Neil

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hi Neil,

 

I've just this minute received my first Dapol Western (in green) and a lovely looking loco it is too.

 

As for the wheel diameter concerns it looks like a non-problem but it is better to examine and scotch such rumours as soon as they surface.

 

Regards

 

Dave   

[Downendian]

Agreed - post edited.

Neil

[BR(W)]

STOP IT HORSE TAN!!!!!

 

I didn't realise Brassmasters did a Lima conversion pack......

 

You've got me juices flowing now!

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

Oh, yes. I should love to see someone with your amazing skills tackle the Brassmasters conversion pack for Lima's Western. I have always thought that it looked pretty good; have you seen the gallery on the Brassmasters site?

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gallery_western.htm

 

Please, pretty please...

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

[Barry Ten]

Oh, yes. I should love to see someone with your amazing skills tackle the Brassmasters conversion pack for Lima's Western. I have always thought that it looked pretty good; have you seen the gallery on the Brassmasters site?

 

 

 

 

Not up to Horsetan's level but here's an old shot of my Lima/Brassmasters Western:

 

 

My local shop had a green Dapol Western in with sound on the weekend - looked and sounded top trumps. I hope

to get a Maroon one at some point.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Barry Ten

[S.A.C Martin]

DapolDave must be considering throwing in the towel and taking up something uncontroversial such as politics!

 

I don't wish to get into the rights and wrongs of the Dapol model - for me, it's superb as it is.

 

However, I fail to see how *anyone* with the vaguest interest in the Westerns could fail to have been aware of the development of the Dapol model.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33639-Dapol-western-update/

 

Thirty-seven (!!) pages, starting in March 2011, of the most intricately detailed debate, critical appraisal, and positive input, which must constitute by far the most interactive product development ever in the field of model railways.

 

I cannot understand how such knowledgeable members failed to be aware of, let alone participate in, this community effort to get a model correct once and for all.

 

The excuse that "I wasn't aware of it" cuts no ice with me, I'm afraid; and the comment that "there's people at Dapol that are "paid" to check these things" strikes me as totally 'dog in the manger'!

 

If you have knowledge, and you're going to be critical of the final product, why on earth would you *not* come forward when the opportunity for change was there?

 

John, not only is it entirely possible with this forum of 20,000 people and a good couple of thousand posts a day to miss a single thread, but it also strikes me as particularly missing the point to start levelling accusations at the masses when there were already a good twenty or thirty people providing information, photographs and even diagrams, to Dapol, on a regular basis, entirely unpaid and done out of a desire to help create a model they would wish to buy. 

 

This is a commercial product, and yes - it is up to the company to have hired someone who signs on the final Cad drawings. It is not up to someone unpaid to give up their time to do it for them. That's what research and development is for, that's why companies like Dapol put money aside for that sort of thing, and might I add Dapol are not a charity. They are a business and a going concern, and unless you are suggesting that people donating time and resources to helping Dapol make their models and make their money is comparable to people volunteering to help the Scouts, I'm afraid your criticisms of both those who did give up their time and effort previously, and now, doesn't hold much water.

 

If you are expecting people to give up time and resources for a commercial enterprise then they should be compensated accordingly. No one who freely added to the original thread has, as far as I am aware (and I apologise DapolDave if this is incorrect) has been compensated monetarily. I expect all of them are happy enough to have helped produce the "definitive Western" as it has been put in this thread. To devalue their contributions by criticising people on mass for not helping is frankly a warped view of the situation.

 

 

It is now well established that there are people who love the opportunity to show off their superior knowledge when it's too late to alter the 'offending detail; I draw my own conclusions.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

I would suggest that with any product, criticisms are going to be made: that they have for the most part (in fact, as far as I can see, entirely) constructively when speaking about the Western, and it is a hazard (and in my view, a positive) of model railways that people are going to be discerning and detail conscious. 

[The Stationmaster]

Never a bad thing Jim,

 

Welcome to the Hydraulics, and we all expect a lovely model of Exeter St. Davids next

Knowing your modelling ability it would probably be as mind blowing as New Street

 

cheers

Dave

Dave, In view of your suggestion of St Davids I can but presume that you will telling us shortly which version of the D8XX 'Warship' you will be doing first?

Edited March 5, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Horsetan]

Are we really quibbling over a margin of error of 2% over 90%?

 

Even if their maths is wrong, so what? Who died? They got over 90% in an almost arbitrary score. What was written in the article was almost 100% positive stuff, bar the extremely minor point about the brake rigging (which is Model Rail doing their jobs frankly).

 

 

Yes, and I have no problem with that, but to describe a discrepancy of 2% as "disappointing" seems wholly unfair on the reviewer.

 

The pettiness apparent with regards the model rail review leaves me wondering what exactly the agenda is for that sort of party line.

 

 

.......I would suggest that with any product, criticisms are going to be made: that they have for the most part (in fact, as far as I can see, entirely) constructively when speaking about the Western, and it is a hazard (and in my view, a positive) of model railways that people are going to be discerning and detail conscious. 

 

When I read the three posts above, I did wonder whether there might just be a touch of the shifting goalposts between the second and third, of the kind Private Eye delights in publishing from time to time.....   - but I digress:

 

What do people want out of a new RTR model? Everything under the sun - to have a model that covers all the bases without the buyer having to do any extra work other than pay for it and putting it on the rails. Dapol have got as close as they can to that ideal position where you need to do very little work, bar rewheeling it to P4, changing headcodes, and maybe installing your preferred coupling system......

 

To re-use an old Eighties slogan -

 

"Dapol: Everything we do...is driven by you."

 

Hopefully when the "must have" frenzy (which belies the economic / financial difficulties that this country is supposed to be in) dies down, the rest of us can go out and buy a Dapol "Western".

Edited March 5, 2013 by Horsetan

[DapolDave]

Dave, In view of your suggestion of St Davids I can but presume that you will telling us shortly which version of the D8XX 'Warship' you will be doing first?

 Unfortunately it wont be a Dapol product, much as i'd have liked it to be.

cheers

Dave

[cctransuk]

... it also strikes me as particularly missing the point to start levelling accusations at the masses when there were already a good twenty or thirty people providing information, photographs and even diagrams, to Dapol, on a regular basis, entirely unpaid and done out of a desire to help create a model they would wish to buy.

 

.....

 

This is a commercial product, and yes - it is up to the company to have hired someone who signs on the final Cad drawings. It is not up to someone unpaid to give up their time to do it for them. That's what research and development is for, that's why companies like Dapol put money aside for that sort of thing, and might I add Dapol are not a charity. They are a business and a going concern, and unless you are suggesting that people donating time and resources to helping Dapol make their models and make their money is comparable to people volunteering to help the Scouts, I'm afraid your criticisms of both those who did give up their time and effort previously, and now, doesn't hold much water.

I am certainly not attacking the masses; my comments were directed at those few who did not contribute to the discussions during the product development period, but who now are criticising the final result. (In which connection it is true that I had assumed that, like me, most people use the View New Content facility. Clearly I was mistaken in doing so).

 

As to the second quote, you miss my point. I believe that we are mistaken in believing that in-house designers can be expected to have detailed knowledge of every project that they undertake. It is not viable for a company to hire a designer expert in each subject, solely for the duration of that single product. The in-house designer will use the information known to him / her. That is how indifferent / inaccurate models have appeared over the years, and still do so.

 

DapolDave recognised these facts and, uniquely, turned to a body of potential customers who would collectively be able to provide extremely detailed prototype information. In doing so, he has produced what I believe to be the (to date) ultimate UK RTR model. I am certain that any in-house designer could not have achieved these standards without the input that RMweb members provided.

 

If all of those who now criticise the model were genuinely unaware of all of the consultation efforts that went into the design process, I apologise. My principle concern is that DapolDave should not be disheartened, and that he will continue to allow us to have input into the design process.

 

In passing, I would make a couple of observations, (not criticisms), on D1000.

 

As seems to be generally agreed, the black surround to the head-code glazing would have been best omitted as it is not possible, apparently, to apply a thin black surround to the apertures.

 

The problems of access to install head-codes was a result of manufacturer assembly error; I understand that future batches will have the intended clip-fit disassembly facility.

 

IMHO, the etched roof panel lifting rings are, with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps a step too far. The idea is excellent, but the scale-sized components seem simply to be too small to be firmly glued in place. My D1000 had lost several in transit, and more have disappeared during minimal handling. I am wholly opposed to Hornby's 'design clever' approach, but a rethink of this aspect of future Dapol D&E models would perhaps be wise.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Michael Delamar]

got 2 threads on the same subject. best to close one?

[the penguin of doom]

Oh, yes. I should love to see someone with your amazing skills tackle the Brassmasters conversion pack for Lima's Western. I have always thought that it looked pretty good; have you seen the gallery on the Brassmasters site?

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/gallery_western.htm

 

Please, pretty please...

 

Cheers,

 

BR(W).

It was the first thing I did BR(W) and I have to say that the conversion seems to make into a very nice looking model.

 

Given that I've no real need for a Western, it could be a good cheap alternative. No dissing the Dapol version, but I could be persuaded.....

 

BTW, thanks for your comment on my skills I was that chuffed I showed your comment to Mrs Penguin.

 

Anywho, back to the Dapol model......

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[Barry Ten]

It was the first thing I did BR(W) and I have to say that the conversion seems to make into a very nice looking model.

 

Given that I've no real need for a Western, it could be a good cheap alternative. No dissing the Dapol version, but I could be persuaded.....

 

 

By the time you've added Ultrascales and white metal front valence castings (not supplied by Brassmasters) the pennies do start to add up though.

[Downendian]

I am certainly not attacking the masses; my comments were directed at those few who did not contribute to the discussions during the product development period, but who now are criticising the final result

Speaking as someone who certainly had my sleeves rolled up during the CAD phase maybe you've missed my earlier point John. Many of the small errors crept in post CAD, and all of these are the ones being discussed. The bodyshell is quite sublime. I haven't seen any criticism of that.

 

My photos earlier were with very little comment so that people can make informed choice. I do wonder though what Heljan will do now- will they continue with Western releases? Not forgetting of course their last batch was late last year.

 

I do see what you mean about the panel lifting rings- I'd rather they were there though a nice touch for those with perfect eyesight.

 

Neil

[the penguin of doom]

By the time you've added Ultrascales and white metal front valence castings (not supplied by Brassmasters) the pennies do start to add up though.

You are of course quite right Barry.

 

Then there's the roof vents etc..... It is however a nice challenge and what I enjoy doing most, hacking things up and sticking bits of metal to them.....

 

I do have a spare Deltic chassis which could yield a transmission and motor and if the bogie wheelbase is the same or similar?.....

 

If I can find a Lima Western cheap enough, that would hopefully offset some of the cost, then I'd only have to find some etched brass roof lifting rings.....

 

Anyone know who produce them?..... ;0)

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[jjnewitt]

I do have a spare Deltic chassis which could yield a transmission and motor and if the bogie wheelbase is the same or similar?.....

 

The Western wheelbase was 6'1" + 6'1" so a good deal smaller than the English Electric 3 axle bogie. As far as I can know there are no other British diesels with a similar wheelbase.

[the penguin of doom]

The Western wheelbase was 6'1" + 6'1" so a good deal smaller than the English Electric 3 axle bogie. As far as I can know there are no other British diesels with a similar wheelbase.

Hmmmn.

 

Thanks JJ.

 

Still, theres a motor and chunky chassis block that's useable.

 

Anywho, as above, back to the Dapol version..... I'll put any Lima based ramblings over on my thread. Before I do theough, if anyone has a, (very), cheap Lima one, please feel free to PM and feed the fire.....

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[jjnewitt]

My green Dapol Western turned up on Saturday and has spent the past few days sat next to my Heljan example. The longer it sits there the worse the Heljan model looks. The Dapol model looks much more like a Western, particularly in the front area. The curves look like they're in the right places which cannot be said of the Heljan ones and I'm not just talking about the infamous 'peak'. The Heljan model looks particularly flat below the cab windows. Some other observations based on what's been written in this thread. Interestingly, after measuring them with a vernier caliper, the openings for the headcode glazing on the Dapol model are actually a tiny bit bigger than the Heljan ones. The hole for the roof fan grill on the Dapol model is 14mm in diameter. They've done the usual RTR thing with etching a surround on the grill so making it smaller. There are areas with which I'm a little disapointed, the main one being the paint finish which is horribly flat and matt. So that's one bit of it that doesn't look like the real thing then. Another is the brakes as the inner shoes have been moulded to the boige detailing and set for OO wheels. No good for P4 conversions or EM ones for that matter. Whilst on wheels I always thought that Western wheels were 3'7" so why aren't the wheels on both the models 14.33mm in diameter?

 

All in all I think it's a fantastic model which with a couple of additions (roof grills and a winscreen etch) and a P4 conversion will certainly do me. Most importantly it looks like a Western. Something that previous models haven't achieved.

 

So if you want top notch out of the box Western buy a Dapol model. If you want a top notch Western and are prepared to do a little work buy the Dapol model as you're going to have to spend a whole heap of time and effort getting any of the others looking this good.

 

Justin

[jjnewitt]

Still, theres a motor and chunky chassis block that's useable.

 

Anywho, as above, back to the Dapol version..... I'll put any Lima based ramblings over on my thread. Before I do theough, if anyone has a, (very), cheap Lima one, please feel free to PM and feed the fire.....

 

If you really want to try sorting the Lima model out Howes currently have spares for the Heljan Western including the bits for the drivetrains.

 

Justin.

[Dogmatix]

My local shop had a green Dapol Western in with sound on the weekend - looked and sounded top trumps.

 

With sound? Dapol do a sound version?

[Barry Ten]

With sound? Dapol do a sound version?

 

No, I think it was sound fitted by the shop (Lord & Butler for what it's worth - usual disclaimer etc).

[the-gog]

No, I think it was sound fitted by the shop (Lord & Butler for what it's worth - usual disclaimer etc).

http://www.lordandbutler.com/lordandbutler.com/Western_Invader.html

 

"Features 5 pole motor with flywheel /Directional lighting /Etched roof grills /DCC/DCC Sound ready/Fully detailed exterior brake gear and outstanding levels of detail/ Etched Name and Numberplates (supplied loose)."

[Barry Ten]

http://www.lordandbutler.com/lordandbutler.com/Western_Invader.html

 

"Features 5 pole motor with flywheel /Directional lighting /Etched roof grills /DCC/DCC Sound ready/Fully detailed exterior brake gear and outstanding levels of detail/ Etched Name and Numberplates (supplied loose)."

 

This was just the standard issue green one rather than L&B's own limited edition of Western Invader, which isn't due in for a while. Looked great, to my eyes, although the finish (as noted elsewhere) is perhaps a bit too matt for my tastes. Wouldn't stop me buying one, if I didn't already have a green Western, but I prefer a satin finish as a basis for further weathering.

[S.A.C Martin]

When I read the three posts above, I did wonder whether there might just be a touch of the shifting goalposts between the second and third, of the kind Private Eye delights in publishing from time to time.....   - but I digress:

 

Up to you to read into that Ivan, it certainly wasn't my intention to, ah, "move the goalposts" but on reflection I can see your train of thought.

 

The problem with comparing those three posts is that they're not in the same context. First and second are about the ridiculous negative reaction to a thoroughly positive review, which I still take issue with. The third is about being discerning, looking at models and being detail conscious for accuracy, and giving constructive criticism where appropriate and necessary in the best possible manner, which is a positive side to model railways in my view, and was borne out by the thoroughly positive response in the original Dapol Western Cads thread.

 

 

I am certainly not attacking the masses; my comments were directed at those few who did not contribute to the discussions during the product development period, but who now are criticising the final result. (In which connection it is true that I had assumed that, like me, most people use the View New Content facility. Clearly I was mistaken in doing so).

 

The thing is, two different people will look at the same CAD drawings and come out with different views. In any event, it has been explained that most of the changes and possible pitfalls are post-CAD stage, so it's not as if anyone who is critiquing the model now could have changed anything. It was past the point of no return.

 

 

As to the second quote, you miss my point. I believe that we are mistaken in believing that in-house designers can be expected to have detailed knowledge of every project that they undertake. It is not viable for a company to hire a designer expert in each subject, solely for the duration of that single product. The in-house designer will use the information known to him / her. That is how indifferent / inaccurate models have appeared over the years, and still do so.

 

I don't expect Dapol (or any other manufacturer to that end) to have Western experts or otherwise in house: but equally you cannot expect every single Western fan or expert out there to offer their help freely with no compensation available. it's not their job to research the model for the manufacturer. That's what their research and development teams are for, and they are paid to go and seek out, and speak to said experts to fine tune the CAD drawings.

 

 

DapolDave recognised these facts and, uniquely, turned to a body of potential customers who would collectively be able to provide extremely detailed prototype information. In doing so, he has produced what I believe to be the (to date) ultimate UK RTR model. I am certain that any in-house designer could not have achieved these standards without the input that RMweb members provided.

 

If all of those who now criticise the model were genuinely unaware of all of the consultation efforts that went into the design process, I apologise. My principle concern is that DapolDave should not be disheartened, and that he will continue to allow us to have input into the design process.

 

I'm scratching my head as to how DapolDave could be disheartened. He's had terrific feedback in the construction stage and in the review stage. Yes, there are some potential detail pitfalls, but no model is ever absolutely spot on for prototype (the one which comes closest for me is Bachmann's DP1, but a friend who is much more knowledgable about Deltics and DP1 in particular disagrees entirely with me, so there you go), and what's good for one modeller won't be for another. The Dapol Western has pleased most of the major magazines with very high scores, and everyone on here actually agrees its the best Western yet.

 

The only thing which has taken the sheen off the Dapol Western for me was the (in my view unwarranted) criticism of Model Rail's review, but DapolDave was big enough to apologise publicly for his part, to which I salute him for that. Job's a good'un otherwise as far as I can see. 

 

 

In passing, I would make a couple of observations, (not criticisms), on D1000.

 

As seems to be generally agreed, the black surround to the head-code glazing would have been best omitted as it is not possible, apparently, to apply a thin black surround to the apertures.

 

The problems of access to install head-codes was a result of manufacturer assembly error; I understand that future batches will have the intended clip-fit disassembly facility.

 

IMHO, the etched roof panel lifting rings are, with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps a step too far. The idea is excellent, but the scale-sized components seem simply to be too small to be firmly glued in place. My D1000 had lost several in transit, and more have disappeared during minimal handling. I am wholly opposed to Hornby's 'design clever' approach, but a rethink of this aspect of future Dapol D&E models would perhaps be wise.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

That's the sort of thing I think adds to the discussion: carefully worded, constructive criticism which Dapol can take or leave as they please, but at least they are aware of it and can act or not based on a genuine post intended to help aid the discussion.