RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 Bit of info from a friend who produces etched kits as part of his range. He uses a large company for the etches which also supplies several other small railway producers. He put in an order and was contacted before it was processed due to the cost of the etches doubling, consequently he reduced his order and has had to add around 10-20% to the cost of kits depending on their proportion of etched parts. Obviously small suppliers who only stock a few of each kit are going to have to pass this on fairly quickly as there is no back stock to sell off. Just thought I'd warn people it's the supply chain rather than the little guys who use this supplier. My friend hasn't looked elsewhere as the quality and guaranteed supply is more important than the potential problems of moving all his artwork to a new and unknown company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Barry Ten Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 A kit supplier (who also mentioned the increase in etching cost) also told me that the cost of white metal has gone up tremendously since 2008, more than doubling. The net result is that he has no option but to increase the price of his kits, just to stay afloat. The difficulty, as he says, is that he knows that some of his customers won't be able to afford to buy as much from him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hi. That is very interesting as I am looking at getting some parts for a kit I am planing etched. That said the first batch may be for around 60-80 kits. That said this is still a small order to these larger companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I think this is/was inevitable given all the inflationary pressures - not least of which is the rising cost of metal. but "doubling" looks a bit more like "we no longer want your business". The problem I always have with kit prices is that they can vary so much from one kit producer to the next. This would be understandable if it was based on quality but it rarely seems to be. Some loco kits with prices around the £40-£50 mark which are excellently designed and contain really comprehensive instructions have always looked cheap compared to other kits of the same excellence priced at £100 tto £150. Then there are some kits at this higher price that are not really worth £25 ! I get the impression that the end consumer price of a kit rarely reflects the true costs of production. Then we have the separate issue of the cost of additional detailing "kits" - does it cost nearly as much as a complete loco kit to produce these - I don't think so ... and then there is the cost of etched nameplates ! But I guess in the end it all comes down to the same choices we make. Do I continue to buy kits if the price of them doubled - yes, it is my hobby - but I may buy less and use more from the "treasure box". I may well become more selective - less rubbish and more of the kits that I know will build as intended and as instructed. I think the worst thing is that it might lead to more "businesses" retiring possibly taking more kits into the graveyard where the likes of Impetus Kits have gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ngtrains.com Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 Prices for everything are certainly going up. I use more than one etching company mainly for historic reasons of origins of kits in our range but I haven't seen as much as doubling although the actual material cost of N/S is just going up and up. I wonder if the etch firm originally mentioned as doubling the prices is the one I am thinking of. Initially, we had all our etches done by this company but, compared to others, they are much more of an industrial operation and I suspect p&ssing around with the small orders from model railway types is now too much of a distraction. If it is who I think it is a glance at their website shows they are into aerospace and other expensive pursuits Whilst their prices were going up the twist we found with them was the minimum order charge which pretty much ruled out having a photo tool made and one sheet etched as a test as the min order charge was a lot higher than the actual cost. What its meant for us is that we now put no new business their way because having developed an etch with a company that still charges for what they do without any of this min order nonsense it makes sense to have them do the production runs Paul Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I think this is/was inevitable given all the inflationary pressures - not least of which is the rising cost of metal. but "doubling" looks a bit more like "we no longer want your business". The problem I always have with kit prices is that they can vary so much from one kit producer to the next. This would be understandable if it was based on quality but it rarely seems to be. Some loco kits with prices around the £40-£50 mark which are excellently designed and contain really comprehensive instructions have always looked cheap compared to other kits of the same excellence priced at £100 tto £150. Then there are some kits at this higher price that are not really worth £25 ! I get the impression that the end consumer price of a kit rarely reflects the true costs of production. Then we have the separate issue of the cost of additional detailing "kits" - does it cost nearly as much as a complete loco kit to produce these - I don't think so ... and then there is the cost of etched nameplates ! Pretty much impossible to sell an etched loco kit for £25 now unless its a tiny prototype or you'd be making a loss on the etching costs alone for the sheets not even taking into account tooling or postage! Many kits do not reflect the full cost of production as the time element is not taken into account. Detailing kits can cost more than a full loco kit actually in time and effort. Its a lot easier to start from scratch! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted March 23, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 23, 2011 Interesting what Paul says as I suspect he is talking about the same company, never known them to demand a minimum order maybe it's because their relationship goes back nearly 20 years? Yes they are into all levels of industrial production but they still have a good personal touch and it's the artwork master that costs a lot but then they are prepared to do step and repeats in that cost so they are pretty flexible. In my experience good etch kits come from those who actually build kits and know the shortcomings of certain designs rather than just designing them on pc or paper no matter how good the tolerances on fit in theory. I can see why EDM bought the Agenoria range as the couple of kits I built were good and complement Pauls own quality though I haven't built one yet despite drooling over the FR hunslets! Trying to stay with G for UK narrow gauge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hmmmm....etched kits produced in China? Seeing as that's where much of the metal is going anyway...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Kenton : The problem I always have with kit prices is that they can vary so much from one kit producer to the next. This would be understandable if it was based on quality but it rarely seems to be. A lousy bit of artwork costs the same to produce as good artwork. Another factor is whether kits are stock etchings or whether they where produced recently. It should be a well known fact to those in the trade that China has been busy rounding up metals for the past 3-4 years. As already pointed out, nickel silver has shot skywards, but so too has whitemetal and lost-wax casting. Even boxes are expensive nowadays. Add to this the massive rise in tool costs (the negative for etching) and one really has to do ones figures before submitting artwork for etching. An additional factor in my business is the cost of paint. Horsetan : Hmmmm....etched kits produced in China? Seeing as that's where much of the metal is going anyway...... Neat idea but I wonder what the cost of sending back a weighty package of 15 2' x 1' brass sheets is...B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2011 I can confirm that my whitemetal has gone up by 20% in the last 6 months. If memory serves right it has gone up by 14 times since 1992. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Pretty much impossible to sell an etched loco kit for £25 now unless its a tiny prototype or you'd be making a loss on the etching costs alone for the sheets not even taking into account tooling or postage! I was not saying that a good kit should be only worth £25. On the contrary, I was making the point that there are some very good kits which cost less than double that which ARE worth a lot more. My expectation is to pay about £100-£150 for a good loco kit in 4mm but I do expect it to be good. It is always possible to "sell" a loco kit for £25 - it may cost more to make it but is that kit worth it? I just don't understand the pricing/value relationship which often seems completely inverted. I still can't see why a detailing "kit" to cost more/almost as much than a kit with all the detailing - the time taken for the artwork is less and the amount of brass is less. Hmmmm....etched kits produced in China? Seeing as that's where much of the metal is going anyway...... I guess there would be problems with language, communication, shipping ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2011 The price of kits is linked to two main things. The time taken to produce the artwork and the number sold. It takes just as long to draw a rubbish kit as it does perfection so they expect to earn the same. I am pretty certain the demand has gone down. I have never got on with other peoples etched kits despite designing them. I have recently bought a couple of kits that I want to change my layout from ready to run to a distinct character of its own and I've already identified bits that I would like to replace with my own etchings. In fact it would probably be better to have started from scratch, but having somebody elses kit to start off from does have some advantages. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium finelines Posted March 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2011 The price of kits is linked to two main things. The time taken to produce the artwork and the number sold. It takes just as long to draw a rubbish kit as it does perfection so they expect to earn the same. I am pretty certain the demand has gone down. I have never got on with other peoples etched kits despite designing them. I have recently bought a couple of kits that I want to change my layout from ready to run to a distinct character of its own and I've already identified bits that I would like to replace with my own etchings. In fact it would probably be better to have started from scratch, but having somebody elses kit to start off from does have some advantages. Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The price of kits is linked to two main things. The time taken to produce the artwork and the number sold. But it doesn't appear to be so. Either that or as with my example some are extremely fast workers and others extremely slow. I have never got on with other peoples etched kits despite designing them. I have recently bought a couple of kits that I want to change my layout from ready to run to a distinct character of its own and I've already identified bits that I would like to replace with my own etchings. In fact it would probably be better to have started from scratch, but having somebody elses kit to start off from does have some advantages. For most of us who build the kits this is not an option. We depend on the kit as designed to be build-able and that it should go together without having to employ any scratch building skills. Am I also alone in thinking that the basics of kit design (fold lines that work, tabs that cut, and the complex calculations of size - one part actually fits where it should go) have all been taken care of. As for a kit being released without a test build (preferably by someone who didn't design it and of average skill) are we just expecting too much? Sometimes I distinctly get the impression that the designers have never built anything but their own kit and as such often do not think outside the box in their design principles. An example of this is on my bench this morning - the formation of a box with a gabled roof and one side with lots of perforations. Most experienced kit builders would expect to be given 2 etched parts, one consisting of all four sides of the box as a fold up with the perforated side in the middle, and the "roof" as a single fold - easy to build: fold up the sides and join the seam away from the perforations, then fold and add the roof. Instead I have a fold-over roof and two plain sides with the two other sides separate. The gables on the sides were incorrectly calculated as the outside length of the roof so the sides do not fit without substantial removal: it should be the inside edge after folding. Also the side with the perforations is subjected to solder flow from all 4 edges. All in all 2/10 - could and should know better. The end result is a mess as the pure shape of the side etches are lost through applying a file simply to make it fit - might as well have scratch built it. I'm not for one moment saying the job of designing is easy, but ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Taking kits, it seems as if manufacturers copy ideas from other kits and replicate things that do not make kit construction any easier for anyone. The features I hate most are those that make life difficult further down the construction line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The price of kits is linked to two main things. The time taken to produce the artwork and the number sold. It takes just as long to draw a rubbish kit as it does perfection so they expect to earn the same. I am pretty certain the demand has gone down. Roger Roger, your first sentence is absolutely correct if the designer's time is properly accounted for, but why you would consider the second to be true I can't understand. To do anything in a slipshod fashion is invariably quicker than to do it correctly. If you then take into account building a test model and a redesign as appropriate, then it will take even longer. Proper accounting procedures are rarely used in kit manufacture. Pricing can be based on the material costs, plus margins for overheads, etc., on the "so and so charges X for a 0-6-0 tender loco" I'll do the same (market pricing), or any other means including the finger in the air method. All we can be sure of is that increased material cost will filter through to higher kit prices. How much that will be will largely depend on the kit producers approach to pricing. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hmmmm....etched kits produced in China? Seeing as that's where much of the metal is going anyway...... Ivan, one of the large (in the model railway kit world) etchers recently told me that they were getting an large increase in business coming back from customers who had previously moved to Chinese suppliers. He considered this to be down to a number of factors, including "deteriorating business relationships", considerably increased labour costs, "language difficulties", etc. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Likewise I'm seeing sharp rises in the prices of brass, not so bad for nickel silver at the moment, there was a huge difference between the two but they are now close. White metal has also gone through the roof. RTR models also appear to be heading skywards. The actual shop prices of N scale coaches seem to have doubled in about four years. I'm getting very close to going to Brum and taking all the remaining artwork off Chempix/Precision Micro and sending it elsewhere because of their new minimum order policies and relatively slow turnaround. Quality wise they are probably the best in the business but their focus is clearly not on small modelling businesses, and I can't really blame them on that point. Fortunately N generally uses about 1/6th of the material that OO does. Proper accounting procedures are rarely used in kit manufacture That's not entirely true - the taxman doesn't take finger in the air tax returns. I've certainly got proper FIFO per unit costings and stock counts, because Mr Taxman wants proper stock valuations and Ultima carries several hundred lines of bits. I'm really glad of it too at this point as it's the only way to keep a sane handle on the price shifts. Now I grant its certainly true that in many model businesses the accountant got a large envelope and did the numbers ! The big postage hikes are also going to bite very soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etched Pixels Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Hi. That is very interesting as I am looking at getting some parts for a kit I am planing etched. That said the first batch may be for around 60-80 kits. That said this is still a small order to these larger companies. People like PPD still do small orders. They don't have the range of things Chempix do, their etching isn't quite as precision in depth but they will do small orders, they'll ship small stuff by sensible (cheaper) postal services and the service is excellent. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 But it doesn't appear to be so. Either that or as with my example some are extremely fast workers and others extremely slow. For most of us who build the kits this is not an option. We depend on the kit as designed to be build-able and that it should go together without having to employ any scratch building skills. Am I also alone in thinking that the basics of kit design (fold lines that work, tabs that cut, and the complex calculations of size - one part actually fits where it should go) have all been taken care of. As for a kit being released without a test build (preferably by someone who didn't design it and of average skill) are we just expecting too much? Sometimes I distinctly get the impression that the designers have never built anything but their own kit and as such often do not think outside the box in their design principles. I'd say so yes. I think most people make it up as they go along when etching and if they try a 2nd time really depends on if they build the first one or look at it and think 'looks ok'.. There are 'rules' that you can follow (though the ones published in MRJ recently would make all my work impossible!) but you sometimes still find you need to fudge some areas and try again. Etching isn't perfect either so you generally need some play in itfrom what i've tried. I'd suggest you show us your results following the rules and see what you come up with and how long it takes. I must admit I went for the 'how much are they charging?' method of pricing when doing my chassis kits for wagons . It does mean I can tool some less popular stuff and get it tested though there are no labour costs included or profits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I'd suggest you show us your results following the rules and see what you come up with and how long it takes. In the example given I could (and have already put up the results) - they are not pretty even by my standards - that is because it resulted in a botch job. If I were designing the kit (or redesigning it) I would have proceeded as explained. I recognise that the errors in the size are easy to make and are minute. 1mm here/there can make all the difference between an easy build and one requiring a contortionist and more refined skills of a scratch builder. It is easy for me to say though as I have not designed a kit. I just (try) build them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 In the example given I could (and have already put up the results) - they are not pretty even by my standards - that is because it resulted in a botch job. It is easy for me to say though as I have not designed a kit. I just (try) build them. Yes I had meant the results of your kit designs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 .....large increase in business coming back from customers who had previously moved to Chinese suppliers. He considered this to be down to a number of factors, including "deteriorating business relationships", considerably increased labour costs, "language difficulties", etc. Deteriorating quality maybe? That book I read wasn't joking..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Yes I had meant the results of your kit designs. I can't quite see the point though. Are you suggesting that only fellow kit designer has the right experience to be critical of the designer of a kit and his sometimes peculiar ways of designing ? Because, if so, I find that is part of the problem. The person designing the kit sometimes fails to understand the kit building process and simply lives in their own design world. They often do not even build the kits they design and certainly do not take feedback from the average kit builder. This often results in or is accompanied by poor instructions or at its worse parts that do not fit without considerable fettling (a whole waste of the etching process) or even half-etched fold lines on the wrong side (one famous example springs to mind). I can see from the designer's point of view this test approach adds considerable delays to the release of the kit during which time sales can be made. Also from their point of view, perhaps, they really only take the attitude that the kits are simply scratch aids (considerably more work is required to get them to a completed unit) But sometimes the designing seems to be more of an intellectual exercise in design than something practical. Don't get me wrong, there are many really excellent kits out there and that many older kits were compromised by the technology available to the designer. ... perhaps in a few cases a bad design that can be worked around is better than nothing ... but I often wonder how many half-built kits are lying around unfinished simply because they went slightly wrong in the design stage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted March 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24, 2011 Deteriorating quality maybe? That book I read wasn't joking..... Having worked with Chinese suppliers to a major telecomms. OEM then it's not something I'd want to entertain for very low volume business like etched kits. Even if you could find suppliers dealing in the low volumes, it takes a good deal of time and frequently air miles to build up a working relationship that actually works. This is all grist to the mill for a big international company, but would be impractical for the volumes of business we are talking about here. Once the product and production line is specified down to the minutest detail and running properly, with all component parts, raw materials and processes specified down to the minutest detail, that it can work well; but it can take years not days Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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