Etching price rises

[finelines]

We seem to be moving away from the increasing cost of etchings. Perhaps a more general discussion should be started in another heading. I will just add a few points.

 

It is one of those things everybody seems to think is easy and they can do it. Having produced a successful etch they then feel they are an expert. Probably the best experts are the end users.

 

I think the only article I have ever read that explained the basics of etching was written by Stuart Hine in a Model Railways in the 70s. I sometimes wonder whether some of these articles are plants to put people onto the wrong track!

 

If you want to make a kit for yourself, assuming you get everything right first time, you should get one for the cost of a mid range kit.

 

Roger

[coachmann]

The person designing the kit sometimes fails to understand the kit building process and simply lives in their own design world. They often do not even build the kits they design and certainly do not take feedback from the average kit builder.

I couldn't agree more. I would say the best "kits" are those designed by and for the companies themselves to build in quantity as rtr models. If more kit manufacturers built more of their own kits, they would recognise the weaknesses that the poor purchaser has to deal with.

 

The sting in the tail is down to cost though. Each new tool adds to the cost and complications arise when modifications to odd parts leads to multiple purchases of sheets just to obtain all the parts plus updated parts to complete a kit. I would guess it is too late for some manufacturers to have a re-think when their range has been steadily growing over a good number of years.

 

EDIT : While typing this, Finelines got is post in, and so there is some shared agreement.

[Etched Pixels]

They often do not even build the kits they design and certainly do not take feedback from the average kit builder.

 

I certainly build mine - but in a way it doesn't always help. Sure it proves it actually fits together but you inevitably design kits the way you find them easy to build, which isn't always the same as others. Getting others to test build them definitely helps.

 

The "average kit builder" is also a myth. Not only do people have a lot of widely different skill levels they also have different abilities, strengths and weaknesses and I don't think you can please or reflect all of them at once unfortunately.

 

Alan

[finelines]

I go along with everything Alan says.

 

Roger

[Kenton]

If you want to make a kit for yourself, assuming you get everything right first time, you should get one for the cost of a mid range kit.

But this brings me back to my main point on pricing - The price of a kit is not reflected in its value in terms of easy or completeness of build. I keep coming back to this point because I can think of at least one very good kit supplier who, if would be kit builders took the "mid range" cost approach would ignore his kits as "cheap" (by comparison) that would be a big mistake.

 

 

The "average kit builder" is also a myth.

I would classify myself as "average" by no means a top professional, but probably able to handle anything the kit designer is able to throw at me. But unable (or more really unwilling) to do anything that approaches scratch building. If a part is etched to the correct size it should fit without having to ile off some undefined mm or two, I expect a fold line to fold inwards unless instructed otherwise, i expect to be able to actually get the parts off the fret in one piece, I expect etched holes to be there and smaller than the item that fits through them, and if you really must use slot'n'tab etch the slots big enough to take the tab. And, for heaven's sake tell me what the parts on the etch are and where they are supposed to go. I very rarely stick to exact order of construction as in the mind of the designer, but I also rarely deviate far - and when I do it is either from experience of building the kit before or prior knowledge of a similar kit - but then I know it is my fault if I go wrong.

 

There are recognised costs in getting all this right but back to the original point again - why can some manufacturers do and others can't - is it just their approach to the customer? It certainly isn't just the cost of the metal or the etching process.

[Mallard60022]

 

I would classify myself as "average" by no means a top professional, but probably able to handle anything the kit designer is able to throw at me. But unable (or more really unwilling) to do anything that approaches scratch building. If a part is etched to the correct size it should fit without having to ile off some undefined mm or two, I expect a fold line to fold inwards unless instructed otherwise, i expect to be able to actually get the parts off the fret in one piece, I expect etched holes to be there and smaller than the item that fits through them, and if you really must use slot'n'tab etch the slots big enough to take the tab. And, for heaven's sake tell me what the parts on the etch are and where they are supposed to go. I very rarely stick to exact order of construction as in the mind of the designer, but I also rarely deviate far - and when I do it is either from experience of building the kit before or prior knowledge of a similar kit - but then I know it is my fault if I go wrong.

There are recognised costs in getting all this right but back to the original point again - why can some manufacturers do and others can't - is it just their approach to the customer? It certainly isn't just the cost of the metal or the etching process.

 

Oh yes. Totally agree.

36E

[hollywoodfoundry]

We seem to be moving away from the increasing cost of etchings. Perhaps a more general discussion should be started in another heading. I will just add a few points.

 

I think the only article I have ever read that explained the basics of etching was written by Stuart Hine in a Model Railways in the 70s. I sometimes wonder whether some of these articles are plants to put people onto the wrong track!

 

Roger

 

You might like to have a look at this series of articles: http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/HowToPapers.shtm

 

When designing frets for kits, I number each item by placing a number inside a circle on the fret, then place an arrow pointing to the actual item. I also say how many there should be, as in '4 x 24', meaning you should find 4 pieces of part number 24. In the assembly text, there is a list of these numbers with a description of the part as well.

 

As for testing the etch, I send them to a small number of friends and ask them to assemble the kit and advise if they had any difficulties. I have actually got to the point of a revision 6 to get all of the problems resolved. In that case I was not happy with the way an item came out, and completely re-designed it to make it easier to assemble.

 

However there is one variable not yet mentioned, etching time. I have produced carefully designed items that work fine through all the prototype stages, then when the production items were delivered, they were under-etched and many of the parts did not fit as intended. These days I send them back and ask for them to be re-done. And some of these have come from a certain well known etching company alluded to earlier.

[Chris Higgs]

However there is one variable not yet mentioned, etching time. I have produced carefully designed items that work fine through all the prototype stages, then when the production items were delivered, they were under-etched and many of the parts did not fit as intended. These days I send them back and ask for them to be re-done. And some of these have come from a certain well known etching company alluded to earlier.

 

Indeed. With my kits this can result in tabs that do not fit into slots as expected, and which is sometimes in border-line cases difficult to detect until you come to build the thing. The alternative sometimes seems to be to make the slots so large they will cope with this inconsistency regardless, which means you end up with a kit with sloppy and sometimes unsightly fit. Sadly the customers do not always appreciate this, and simply think you have messed up the design.

 

I have also noted that the etcher I use has equipment that means sheets are more under-etched on the edges than in the middle, which i have even managed to use to my advantage on occasion by deciding how to lay out the etched sheet. But normally it is just a pain.

 

Chris

[Jol Wilkinson]

We seem to be moving away from the increasing cost of etchings. Perhaps a more general discussion should be started in another heading. I will just add a few points.

 

It is one of those things everybody seems to think is easy and they can do it. Having produced a successful etch they then feel they are an expert. Probably the best experts are the end users.

 

I think the only article I have ever read that explained the basics of etching was written by Stuart Hine in a Model Railways in the 70s. I sometimes wonder whether some of these articles are plants to put people onto the wrong track!

 

If you want to make a kit for yourself, assuming you get everything right first time, you should get one for the cost of a mid range kit.

 

Roger

 

There was also a good article on artwork design by Bob Williams (who helped his father build Aylesbury, the EM layout advertsied for sale in MRJ 204)in Model Railways in the 1980's.

 

Iain Rices "Etched loco kit contruction" - Wild Swan - also has a detailed section on photo etching, featuring Photo Etch Consultants who do a lot of work in the model world.

[Kenton]

Indeed. With my kits this can result in tabs that do not fit into slots as expected, and which is sometimes in border-line cases difficult to detect until you come to build the thing.

I can see this as a problem for the designer (the variability of the etching process/company SC) and something they have little control over. But I presume these companies have certain standards - a set of tolerances they can guarantee to meet?

 

Oversize tabs is an easy fix for the builder (file the bloomin' things right off) too many kits come with them where they serve no real purpose and simply mess up what would otherwise be a perfect join. Under-size slots on the other-hand are no use to anyone, it being virtually impossible to open out you are forced to file off the tabs and so back to the "why bother" etching in the first place.

[finelines]

I stand corrected! It may have been the article you refer to that I remember because if it was the early 80s it was when I produced my first etchings. I remember the layout being sold in the MRJ.

 

Having been at Art School with Iain, I tend to buy or browse his books to see what my long lost friend has been up to. But I don't ever remember even browsing this one.

 

Roger

[finelines]

Kenton, you wrote earlier that you don't like scratchbuilding, but you seem to hate tabs and slots. Surely a kit without tabs and slots is almost scratchbuilding?

 

I agree if you are going to put them on they should fit!

 

Roger

[Kenton]

Kenton, you wrote earlier that you don't like scratchbuilding, but you seem to hate tabs and slots. Surely a kit without tabs and slots is almost scratchbuilding?

No, not in the slightest - I don't like them because they are generally not required where they are used. The better kits IMO do not use them as a design default, and I think they often do no real help to the builder. Edge to edge joins are perfectly possible with good soldering technique and edge to flat joins 'T' even easier. Where alignment is critical then maybe, but they often seem to be used just for the sake of it.

 

.. but being forced into the position to have to file them off simply because they do not fit in the slot provided and then to have to fill the slot - then that is having to use scratch building AFAIC - the having to file off invariably results in a poor edge, out of shape/curved and filing in the redundant slot a messy solder (or filler) fill that requires sanding. It is obvious that the production of the slot and tab is difficult to get right in the etching process (possibly beyond the designer's control) so why design them in?

 

I would rather a designer started from the principle they are not required and then use them as a last resort when the build would be impossible without them.

[craigwelsh]

I can see this as a problem for the designer (the variability of the etching process/company SC) and something they have little control over. But I presume these companies have certain standards - a set of tolerances they can guarantee to meet?

Not most of the ones used for modelling, they normally keep more of an eye on a kit in the bath than a business card though. The company I use manually dunks and times it with a stopwatch..

 

Some of the Shawplan stuff is really pushing the limits of the etching process!

 

Length of slot isn't much of an issue, its always the width that underetching can really muck up.

 

My batches of chassis etches and brakes varied a bit over the 60 sheets i've had so far. Only had two sets of 'scrap' though which has been pretty good.

 

I leave numbers off my sheets and just number a scan in the instructions, saves production costs for me tbh.

[finelines]

Are you following Arthurs Workshop? I like what he does.

 

Roger

[Kenton]

I leave numbers off my sheets and just number a scan in the instructions, saves production costs for me tbh.

A perfectly adequate solution that does the job - the numbers then used in the instructions to identify the parts and give hem some sort of name. In today's world of scanners, cameras and word processing should be simple.

[Chris Higgs]

Oversize tabs is an easy fix for the builder (file the bloomin' things right off) too many kits come with them where they serve no real purpose and simply mess up what would otherwise be a perfect join. Under-size slots on the other-hand are no use to anyone, it being virtually impossible to open out you are forced to file off the tabs and so back to the "why bother" etching in the first place.

 

A fellow ethcer and builder showed me how to make a tool to open out slots from a piece of the etch scrap itself - file a chisel on the end and it can then be forced into slots. Probably won't work with anything much over 10 thou though.

 

I have seen slots on kits that were so large to avoid this probalem that you had to fill a gaping gap with solder.

 

Chris

[Chris Higgs]

Oversize tabs is an easy fix for the builder (file the bloomin' things right off) too many kits come with them where they serve no real purpose and simply mess up what would otherwise be a perfect join. Under-size slots on the other-hand are no use to anyone, it being virtually impossible to open out you are forced to file off the tabs and so back to the "why bother" etching in the first place.

 

A fellow ethcer and builder showed me how to make a tool to open out slots from a piece of the etch scrap itself - file a chisel on the end and it can then be forced into slots. Probably won't work with anything much over 10 thou though.

 

I have seen slots on kits that were so large to avoid this probalem that you had to fill a gaping gap with solder.

 

Chris

[finelines]

It shouldn't need to, but it does. Once you get thicker you are in scalpel country.

 

Roger

[finelines]

Ps all this etching talk is making me want to get out some of my old ideas and see if they work.

 

Roger

[ArthurK]

Although again straying away from the originnal topic of cost. I would like to comment on the methods of etched kit construction. I have built other peoples kits over many years and I now know what I (personally) like and dislike. Some were good or very good, others reasonable and others just downright awful.

I do not like those which have little or no location for the bits being assembled. This is why I am drawn to tab and slot which gets over the problem. There is of course a proviso to this - the slots must be in the right place, the right size and of adequate, but not oversize, width. A tightish slot is, to me, far better than a sloppy one. I have seen those on kits supplied by "leading" manufactures. I had one case where the slot was about three time the metal thickness. There is no excuse for that. Having said all that how many tabs should one have? On a small side tank I would normally have three along the side, another one one, possibly two, on the bunker (if is the same etch as the tank side) and also on at the tank front to give very positive fore and aft location. The tank front, top inner side and any of the tank carried through to form cab interior detail are in a single piece of etch with fold lines (etch inside the fold). Not much room for construction error.

Of course all this can lead to possibility of mistakes so test build(s) is(are) a must. I will not release a etch until I am personally happy that it does all fit in a way that most builders can assemble. As an aside, I have had etches for the NER S2 (LNER B15) on the books for about 3-4 years. This is a very difficult design project and has gone through six test stages. It is currently in its seventh. Not until I am happy will I release this for sale.

I welcome comments and suggestions on how I could things better. I have always had problems with the flare and coal rails on NER tenders. Somewhere the must be a better, and easier, solution.

 

I number all parts on the fret and also provide a list of those parts with the instructions.

 

Back to the original topic. Yes the cost of etching has increased in the few years that I have doing these etches. The cost of the films has gone up 20-25% etching costs by the same or higher and of couse the recent increase in VAT has also added to the overall cost.

 

Still I will keep on trying to please.

 

Arthur

[Jordan-Leeds]

This is fast becoming the most interesting topic that RMweb has to offer so thankyou!

[Chris Higgs]

I number all parts on the fret and also provide a list of those parts with the instructions.

 

I tend to supply a blown up picture of the etch together with annotations. Numbering the parts on the etch for 2mm kits can be a bit of a trial to see!

 

Chris

[finelines]

 

Some of the Shawplan stuff is really pushing the limits of the etching process!

 

Please could you point me in the direction of a picture, I haven't needed to use any of their bits.

 

Roger

[Kenton]

Some of the Shawplan stuff is really pushing the limits of the etching process!

 

I think another example of pushing the process to the limit are the recently discussed Frogmore Confederacy kits.

I think this etch - just one example seems to push things to their extreme. Superb well-positioned, fine tags and (yes, finelines there are slot and tabs), nice half-etched detail and well designed fold up and over parts, and just look at all that brass etched away that must be difficult to control.

A very well designed etch - despite the slot'n'tab approach

 

This is quite a challenging kit to build for the inexperienced the biggest problem is the use of too much solder and ruining the planking. But it is a relatively inexpensive kit and fun to build.