Jintyman Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hi All, Being new to track building, I thought I'd better put on here how I do the switch rails at the tie bar end, as it may be wrong!!! I leave the tie bar as free as I can, to the extent that I actually draw a fine file across the underneath of the stock rail at the point where the tie bar goes. I then utilise the locking of a Cobalt point motor to hold the switch rail firmly against the stock rail. I only file a tiny amount, as I don't want to cause the switch rail to lift any, it's just so it's free. Also, I'm the same as Gordon, I don't pre-curve my rail, I just go by eye and the Templot plan. If what I'm doing is wrong, please feel free to say. Jinty ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 There's nothing wrong with relieving the stock rail, although I have never found it necessary. I've found that most of the drag comes either the switch blades moving across the sleepers, hence my tweak of lifting them slightly with a piece of 120gsm cartridge paper or from the natural burrs that can occur when the slitting saw used to cut the 4mm strips is less than 100%. Thankfully the C & L strips are good in that respect. I found a few with excessive burrs a year or so back, but they were exchanged without any fuss at all. The latest shipments I have had have all been fine. If I feel a small burr on the edge of the strip, I use a flat needle file at an angle along the length to clean it completely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I recall that in an article in MRJ, the author (Norman Solomon or John Hayes, I suspect, but more likely Norman) advised using a mirror and look along the reflection of the line of the curve as one would get a better view of any inadequacies of the flow of the track. Personally, I always try to use a longer piece of rail than the curve I'm trying to create (OK, this won't work for obvious reasons on long curves, but on points it will) so I have a straight piece of rail at each end of the curve. The natural spring of the rail will then allow for a flowing curve - and I believe it will also create the transition curve quite naturally. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Hi All, Being new to track building, I thought I'd better put on here how I do the switch rails at the tie bar end, as it may be wrong!!! I leave the tie bar as free as I can, to the extent that I actually draw a fine file across the underneath of the stock rail at the point where the tie bar goes. I then utilise the locking of a Cobalt point motor to hold the switch rail firmly against the stock rail. I only file a tiny amount, as I don't want to cause the switch rail to lift any, it's just so it's free. Also, I'm the same as Gordon, I don't pre-curve my rail, I just go by eye and the Templot plan. If what I'm doing is wrong, please feel free to say. Jinty ;-) Jinty I finish my switch blades with wet and dry to get them smooth, nothing wrong with having them nice and free in movement, just be carefull nothing pushes the tie bar upwards lifting the switch blades above the stock rails. Also I find that the rail takes on a slight curve (possibly in storage) use it to work for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 4, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2015 It may surprise you to learn that I never curve the rail before soldering. The pre-curve or not? question generally depends on the type of rail and the construction method. For bullhead rail in soldered construction with the rail vertical there isn't generally any need to pre-curve the rail for the sort of radii which Gordon uses. For much tighter radii it can help. But if you are not careful it can be a hindrance because it is difficult to pre-curve the ends of a length of rail to match the middle part, which makes laying it to a constant curve trickier than starting with straight rail. Flat-bottom rail has much greater lateral stiffness than bullhead, so some pre-curving is usually needed. But it is quite difficult to do properly without twisting the rail, and ideally needs a proper rolling tool with rollers turned to match the FB section. For glued construction in plastic chairs, some pre-curving is almost essential. That's because the chairs hold the rail inclined at 1:20 from the vertical in prototype fashion, and simply bending straight rail to a curve causes it to straighten up. It needs to be pre-curved and twisted at the same time, so that the 1:20 inclination is maintained round the curve, and the chairs can sit properly on the sleepers while the glue is setting. Likewise the making of knuckle bends, etc., while maintaining the 1:20 inclination needs some skill and practice. Generally beginner trackbuilders would do better to learn with vertical rail, in which case soldered construction is the only option. Not necessarily copper-clad -- call me old-fashioned but I think rivetted plywood still has a lot going for it. Cosmetic half-chairs can be added after it is all built, laid and working and the result can look just as good as functional plastic chairs, but much easier to build and test. The absence of the 1:20 inclination is barely noticeable in 4mm scale, any more than the grossly overscale web thickness in most model rail sections. • Note that even when all other rails are inclined, check rails should always be vertical to match the prototype. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The pre-curve or not? question generally depends on the type of rail and the construction method. For bullhead rail in soldered construction with the rail vertical there isn't generally any need to pre-curve the rail for the sort of radii which Gordon uses. For much tighter radii it can help. But if you are not careful it can be a hindrance because it is difficult to pre-curve the ends of a length of rail to match the middle part, which makes laying it to a constant curve trickier than starting with straight rail. Flat-bottom rail has much greater lateral stiffness than bullhead, so some pre-curving is usually needed. But it is quite difficult to do properly without twisting the rail, and ideally needs a proper rolling tool with rollers turned to match the FB section. For glued construction in plastic chairs, some pre-curving is almost essential. That's because the chairs hold the rail inclined at 1:20 from the vertical in prototype fashion, and simply bending straight rail to a curve causes it to straighten up. It needs to be pre-curved and twisted at the same time, so that the 1:20 inclination is maintained round the curve, and the chairs can sit properly on the sleepers while the glue is setting. Likewise the making of knuckle bends, etc., while maintaining the 1:20 inclination needs some skill and practice. Generally beginner trackbuilders would do better to learn with vertical rail, in which case soldered construction is the only option. Not necessarily copper-clad -- call me old-fashioned but I think rivetted plywood still has a lot going for it. Cosmetic half-chairs can be added after it is all built, laid and working and the result can look just as good as functional plastic chairs, but much easier to build and test. The absence of the 1:20 inclination is barely noticeable in 4mm scale, any more than the grossly overscale web thickness in most model rail sections. • Note that even when all other rails are inclined, check rails should always be vertical to match the prototype. regards, Martin. For those who want the best of both worlds, combining prototypical fidelity and soldered construction, there's the system devised by Mike Clark of Masokits. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Auto pilot? Have you ever got in your car and driven somewhere and when you arrive, you don't recall passing landmarks on the way? We've all done it, because generally we have driven for so many years, it's second nature. You're still alert to any danger, but it's all done automatically. Building pointwork is like that for me. Over the past few years I must have build two or three hundred and find it very therapeutic. Life has taught me that technical work is a great escape from anything that may be preying on your mind as the concentration involved effectively blanks out everything else. Put on the radio, relax and enjoy your work….Wonderful. Last night I was just about to finish the last of 18 turnouts, where I have worked hard to ensure they work perfectly. Each has been made exactly to gauge and stock runs through with silky smoothness and I was feeling very happy that ET will see some stock running soon. Sitting watching TV with my wife, I started thinking about the layout and what needed to be done when suddenly my blood ran cold. Bullhead rail looks symmetrical in section but there is a small difference in the top and bottom sections and the thicker section goes at the top. Even though I could build pointwork in my sleep, I suddenly thought that whilst building I had told myself to make sure the rail was the right way round and the thicker section goes at the bottom….. Aarghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! My worst fears were confirmed and I now realise I have built 18 beautiful turnouts with the rail upside down... Right now I don't know whether to laugh or top myself…. Looking at them, only the real enthusiast would spot my error, but I know it's there and I have a need to get things right. Right now I can't face making them again as there were many hours put in over Christmas. If I can get over the stupidity of all this, I'll leave it as once painted and ballasted few if any would notice, but it will eat away at me. I know it's wrong, even though other's don't….. I feel a 'Larry' coming on….. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jintyman Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Being new to the track building game, I built my first two points and swelled with pride. I thought BH rail was symmetrical, until I looked closer!!! I had built one of the points half and half, so it was a mixed one, the other was correct apart from 1 stock rail which was upside down!!! I could use them in the yard, but as you say, you know it's there............. You have my deepest sympathy. Jinty 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 My suggestion Gordon is to use them as they are (for now) and concentrate on getting the layout up and running according to your current plan. DON'T BALLAST THEM, however. For me, bearing in mind your previous track record (groan!), other, more fundamental, issues could easily rear their head with the overall configuration of the layout that are not apparent right now. So get it up and running, be sure you have 'got it right' (at last!), be happy that it is the layout for you and then - only then - will it really be worth building replacement points. Having held off the ballasting then taking up the old and installing the new will be relatively straightforward. I'm sure we'd all hate to see you spend more time and effort to replace the points right now, only to have to discard them later if something else isn't right. Also, by taking a break and coming back to them in 6-12 months time, you'll enjoy building them all the more. Just my opinion, of course (which you're welcome to completely ignore...!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Bullhead rail was a daft idea anyway............................. Well, it’s one way of looking at it............ Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Thanks guys. I think you're right 4479 and that makes sense... What makes it even worse is that I know it bullhead is asymmetrical, so I checked every piece of rail. That's 10 checks per turnout and 180 checks to make sure I had got it right. Only problem was that I had got it wrong 180 times…... At least there is some consistency... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Aarghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! My worst fears were confirmed and I now realise I have built 18 beautiful turnouts with the rail upside down... Right now I don't know whether to laugh or top myself…. Looking at them, only the real enthusiast would spot my error, but I know it's there and I have a need to get things right. Right now I can't face making them again as there were many hours put in over Christmas. If I can get over the stupidity of all this, I'll leave it as once painted and ballasted few if any would notice, but it will eat away at me. I know it's wrong, even though other's don't….. I feel a 'Larry' coming on….. Hi Gordon, I tell you his guy Larry wouldn't give a rats bottom and would spray, lay & ballast them points, 'cos even a G12 shooting at track level would not show up an upside down bullhead rail............Happy New Year pilgrim..... Edited January 8, 2015 by coachmann 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Can I ask at this point, how do the experts cut rail in situ? Or do you place it, mark it, remove it, cut it? I have tried a slitting disc and it always cuts at an angle to the vertical....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi Gordon, Model rail section is not prototypical -- the rail web is far too thick. Your track gauge is not prototypical -- it is significantly underscale. Your flangeway gaps are not prototypical -- they are significantly overscale. Using copper-clad construction your rail is flush to the timbers -- prototypically it should be 1.75" above them. Having accepted all the above, having the rail the unprototypical way up is a small extra thing to accept. The reason it matters for others is that if you are wanting to use plastic chairs, they won't fit on the rail upside down. But you aren't using them. By the way, in the early days of UK railways bullhead rail was symmetrical. The idea was that after it was worn on top it could be turned over and used again. The idea failed because the worn head didn't fit the chairs properly and the chair indentations on the top caused rough running. If you were modelling in P4 there might be an additional problem. The corner radius on the rail top is 1/2" and on the bottom is only 5/16", so it might run a bit tight to gauge on exact-scale wheel profiles. However, most model rail section is not very accurate, and in even in 00-SF there is still plenty of side freedom with 00 wheels. If it was me I would want to get the layout up and running first, and come back and rebuild them later. Maybe. regards, Martin. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Can I ask at this point, how do the experts cut rail in situ? Or do you place it, mark it, remove it, cut it? Hi Jeff, Yes. Don't lay any track until it is the right size to fit. However, if you must cut it in situ, break off a short bit of junior hacksaw blade, say about 3/4" long. Hold it firmly in a pair of pliers -- ideally parallel-action pliers or maybe small Mole-type grips. Work it against the side of the rail until you are through. Hold a bit of scrap wood against the other side of the rail to support it. It's not instant, but doesn't take too long. There will be some damage to the ballast, but easily repaired. edit: p.s. If it is steel rail, be sure to vacuum up the metal dust -- otherwise it will end up attached to motor magnets in your locos and generally cause problems. Ditto for nickel-silver rail ideally, otherwise you may get strange shorts. The same applies if using a slitting disc. regards, Martin. Edited January 8, 2015 by martin_wynne 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Thanks again. 2am this morning they would have all gone in the bin as I knew they were wrong, but a few hours later and I have an acceptance that few will notice. They will stay as they are for now and I'll deal with it eventually or maybe never….. To answer your question Jeff, I do cut rail in situ with a slitting disc, but then I use a Proxxon mini drill which does allow you to get close to the horizontal and as such the vertical cut is pretty good. Other drills may well be larger and don't allow that. http://www.proxxon.com/en/micromot/28500.php Loose rail is cut with an old pair Xuron track cutters and the end cleaned up with a needle file. Edited January 8, 2015 by gordon s 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Should also say that I cut plain track in situ. I rough cut to length plus 20-30mm and then remove a few sleepers from the two joining pieces of track. Lay them in position and allow the excess rail to overlap parallel to each other. Once I'm happy with the alignment etc, I use the slitting disc to cut through all four rails where they overlap each other. The thickness of the slitting disc is just right for the expansion gap and means the track is cut perfectly to length. The only proviso is to monitor the cut carefully and if necessary support the rail to stop it catching or flapping whilst the cut is being made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2015 Thanks again. 2am this morning they would have all gone in the bin as I knew they were wrong, but a few hours later and I have an acceptance that few will notice. They will stay as they are for now and I'll deal with it eventually or maybe never….. : Hooray! Glad to see sense has prevailed..... ...although if I ever get to see it again I will take pleasure in pointing out your Australian moment.... .....if I can spot it..... ...which I very much doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Loose rail is cut with an old pair Xuron track cutters and the end cleaned up with a needle file. I’ll just add this: Don’t use them for anything else. I’ve used them on guitar strings (because they were to hand) and ruined them Best, Pete. Edited January 8, 2015 by trisonic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2015 PhilH, on 08 Jan 2015 - 12:33, said: ...although if I ever get to see it again I will take pleasure in pointing out your Australian moment.... RMweb. Where you learn who your friends are! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium eldavo Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2015 Don't panic! Rather than rip it all up walk away and play a few rounds of golf (even if it is in the wet and cold). Personally, and I know I'm a hacker, it really wouldn't benefit you to build it all again unless it will give you pleasure. Given the number of compromises in an 00 layout the orientation of code 75 bullhead rail is hardly a biggy. Will anyone, including you, be able to see it once its painted, ballasted and weathered? Will the trains fall off? Will the earth stop turning? Cheers Dave (who is not sure whether all the rail on Cramdin Yard is up the right way) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGC Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Can I ask at this point, how do the experts cut rail in situ? Or do you place it, mark it, remove it, cut it? I have tried a slitting disc and it always cuts at an angle to the vertical....... I have a flexible drive for my drill, and with the slitting disk in the chuck I can get to horizontal even with the small slitting disks. Hope that helps. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi Gordon I think we've all been there, done it and got the T shirt. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted January 8, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2015 Gordon Can I come round when ET is finished to see the whole layout and admire it for the excellent layout that it will be. I doubt I'll notice or even remember that . . . . . . . Now what was it I'm supposed to remember? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 I use an X-Acto razor saw for cutting track. Especially when cutting in-situ for a isolation gap as the blade is only 10 thou thick and gives a much neater gap than a slitting disc on a Dremel. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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