RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2011 Some time ago this model sold on ebay. It suggests that this is a K15 full brake, is it?Now why am I asking this, was I the one to paid that much for a model? Nope, I'm trying to identify a GWR passenger brake van that was used for rabbit traffic. There is a nice picture of this but it's copyright so I won't put it on here but this model is of the same type. Thanks for any answers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted May 13, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2011 Some time ago this model sold on ebay. It suggests that this is a K15 full brake, is it?Now why am I asking this, was I the one to paid that much for a model? Nope, I'm trying to identify a GWR passenger brake van that was used for rabbit traffic. There is a nice picture of this but it's copyright so I won't put it on here but this model is of the same type. Thanks for any answers. I know the picture you're talking about Kris and its very similar I must admit.That model was painted by Coachmann so ask him if he remembers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 13, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2011 Good suggestion Robin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Thanks for your PM on this matter. To be perfectly frank, in the few years I have been out of the painting & lining business, I have forgotten much of what I knew about GWR coaching stock. However, the information I still have appears to show this is a 40ft - 0¾ ins Diagram K3 van. At some time I had written No. 188? on the drawing and 777 with no duckets. I don't know why it is on Dean 6ft 4ins bogies as the drawing shows Dean 8ft 6 ins w.b.. Probably built from a Blacksmith etched brass kit. coach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 From memory D Lawrence models were either brass etched kits or a set of etched parts requireing additional items to complete. I guess its been professionally built and certainly professionally painted (just look at Coachmans thread). If you commissioned one to be built today, then it would cost as much if not more. Blacksmith Models may do a similar coach kit in brass. N C Keyser also did one (or similar) in plastic which could be superdetailed to a reasonable standard. These latter kits fetch high prices just as bog standard models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 13, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2011 Thanks for the comments. They have been most helpful. The 2 photos of these vans that I can find (in books) both seem to show them on 6'4" bogies (at least they look to small for 8'6" wheelbase ones). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 There was a set of articles in either Model Railways or MRC (probably the former) covering the 40' brakes. THere are detail differences between the various diagrams and I'd have to reference the article to figure out which details go with which diagram. I can find the reference this weekend if it would help. The difference between the 6'4 and 8'6 bogies are the locations of the bolsters (outboard of the wheels on the 6'4" and between the wheels on the *'6"), so it should be relatively easy to identify the bogie type in the photos. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 13, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 13, 2011 The more information on these the better Adrian. Thanks for the offer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 It looks like a Blacksmith/Mallard K2/3. The spaced seam is typical of their kits. The bogies are not the etched one supplied but appear to be cast BSL or possibly Larryparts/Coachman's?. The K2/3 have the very deep top panels seen in the photo along with the windows in the ends. The K15 has 4x double doors each side with a guards single door and look out each side. K's produced the model in plastic with cast 8'6" bogies (or 8ft Americans if requested direct from K's). Springside, Frogmore, Tony Hammond have all produced the K15 in brass. 04 diagram Siphon C 6 wheel vans were dedicated to carry rabbit traffic between Helston and Sheffield during the 1930's branded via Banbury. These were the 3 door a side as produced by D&S rather than the 2 a side as produced by K's. Unfortunate as there are a lot of cheap K's ones around, whereas D&S appear to be the new Gold standard currency, the prices they fetch second hand. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 No the latter MRC 3/67, 8/67 & 9/67 also some were repeated in MRC 11/79 & 1/80. I have still to get 3/67. Actually 6/67, 8/67, and 9/67, with a followup article 11/79 and a postscript to that 1/80 (so as you listed except that the first article was 6/67). The first three were by J.N.Slinn and P.G.F.English, while the other two were by Roy Miller and were more focussed on the K3. Of the first three articles, the first is the intro and covers some of the special conversions and has plan and elevation digrams for the K14, K15, and K16, the second part has the lot lists for K14, K15, and K16 as well as side elevations for the other major types, and the third has lot lists for the remainder as well as elevations for the postal and stowage vans. The K15 was the odd one out of the 40' brakes as it was gangwayed. As mentioned it had 4 pairs of doors (+ guard's door) a side. The one in the listing above seems to have two pairs of doors fairly close to the centre which would make it likely a K2 or a K3 (so the 6'4" bogies are likely correct). From the article, K15 was gangwayed and had a three centre roof - the K's kit is probably a good starting point. Of them, Lots 911, 895, 1000, 1024, 1048, and 1059 were on Dean 8'6" bogies, Lot 1075 on 8'0" Volute bogies, and lot 1116 on 8'6" American bogies (which I didn't know existed). K25 was the diagram for these with the guard's duckets removed. Numbers: Lot 911: 1091-1100, built 12/98 to 3/99 Lot 895: 939/940, built 10/98 and 9/98 as K14 and converted to K15 Lot 1000: 1111-1114. built 10/02 Lot 1024: 1115-1120, built 3/03 to 4/03 Lot 1048: 1121-1124, built 1/04 to 3/04 Lot 1059: 221-225, built 4/04 Lot 1075: 226-229/231-236, built 10/04 to 12/04 Lot 1116: 237-246, built 9/06 to 12/06 All but 17 were converted to K25 between 1919 and 1930 (mostly 1919-1920). The article indicates this by number if you need specifics. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted May 14, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2011 Thanks for the extra info Adrian and Mike. All helps to id and give a little history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Actually 6/67, 8/67, and 9/67, with a followup article 11/79 and a postscript to that 1/80 (so as you listed except that the first article was 6/67). The first three were by J.N.Slinn and P.G.F.English, while the other two were by Roy Miller and were more focussed on the K3. Of the first three articles, the first is the intro and covers some of the special conversions and has plan and elevation digrams for the K14, K15, and K16, the second part has the lot lists for K14, K15, and K16 as well as side elevations for the other major types, and the third has lot lists for the remainder as well as elevations for the postal and stowage vans. The K15 was the odd one out of the 40' brakes as it was gangwayed. As mentioned it had 4 pairs of doors (+ guard's door) a side. The one in the listing above seems to have two pairs of doors fairly close to the centre which would make it likely a K2 or a K3 (so the 6'4" bogies are likely correct). From the article, K15 was gangwayed and had a three centre roof - the K's kit is probably a good starting point. Of them, Lots 911, 895, 1000, 1024, 1048, and 1059 were on Dean 8'6" bogies, Lot 1075 on 8'0" Volute bogies, and lot 1116 on 8'6" American bogies (which I didn't know existed). K25 was the diagram for these with the guard's duckets removed. Numbers: Lot 911: 1091-1100, built 12/98 to 3/99 Lot 895: 939/940, built 10/98 and 9/98 as K14 and converted to K15 Lot 1000: 1111-1114. built 10/02 Lot 1024: 1115-1120, built 3/03 to 4/03 Lot 1048: 1121-1124, built 1/04 to 3/04 Lot 1059: 221-225, built 4/04 Lot 1075: 226-229/231-236, built 10/04 to 12/04 Lot 1116: 237-246, built 9/06 to 12/06 All but 17 were converted to K25 between 1919 and 1930 (mostly 1919-1920). The article indicates this by number if you need specifics. Adrian I've never managed to get the first part of these articles. I missed it at the time and have never found it since. Could you please possibly give the numbers of the vans that weren't converted? Many thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted May 14, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2011 The running number on the vehicle mentioned in Kris's photo is 1022. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I've never managed to get first part of these articles. I missed it at the time and have never found it since. Could you please possibly give the numbers of the vans that weren't converted? Many thanks! The following K15s were never converted to K25: 1095 1099 1100 1112 1113 to diesel generator van 1945, then M32, then Q14 (renumbered to 2) 1115 1116 1118 1119 to Mess and Tool Van No.242 10/52 1124 to Tunnel Inspection Van No.259 9/52 221 222 to Tunnel Inspection Van No.14476 8/49 223 224 225 939 940 Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 The running number on the vehicle mentioned in Kris's photo is 1022. 1022 is a diagram K4 from lot 550, built 1/91, cond. 2/36. This would have had 2 sets of double doors a side. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 . Could you please possibly give the numbers of the vans that weren't converted? Many thanks! Not sure if it is the K2/3 or K14-6 numbers you require. If it is the K14-6 numbers you are after, the only photo I have of a near original is K16 216, still gas lit, 8'6" Deans (I have no record of the 8'6" Americans ever existing just 8' , 9' and an experimental 11'6"), no corridor connections, duckets in place, original Dean buffers, though by 1947 some panels had been replaced. By the 1930's major modifications were taking place to the K14-6 diagrams. Substitute American bogies corridor connections added/removed electric lighting replacing gas ducket removed panels replaced doors replaced roof board mountings added/removed shell ventilators added exterior handbrake added to departmental vans tunnel inspection van conversions replacement buffers livery variations, choc/cream, all over choc, lined, unlined Front line service vans appear to have dedicated branding to a route or specific working. Some carried the branding on roof boards. A recent series ran in the Great Western Journal illustrating the stores van conversions and branding. These van went all over the system. I was looking through some 1930's photographs of Manchester recently and there was a K14-6 in the background having worked up from Trowbridge. There were five vans allocated to this service from 1923-38 including 1082/3/4. All the vans carried roof boards. Some photo's show vans that appear to be near original but I do not have the definiative numbers for the shots. The vans would arrive in Bristol often with the Siphon C sausage vans from the Harris factory in Calne which were on their way to Crewe. A regular working was to attach them to the 07:45 Penzance-Crewe train at Bristol. I have a Soole photograph with a parcels train containing four of these vans , all in different conditions. If I modelled that train, everyone would say ' that would never happen'! Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Thanks for your replies! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I now must look for the 6/67 then, as in the MRC Special 7 Model Drawings Reference Book it is listed as 3/67. It is also listed as 3/67 in the heading for the second part of the article. It is definitely 6/67, though. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 We have failed to find a source for these in 2mm, any ideas? Some of the converted vehicles had quite a long working life so it would be nice to find some way of making a small batch. I am going to have to use Siphon C's for the rabbit traffic for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerbread Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 We have failed to find a source for these in 2mm, any ideas? Some of the converted vehicles had quite a long working life so it would be nice to find some way of making a small batch. I am going to have to use Siphon C's for the rabbit traffic for now. Possibilities for 2mm: Worsley Works at http://www.worsleywo...co.uk/index.htm (K14/15/16 in 3mm could probably be reduced to 2mm) Blacksmith models at http://www.blacksmit...s.com/index.htm (I think they include some form of 40 ft Dean brake in the 2mm range, but no specific details available) David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I have some 2mm 40ft van kits from blacksmith and 5522. I'll dig them out and have a look what they are of. From memory they are K2,4,... because 3 is different. I'll look at them though. It's ages since I've been in that box, I know I nearly finished a carcass but got hung up over sorting out some bogies for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Thanks again Mr Brummit! I am a big fan of your amazing stock of etches. Bogies for N kits seem problematic at present, I doubt any of the Dean types are an easy find. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Thanks again Mr Brummit! I am a big fan of your amazing stock of etches. Bogies for N kits seem problematic at present, I doubt any of the Dean types are an easy find. Well I sold all the B-set etches I bought. The last ones went to your box. A B-set in earlier periods was more than two coaches according to a book that I have somewhere. Bogies for N kits aren't so problematic if you had access to the 2mm SA shops. They now list most GWR types, but not Dean centreless ones. (They also list N gauge profile wheels on 12.25mm axles available to fit their underframes and bogies.) Unsurprisingly there aren't even any stretchers for a 6'4" wheelbase bogie. What I got really hung up about was not wanting to cut the J hangers for the springs under the footboards (something that appears to be common practice in 4mm and upwards). I will get back to finishing these coaches one day, along with some other clerestory stock from blacksmith etches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 This is my part built blacksmith etch. Someone already said that this was K2/3, but I thought that it was a K4 :? There isn't much etch left now so many of the parts will be found elsewhere or made. Here is a 2mm etch that I have from 5522 which builds the K14,15,16,25,31 diagrams. Somewhere on a hard drive I have some almost complete artwork for all the types of 6 wheeled siphons in 2mm that are also in my massive to do pile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted June 21, 2011 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2011 Lovely looking work there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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