Out of touch?

[simon hudson]

I work in retail, and as everyone knows the High St is dead at the moment,not having any interest in football(all our sets had the final on).

I flicked through the on line catalouges of Hornby and Bachmann

A couple of surprises, I nearly fell over when I saw the price of some Hornby coaches.I haven't read any mags or purchased anything for a while, apart from some track and oddments from ebay(I have lots of kits etc put away for that rainy day).I also hadn't realised the amount of replication between Hornby and Bachmann, loco wise,(both Steam and Diesel) in fact I didn't know Hornby did a (peppercorn) A1.Just shows I should get out more

[peterl]

I work in retail, and as everyone knows the High St is dead at the moment,not having any interest in football(all our sets had the final on).

I flicked through the on line catalouges of Hornby and Bachmann

A couple of surprises, I nearly fell over when I saw the price of some Hornby coaches.I haven't read any mags or purchased anything for a while, apart from some track and oddments from ebay(I have lots of kits etc put away for that rainy day).I also hadn't realised the amount of replication between Hornby and Bachmann, loco wise,(both Steam and Diesel) in fact I didn't know Hornby did a (peppercorn) A1.Just shows I should get out more

 

 

Yes Simon you do need to get out more or perhaps do some more modelling

 

Peter

[Tim Hale]

Just shows I should get out more

 

Or maybe it is interesting to see how a fresh pair of eyes see the issues which we ignore.

 

Tim

[APOLLO]

I had a walk round my home town, Wigan this morning, our new £100 million shopping centre was very quiet indeed, though no shops are shut in it (yet).

 

Yes some Hornby items are expensive, but the Railroad range is value for money, A new pannier tank for £24 - just the job. Dont forget Hornby site prices are RRP, check internet retailers like Hattons, etc. Quite a bit cheaper. I buy mainly s/hand these days, things (!!) like Lima, Replica etc - cheaper still.

 

Brit15

[Forester]

Out of touch? Yes, definitely!

 

 

No, not you Simon. It's Hornby I'm talking about.

 

Their current prices are simply unsustainable. Incomes are falling. Basic fuel, food, transport and other living costs are rising. Something has to give.

 

Railroad will thrive as it is still mostly good value but I don't see their main detail model business surviving in its present form if the recession doesn't end soon. I suspect some of the promised models may never see the light of day. It's worrying when they seem have trouble shifting new limited editions.

[PaulRhB]

Compare Hornby's or Bachmann's prices to most European manufacturers and I think you'll find they do offer value for money. these are all from the current Model Rail and Continental Modeller and straight DC models.

 

Steam

Hornby Britannia pacific £110.

Fleischmann class 03 pacific £277

lilliput class 05 4-6-4 £197 (part of Bachmann)

 

Bachmann 7F £103

lilliput class 42 2-10-0 £178

fleischmann class50 £221

 

Diesel and electric

Hornby class 50 NSE £66

Hornby railroad class 40 £38

Bachmann class 70 £76

vi trains 47 £72

Athearn (rtr range) c44-9 £55

Athearn (Genesis range) SD70 £98

fleischmann class 145 electric £135

jouef (junior line) bb9200 £91

electroen class 321 co co diesel £199

 

Coaches

Hornby Pullman £37

maunsell £28

mk3 £21

 

Fleischmann

5654 modus coach £40

ICE coach £40

lilliput

DB coach £24

DR coach £31

Saloon coach £35

 

Suprised? The only comparable priced stuff, loco wise, is from the huge US market so I don't think Hornby and Bachmann are going to have any problem justifying their prices. They aren't struggling to shift most lines either, Look at how many recent releases aren't in the adverts like the 9F's. If they don't produce enough of the bread and butter models like 37's then they get accused of not encouraging new starters as shops don't have stock. So some lines are expected to sell slowly. I remember talking to a Hornby rep in a local shop who said they couldn't believe how fast the Q1's sold which they expected to hang around, I suspect they didn't follow up with lots more versions because they didn't think it would be a continuous selling line like A4's etc.

[mezzoman253]

Morning,

 

I've just left HobbyCraft after 8+ years in retail. Our business is very healthy and the town is always full of people shopping. Whether they are actually buying is another story, but they certainly are in my ex-store. Of course it could all be "plastic" purchases leading to another crisis further down the road.

 

Rob

 

 

[Forester]

Compare Hornby's or Bachmann's prices .........

 

 

But these are not Hornby or Bachmann prices, Paul. These are box-shifter prices.

 

Re-populate your list with Manufacturer Recommended Retail Prices and see how it looks.

[Barry Ten]

Jouef's lovely new SNCF 2-8-2 will set you back around 450 pounds for the sound equipped version, so I still we're think we're having it pretty good, although obviously the trend is toward more similar pricing for UK and European stuff.

[Steven B]

Compare today's prices to those advertised in Railway Modeller 10/20 years ago and I think the difference won't be as big as you'd think (especially taking into account average take-home pay rises over the same period).

 

Talking to the Bachmann rep at the N Gauge Society AGM last weekend he said that they were very pleased with how the model railway market was thriving, even with all the economic doom and gloom so perhaps people are spending less on cars and holidays but more on model railways.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[PaulRhB]

But these are not Hornby or Bachmann prices, Paul. These are box-shifter prices.

 

Re-populate your list with Manufacturer Recommended Retail Prices and see how it looks.

They are ALL box shifter prices, the fleischmann stuff is discounted too so I think the comparison stands. The fleischmann and lillput rrp is also correspondingly higher. As virtually no-one sells at full rrp it's a fairly irrelevant price in the real world. My local modelshops sell below the rrp and box shifters are around 10% cheaper still. So you have to compare like for like as I did. My quotes were from Hattons, Kernow, Winco, Waltons and Signalbox and where there was a difference I chose the mid price to reflect the clearance prices offered as well. You can pay between £60-80 for a 60 at the same shop for a new release vs a clearance one.

So I think from a quick look at two typical magazines that we may buy from that's a fair test. If I wanted to I could choose to get the prices from the likes of Gaugemaster for continental vs Hattons for UK and that would skew the figures further in favour of the UK!

Look at Gaugemaster or Ontracks who sell UK, US and European and compare prices it's similar to what I quote above. Feel free to look at comparable products and quote to prove me wrong

[PaulRhB]

Off Gaugemaster

Bachmann 7f £125

Roco br52 £185

Roco br44 2-10-0 £225

Fleischmann br95 £265

And if we look at Marklin they are getting up to 3-400!

 

All non sound

[The Stationmaster]

They are ALL box shifter prices, the fleischmann stuff is discounted too so I think the comparison stands. The fleischmann and lillput rrp is also correspondingly higher. As virtually no-one sells at full rrp it's a fairly irrelevant price in the real world.

 

I was talking to a retailer a few weeks back about prices and he was drawing exactly the same sort of comparisons as you (well he is a retailer) but the really telling point he made was about a loco (I think of a Swiss outline from what he said) he will shortly be ordering in for a customer where the trade price will be nearer to £600 than £500; I was quite happy to make off with my bag full of Hornby Hawksworths at what I still consider is 'good value' by any measure. Also when you factor inflation into the equation the general situation is very definitely one where current UK recommended prices for model railway items stand up fairly well against historic prices. For example a Hornby Dublo 'Castle' cost £4/1/0 in 1957 which amounted to about 1.5 day's average wages, in 2009 a new Hornby 'Castle' could be obtained, discounted, for less than an average day's wage. I know that I'm talking about averages but they are at least a sort of illustration. But one thing people tend to overlook is the 'Lima era' when prices dropped to amazing lows (and quality maybe also suffered?) because manufacturers and importers were probably more interested in volume and market share than in maximising returns per loco, or whatever, they sold; we're past that phase I think, but still probably better off price-wise than we were in the past.

[PaulRhB]

but the really telling point he made was about a loco (I think of a Swiss outline from what he said) he will shortly be ordering in for a customer where the [/i]trade price will be nearer to £600 than £500;

Yes and I assume that's HO, there's quite a lot of consternation with LGB at present as the prices have shot up but quality control has become poor with some models arriving with parts missing or not secure.

 

The point about the low prices at the end of the Lima era is also well made.

 

I've known a few traders well over the years and having worked for a year in a model company in the early 90's and this wanting everything for toy prices isn't realistic because of the scale of manufacture of these specific products. Hornby carry several major lines in their portfolio but if you actually look at the complexity of assembly then the model railway stuff is some of the most intricate in the factory assembly stage.

[coachmann]

All the talk in the world won't alter the perception that Hornby's prices are too high. Perception is everything and if it stops people buying, watch out! As for comparing Hornby and Bachmann with Lilliput and other foreign manufacturers, this is pointless. Hornby and Bachmann are producing 4mm scale models for the unique British market. If this market falls away it affects these two companies big style.

[spamcan61]

In real terms the list price of many Hornby items is little higher now than it was 20-30 years ago; OK there are a few exceptions given Hornby's bizarre 2011 pricing strategy, but you're generally getting a much better model for little more money.

[Barry Ten]

All the talk in the world won't alter the perception that Hornby's prices are too high. Perception is everything and if it stops people buying, watch out! As for comparing Hornby and Bachmann with Lilliput and other foreign manufacturers, this is pointless. Hornby and Bachmann are producing 4mm scale models for the unique British market. If this market falls away it affects these two companies big style.

 

Lilliput are Bachmann. Like Hornby, they have a large portfolio of different regional "brands". Hornby make specific model for the French market under one name, for the Italian under another, and so on.

[PaulRhB]

Well despite some perceptions there's obviously enough people willing to pay judging by how I've struggled to find certain items I didn't pre order, had to wait for the next production run on the mk3 coaches.

I agree perception is everything which is why LGB Marklin are beginning to get into trouble as people who previously would buy happily on the net are so worried about quality issues that they are waiting for a convienient time or making special trips to inspect and collect before parting with cash.

Go to the big shows and watch the cards and cash being passed over in exchange for red and blue boxes. As Al says there's little difference between the likes of Marklin and Hornby as they all sell there ranges outside the main home market. Just back from Canada and both modelshops I visited had a limited range of Bachmann and Hornby.

We are getting quality models and I'd say they are equal in reliability to the likes of Fleischmann and unsurprisingly Lilliput but I would say Roco are superior mechanisms using better materials from how they last.

[PaulRhB]

Larry I don't see that the Market for a british model is really that different from the Market for a german one. According to the trade reports Hornby is actually doing better than most of the German 'giants' with Marklin, fleischmann and Roco all struggling in recent years and being bought out by investment groups. The loss of the german banks protectionism dropped LGB from glory and it was swallowed up by Kingsbridge that bought out Marklin. We've seen the prices rise significantly more than UK models and a big quality drop too. I've not bought a new LGB model since as I don't percieve they are worth that for Brand name alone. Piko and Accucraft now get my business for G scale and Piko have a junior and main range with prices in the same region as Hornby but slightly more.

What it really boils down to is if you want a good looking reliable model buy Hornby Railroad and if you want a museum quality model then they offer the super detail range. They may need some mechanical servicing now and again depending on miles run and environment. I don't find they are any worse than well built kits, though I would prefer to see more use of bushes that can be replaced rather than needing a new chassis block.

[Ron Ron Ron]

......Hornby and Bachmann are producing 4mm scale models for the unique British market. If this market falls away it affects these two companies big style.

Bachmann's UK Branchline range is only one string of Kader's toy train empire.

 

Hornby saw the "writing on the wall" a few years ago, hence their expansion into other markets and diversification into other hobby trade activities.

Apart from their long established Scalextric brand, they have purchased.....

Spain's Electrotren,

the branding and tooling assets of the defunct Lima group (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Arnold),

Heico (German models),

MKD (French model company),

Corgi (Die-cast models),

Airfix and Humbrol (plastic kits and model paints).

 

Reliance one one market sector is a risky business, hence Hornby spreading itself wider, even if their activities are predominately in the model and toy train business.

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[S.A.C Martin]

this wanting everything for toy prices isn't realistic because of the scale of manufacture of these specific products.

 

Right, but the Railroad Flying Scotsman is £60. The actual "toy" in Hornby's catalogue - Gordon the Big Engine - is £110 and uses an older Triang tooling, and tender drive motor

 

Work out the logic in the pricing there - and I can tell you as fact, it's not by any means the license fee from HiT Entertainment there.

 

It's not price rises in general which people object to. It's the seemingly random and completely spurious price rises on some of the models Hornby are selling.

 

Bachmann's price rises were met with no real surprise as all the models increased at a similar rate across the range. Hornby's price increases are anything between 5-50%, and in some cases the RRPs on the website are, as far as I can see, and note of their history, almost bordering on the make believe.

 

I made this point in a different thread last month, I'm starting to sound like a broken gramophone

[davidw]

Hornby prices in particular are far too high. SAC Martins last post testifies to that!

 

From a personal perspective I don't have the disposable income that I had 18 months ago. Salary has not gone up prices have (particularly fuel has shot up). There are a number of items that I'd love to purchase but I currently think once, twice or more times. With many feeling that jobs are under threat its's not a good time for manufacturers of consummers.

[James]

From a personal perspective I don't have the disposable income that I had 18 months ago. Salary has not gone up prices have (particularly fuel has shot up). There are a number of items that I'd love to purchase but I currently think once, twice or more times. With many feeling that jobs are under threat its's not a good time for manufacturers of consummers.

Having been made redundant and spent some time getting back to normal after getting back into work having a low (and at one time no!) diposable income I can sympathise.

 

What's attached to this is that if you can't buy as soon as new releases appear, you just miss out. I had to wait months before I could get, for example, Bachmann BDAs in Railfreight red, so you can miss out twice in a way!

[298]

Only Hornby can tell you how well they're doing, and I doubt you's even get a straight answer is you asked. But you have to recognise that production costs are never straightforward, for example a Teak coach will be costly because of the number of painting processes involved, as will an older loco with a complicated livery.

 

But I still think they're making more of a profit from older models and seem to plough this back into other new ranges. There is of course the issue with new models that thay have to be right, woe betide any manufacturer who produces an absolute pup, good obscure prototypes will sell better than something mainstream with serious issues.

 

I wouldn't be too concerned with individual price comparisons, the Thomas range is and has always been scaled with other models and 10+ years ago Gordon was sold at a similar price to a set with both Thomas & Percy in, and probably cost as much to produce. One their market realised this (plus a bit of pester power) the price becomes justified. The low price for the Railroad Scotsman is probably because it's seen as a lesser model when compared to the high end product and the vast oversupply of this loco over the years. For a real comparison, ask why you see unboxed locos in a poor condition at Swapmeets on sale for more than their brand new equivalents from box shifters.

[Pennine MC]

Hornby prices in particular are far too high. SAC Martins last post testifies to that!

 

 

Um, no it doesn't; not if you read it properly:

 

It's not price rises in general which people object to. It's the seemingly random and completely spurious price rises on some of the models Hornby are selling.