HST formations

[D5541]

Evening All

 

a quick bit of research before embarking on another daft plan of mine! what would be the correct formation of a Western region/XC HST in intercity swallow livery?

Can i get away with a 7 car set or were they all 8 car sets by then?

What would the designation of the buffet car been and what if any were the main external differences between TRSB/TRUB/TRUK etc?

 

Cheers

Dan

[mjkerr]

what would be the correct formation of a Western region/XC HST in intercity swallow livery?

Can i get away with a 7 car set or were they all 8 car sets by then?

What would the designation of the buffet car been and what if any were the main external differences between TRSB/TRUB/TRUK etc?

For this specific livery

 

Western Region : TF - TF - TRFB - TS - TS - TS - TS - TGS (the same as East Coast)

Cross Country : TF - TRSB - TS - TS - TS - TS - TGS

 

There were a small number of TRFK, but these were used as spares instead of the TRFB

For positioning the TRFB and TRSB, the counter / buffet end is nearest to the TGS with the seats to the TF

[D5541]

cheers for that

 

final question (as i'm damned if i'm walking to the station in this weather to find out) coach letters (I'm assuming A - G for an XC set) would run: TF - A down to TGS - G or if it t'other way round?

[Bomag]

cheers for that

 

final question (as i'm damned if i'm walking to the station in this weather to find out) coach letters (I'm assuming A - G for an XC set) would run: TF - A down to TGS - G or if it t'other way round?

 

For ICS sets the TGS was A; not all the letters were used, AFAIK the TFs were G and H

 

In addition not all WR set had TRFBs (3 seating bays). In 1992 nine of the 38 sets had TRBs - (4 seating bays first class 402xx)

[Flood]

Re restaurant/buffet types:

A TRUB and TRFB are the same vehicle, just the seating reclassified from Unclassified to First. This is the type made by Hornby and Lima. Number series 403xx as a TRUB and 407xx as a TRFB.

The TRUK/TRFK was a kitchen car originally for both the Western and Eastern Regions but moved from the Western in 1978 and only used by the Eastern Region after about 1986 in East Coast Pullman Rakes. Some were converted to Royal Train vehicles, others to the loco hauled RFM. They have four large passenger windows per side unlike the TRUB/TRFB which only has three. Number series 405xx.

The TRSB was the buffet car originally designed to be used with the TRUK. It also has four large passenger windows per side but the other kitchen windows and the narrow windows by the kitchen area corridor are subtly different from the TRUK. Some TRSBs were fitted with first class seats by the Western Region (giving them less seats than before) and called TRBs. Number series as a TRSB originally 400xx then changed to 404xx so TOPS did not have a clash with class 40s, numbers as TRBs being 402xx.

Eastern Region sets always had Coach A as the TGS but I'm not sure about the Western Region. Dennis Taylor's 80s Rail fotopic site had some excellent close up photos of HST trailers showing the coach letters. He's not added them to the zenfolio site yet, a quick email should get a positive response as I've always found him very helpful.

(Edit: being written at the same time as Bomag's previous post)

[mjkerr]

final question (as i'm damned if i'm walking to the station in this weather to find out) coach letters (I'm assuming A - G for an XC set) would run: TF - A down to TGS - G or if it t'other way round?

 

Yes, that is correct coach lettering starts with A as TGS, BCDE are TS, F is the TRSB/TRFB, GH are TF

A Cross Country set normally used G only

 

Also if the TRFK was used additionally in a set then it was given letter K, as it was normally positioned between the last TF and power car

 

Externally there was little difference between a TRUB and TRFB, but by INTERCITY livery they had all been converted to TRFB

In Blue / Grey livery there was quite a difference internally, with the conversion one seat was also removed

Finally, there was no additional yellow stripe, just the red stripe above the "Buffet" section

However, this is fairly irrelevent to what the OP requires

 

If you are restricted on the number of trailers you can haul, either due to layout length, etc, then you can operate a HST as a 7 car

East Coast occasionally had to run sets with a TS missing

However, normal practice was to replace the TS with a TF where possible (and declassify that replacement TF), but quite often that was not possible

I hated it when walking along a set and noticing the window stickers had two coach letters in one coach

[Flood]

Finally, there was no additional yellow stripe, just the red stripe above the "Buffet" section

However, this is fairly irrelevent to what the OP requires

The Eastern Region TRFBs certainly had yellow above the passenger windows but I'm not sure about the Western Region ones. One point to note is that they were still TRUBs on the Western Region certainly in the summer of 1989 so that's why they wouldn't have had yellow stripes, plus the fact that all but one of the Western's TRUB rakes received executive livery before being changed to the INTERCITY style.

 

I've also noted that some buffets carried a red stripe for the full length of the coach but I can't recall which type of coach these were.

[mjkerr]

The Eastern Region TRFBs certainly had yellow above the passenger windows

Refer to original text, blue/grey livery which was not relevant to the OP requirement, hence no yellow stripe on a TRUB

[mjkerr]

I've also noted that some buffets carried a red stripe for the full length of the coach but I can't recall which type of coach these were.

More common on the Mark 3A coaches, as this specified Modular, such as the RSM

Red Stripe was also carried on some coaches in error, but was corrected during the conversions

The stripe meant that the seating was unclassified and was only to be used by those using the catering vehicle

 

The only others with full red stripe were Mark 1 coaches, again the stripe above the seats specified unclassified seating for use of those being served from the catering vehicle

The only exception was the RMB, the red short red stripe made it difficult for platform staff to see it

 

The later conversions of the Mark 2 coaches were rather unusual in that RFB and RLO didn't have a red stripe at all

[Flood]

Refer to original text, blue/grey livery which was not relevant to the OP requirement, hence no yellow stripe on a TRUB

I think it was just the way I read your post so you've clarified that we are agreeing. I never looked at the red stripe as meaning unclassified but now you come to mention it that means the stripes on the prototype HST catering vehicles now make sense.

[mjkerr]

I never looked at the red stripe as meaning unclassified but now you come to mention it that means the stripes on the prototype HST catering vehicles now make sense

The red stripe simply meant catering

However, when I joined INTERCITY (as it was then) that was cleared up for me

As above, the whole point was to make it easier for the platform staff to identify the catering vehicle(s)

On a HST this was very obvious, as the stripes were so much thicker and clearer

 

However, during blue/grey the unclassified seating remained unstriped, hence why the TRUB had blue and red stripes, the red over the catering end

With the changeover to InterCity (raspberry ripple) it was decided the whole coach, where the seating was unclassified, should be covered by the red stripe

This was later disposed of as unclassified seating ended, and the introduction of the modular catering brought the seating as either standard or First Class

 

Sadly Farish (as yet) have not released a RFM in the INTERCITY West Coast format (later four windows version)

Strangely they have released all three versions in Virgin livery (TRSB, TRFM, and RFM)

[Pullman65]

Hi, Not strictly on topic, but can't find a thread which covers this. Did Virgin CL43 HSTs ever haul Virgin Mk2 coaches or were they without exception Mk3s. Only photos I've found are of CL47s hauling Mk2s.

[keefer]

HSTs only ever hauled mk3 HST vehicles as they needed to be wired for the HST control jumpers and for 415v 3-phase electrical supply

 

the mk2s (usually mk2e or 2f) were standard loco-hauled stock and could be mixed with mk3a loco-hauled vehicles. ISTR the virgin XC were all-mk2, but some secondary-service WCML sets could be mk2e/f seating coaches with a mk3a RFM buffet coach

[Pullman65]

Thanks keefer, thought that had to be the case.

[Hilux5972]

Does anyone have any formation lists for Virgin East Coast's HST sets? I saw a photo of an 11 coach set recently in the new Virgin East Coast livery and want to replicate a set with correct numbers.

 

Cheers all

[keefer]

I can't check myself, but there may be formations on the abrail database website

[Hilux5972]

It did indeed. Thanks very much. It did not include power car numbers though. Do the power cars get shuffled around between the coach sets?

[Classsix T]

I can't check myself, but there may be formations on the abrail database website

Didn't know about that site keefer, ta v. much!

 

C6T.

[Richard E]

Power cars do get swapped, so do coaches. Saw a VTEC set in Peterborough last week with one EMT coach and EMT power cars on it.

[45125]

Power cars do get swapped, so do coaches. Saw a VTEC set in Peterborough last week with one EMT coach and EMT power cars on it.

 

NL65 normally has EMT power cars and can have an EMT trailer if one of the VTEC liveried trailers has been knocked out.

[Ken.W]

Do the power cars get shuffled around between the coach sets?

Yes, they do, as the power cars have greater maintenance requirements than the coaches.

 

In fact, as EC HST maintenance is based at Craigentinny depot, it's not unknown for a defective power car on a through service to be changed in Waverley station

(yes, an HST doing a loco change in service!)

Similarly, at Kings X class 91s can be seen being changed on MkIV sets during turn-rounds

[Removed a/c]

Weren't they originally  to be kept as pairs WC 253 and EC 254? That's why the were reclassified as 43s as it wasn't always possible to keep them as matched sets. 

[D854_Tiger]

HSTs only ever hauled mk3 HST vehicles as they needed to be wired for the HST control jumpers and for 415v 3-phase electrical supply

 

the mk2s (usually mk2e or 2f) were standard loco-hauled stock and could be mixed with mk3a loco-hauled vehicles. ISTR the virgin XC were all-mk2, but some secondary-service WCML sets could be mk2e/f seating coaches with a mk3a RFM buffet coach

 

 

The Euston - Wolverhampton sets were mostly mk2 sets plus a mk3 buffet.

 

Virgin XC half sets were all mk2, Virgin's mk3 buffets were only used in their WCML formations.

 

Originally, there were no mk2 catering vehicles but some first class vehicles were converted for XC to contain a small mini-buffet plus first class.

 

However, on summer Saturdays, WCML sets would often be seconded to XC duties, including mk3 sets complete with a DVT in tow.

 

Euston - Wolverhampton mk2 sets (mk3 buffet) would find their way to Paignton and, for a while, a Euston - Manchester mk3 set was used for a Manchester - Penzance working.

 

At the time the Penzance working caught my eye and I decided on a day out catching the train from Stafford as there was engineering work around Wolverhampton.

 

The route was Stafford - Rugby (reverse) - Birmingham with a push pull class 87 followed by a loco change and a class 47 to the West Country.

 

A single class 47 over the Devon banks, with a full mk3 set, and home back up the Lickey seemed interesting.