Brighton-Plymouth formations, c1960

[10800]

Looking through the new Ian Allan album on "Hydraulics in the west" there are some photos of Warship-hauled Brighton-Plymouth services in the early 60s. I'm looking to have such a train on my (eventual) Tawbridge roundy-roundy but have some queries over the formation.

 

1959 and 1960 CWN Appendices refer to 6-sets 515 and 516 on this service, made up of BSK+SO+RB+SO+CK+BSK (all Mk1s). The photo on p78 of the abovementioned book however shows at least 7 coaches, with a Bulleid ?loose SO up front, then what may be a set but comprising what looks like BCK+Bulleid SO+Mk1 ?SO/SK+RB+CK+BCK (gets a bit hazy towards the back!).

 

Anyone with better information on the makeup of these trains?

 

(I'll ask on SRLHCS as well and post back any answers from there).

 

TIA

[Gwiwer]

I asked much the same question a couple of years back in regards to the same train in the 60's and 70's. A few replies were posted which confirmed by notes from the time that the train was (by then) 8 Mk1 coaches strengthened to 11 on summer Saturdays.

 

Warships were never normally used east of Salisbury as few Brighton men had traction knowledge. The service was normally steam-hauled until the 33's took over (initially only in summer as they only had eth but the stock didn't) though Warships made occasional forays as far as Brighton when the Crompton failed in the west. The last Warship to Brighton was 812 in around August 1971 which replaced a Crompton with defective speedometer. On such occasions the WR loco was run up to London light engine overnight and placed on a Waterloo - Exeter roster the next day.

 

I haven't seen any pictures of the service west of Exeter in diesel days so can't comment on what might have been in charge on that leg.

 

Before it was cut back to Exeter (which occurred as a result of the Okehampton - Bere Alston closure) two carriage sets were required; subsequent to that event it became an out-and-back working with the stock berthed overnight in Hove yard.

 

The service used to have a Portsmouth portion added and detached at Fareham for at least a short period in the early 60's. At this time and with the maximum load 8 available to a 33 west of Salisbury it may well have been the case that the Brighton portion was a 6-set with two from Pompey.

 

The last time I recall steam on the service was one night when I was waiting for a Brighton local at Goring-by-Sea. The "Exeter" came through behind what I suspect was an N15 in filthy condition and clanking fit to fall apart but at a decent speed. There were 8 Mk1's in tow and that would have been winter 1967 right at the end of steam haulage.

[Graham_Muz]

Rod

I do not have the evidence to back this up, as this is off the top of my head atm, but ceratinly it is my understanding from previous disccusions on the SeMG that Mk1 sets 515 and 516 were orignally BSK - CK - BSK when introduced and were strengthened in the Summer months with two Bulleid SO's (that were green when first used despite the Mk1 still being C+C) I have in fact modelled set 515 in this very formation.

The later addition into a summer version of the set with an RB does not surprise me.

 

Edited to correct to BSK rather than for some reason incorrectly originally typed BCK, sorry if any confusion was caused...

[10800]

I haven't seen any pictures of the service west of Exeter in diesel days so can't comment on what might have been in charge on that leg.

 

 

Thanks, useful info . The book referred to has two photos of this train west of Exeter - with green SYP Warship D809 in May'65 and and unidentified plain green Warship at Crediton in "the 1960s" (the one I tried to make out the formation). Amusing comment in the caption that the restaurant service finished at Exeter, but those in the know could help the staff eat the afternoon tea leftovers to Plymouth!

 

I'm now reminded of course that Bachmann haven't done an RB - so since this would be for my minimum-modelling-input train set, I may have to look out for a Replica one (used to have one of those, don't know what happened to it).

[10800]

The "Exeter" came through behind what I suspect was an N15 in filthy condition and clanking fit to fall apart but at a decent speed. There were 8 Mk1's in tow and that would have been winter 1967 right at the end of steam haulage.

 

Just reread this Rick - what year did you mean to write (can't have been '67)?

[Gwiwer]

Probably '66.

[Mallard60022]

I've got some details somewhere with the coach numbers too. I'd have to search though . In fact it was maybe even hidden in the depths of the Southern Email Group (is that it's name?) website; try that.

I do remember that the set makeup was different in the winter timetable and didn't (usually) have a parcels van. I think it was Mk1s only in the winter and in the summer, either a Bulleid 3 set or Mk1 3 set; can't be sure without going back to my sources.

Also N15s were long gone by 67; was possibly a Standard jobby, but I think the date is wrong.

Phil @ 36E

[Gwiwer]

Could have been a standard - I was a rather young Gwiwer at the time and didn't take notes either so it's only a memory.

[10800]

That would make sense - as Phil suggests, N15s were long gone then ('62?) and even S15s by '65 off the top of my head.

[10800]

Helpful response from Dick Flower on SRLHCS

 

Although sets 515 and 516 were at the core of the Plymouth – Brighton train, in the late 50s and very early 60s, it usually ran with at least 8 coaches, the 6B set often being supplemented by a couple of SKs, either Mk1 or Bulleids.

 

However, the 1959 Summer CWN has the train as 1 x BSK, 6B set (515 or 516) and a 4-set (SX), and a 6B set with a 4-set (SO). I’m sure I’ve seen a photo showing one of the RCAFs (ex Gresley Sleeping Cars S9211E or S9213E) in place of the RB.

 

Of course, all the above relate to the time before Warships were introduced. Two photos in The Salisbury to Exeter Line by OPC shows both the Up and Down trains at Seaton Junction hauled by un-rebuilt Light Pacifics on 18^th August 1964, The Up train looks to have 9 coaches on.

 

 

[10800]

Strangely enough some more information comes from the latest Southern Way (Mike King's article on Mk1s on the Southern pt2).

 

He refers as commonplace to the practice of augmenting 3- and 4-sets in the summer months with loose coaches, specifically 515-519 and 561-571. Bulleid TKs (SKs) were common, hence the transformation of 515 and 516 from 3-sets to 6-sets. Moreover, he refers to the Restaurant/Buffets in 515/6 as being Maunsell vehicles 1959-61, and Mk1s after that.

[Oldddudders]

Could have been a standard - I was a rather young Gwiwer at the time and didn't take notes either so it's only a memory.

Is it possible it was a Standard 5 bearing an Arthurian nameplate - as so many of the Southern ones did, thus leading to confusion so many years later?

[Gwiwer]

Memory doesn't recall a nameplate though it has hinted the number started with 3 not 7 which is why I didn't suggest a Standard in the first place. But as I said it is an undocumented moment in the past so we shall probably never know for sure.

[Mallard60022]

Memory doesn't recall a nameplate though it has hinted the number started with 3 not 7 which is why I didn't suggest a Standard in the first place. But as I said it is an undocumented moment in the past Almost certainly a Standard 5 with filth livery 7308XX or 731XX (7 could easily have been obscured as were most of the cabside numbers on these loco's at that time)

Just found this thread by means of Google! Even I have a mention in here!

Phil