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GWR 4 wheel brake 3rds with end duckets?


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Over on my workbench blog, I've recently shown a few 4rmm GWR four and six-wheel coaches and vans under construction. However, I've been wondering about a particular type of six-wheel brake third that shows up in several photographs. These are four compartment vehicles with a pair of luggage doors and the guards duckets are flush with the end. Russell (Pictorial History of Great Western Coaches vol 1, fig 38) shows one of these in later life as a departmental or camping vehicle, and he remarks that it is an exception to the more normal arrangement of guards compartment. Vaughan (Pictorial History of Great Western Architecture, plate 107) shows one at Leamington Spa. Incidentally, this is a very useful picture for those interested in gas lighting and piping arrangements. Maggs & Beale (The Camerton Branch, p19) show one as part of a mixed train in a postcard view of Camerton station in about 1905. Several examples also show up in the well-known shots of the Swindon broad gauge sidings as convertibles with narrow bodies on wide BG frames.

 

All of these are end or, at best, three-quarter, views so I would be interested to know of any broadside views of such stock that anyone has encountered. Does anyone have any idea of lot, diagram or running numbers? How about available 4mm kits? I've been thinking I might have a go at carving up some Ratio sides if nothing else is available.

 

So, in a nutshell, any information about these types would be much appreciated.

 

Nick

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Yes, they are pretty, but please note (thread title!) these were 4-wheelers, not 6. I don't think there were any end-ducket 6-wheelers. Anyway, these end-ducket 4-wheelers are a T diagram 31' brake 3rd, but the diagram number is unknown. (John Lewis might know.) Batch 582, completed 4/7/1891. Numbers were: 400/10/1/3/4/6/9/20/2/7/9/42/4/53/61-4/75/6. There might have been a pre-1890 batch(es), but I don't have that info. You already have probably the best broadside view - figure 59 of GW Coaches Volume 1. See also fig 45 for another 3/4 view. I think the Ratio sides would cut up fine, as the compartment widths are standard as far as I know - the only problem is the lack of panelling detail on the sides of the Ratio duckets.

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Excellent, thanks, Miss P :)

 

Although I'd seen Russell's fig 45 which I think is the same coach as in fig 38, I hadn't noticed the broadside view in fig 59. Obviously too busy looking for duckets which had been removed in this later shot. Why I assumed they were six wheelers, I don't know. A closer look at the Camerton photo shows that one to be a four wheeler, though it's not possible to tell in the photos. So this is the lot listed as diagram T.? in Harris, again, I'd been looking for six wheelers.

 

Yes, the ducket end panels might be a problem...

 

Nick

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Excellent, thanks, Miss P :)

 

Although I'd seen Russell's fig 45 which I think is the same coach as in fig 38, I hadn't noticed the broadside view in fig 59. Obviously too busy looking for duckets which had been removed in this later shot. Why I assumed they were six wheelers, I don't know. A closer look at the Camerton photo shows that one to be a four wheeler, though it's not possible to tell in the photos. So this is the lot listed as diagram T.? in Harris, again, I'd been looking for six wheelers.

 

Yes, the ducket end panels might be a problem...

 

Nick

 

IIRC, not having the book to hand, these had single arc roofs, which means the eaves panel is deeper than on the Ratio coaches. The ducket is also wider (sticks out more). (You can always be like me and ignore it!)

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IIRC, not having the book to hand, these had single arc roofs, which means the eaves panel is deeper than on the Ratio coaches. The ducket is also wider (sticks out more). (You can always be like me and ignore it!)

All those I've found in photos, even the BG ones, are three-arc but it keeps coming back to the duckets...

 

I may be mistaken, but the GWS at Didcot are finishing restoring no 416 at present Didcot coach

Excellent! Thanks for the link, I hadn't realised they were doing this.

 

Nick

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  • RMweb Gold

All those I've found in photos, even the BG ones, are three-arc but it keeps coming back to the duckets...

 

Nick

 

Nick, I may be missing the point here, but if you are looking for duckets for the conversion, I wonder if these could be used? These are V5 sides from Shirescenes, listed at 12 GBP. A bit much maybe, but not if compared to what we pay for eg wheels. I measured mine and they appear to be 2.5 mm deep.

 

post-738-12592739067782_thumb.jpg

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Nick, I may be missing the point here, but if you are looking for duckets for the conversion, I wonder if these could be used? These are V5 sides from Shirescenes, listed at 12 GBP. A bit much maybe, but not if compared to what we pay for eg wheels. I measured mine and they appear to be 2.5 mm deep.

Hi Mikkel,

 

Originally, I was just trying to identify the type and was musing about whether it could be another Ratio hack using parts from the brake and the all third. Now, thanks to the Didcot example, we can call it a T49 rather than just a T? The duckets then arose as a secondary issue. For most cases, I think you can probably get away with the over-simplistic duckets on the Ratio brake, but here, they are rather exposed at the ends and, as others have suggested, the Ratio ones may not be up to scratch.

 

Thanks for the reminder about Shirescenes. I had wondered about whether any of their sides could be adapted, but hadn't gone any further down that route as all this year their web site has said:

"FROM JANUARY 2009 UNTIL EASTER SHIRE SCENES WILL BE MOVING TO THE NEW ADDRESS ABOVE.

DURING THIS TIME THE BUSINESS WILL BE CLOSED. WE WILL POST OUR RE-OPENING ON THIS SITE."

As nothing further has appeared, I wonder whether they are still in business.

 

I've not seen any other source of suitable etched duckets.

 

Nick

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Not wanting to stray too far off thread wih the Shirescenes thing, but just seen in another post that Shirescenes appear to have ceased production sad.gif , so maybe worth hurrying if you decide to do it:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/761-shire-scenes-are-they-still-trading/page__pid__32457__st__0&?do=findComment&comment=32457

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  • 2 weeks later...

...these end-ducket 4-wheelers are a T diagram 31' brake 3rd, but the diagram number is unknown. (John Lewis might know.) Batch 582, completed 4/7/1891. Numbers were: 400/10/1/3/4/6/9/20/2/7/9/42/4/53/61-4/75/6. There might have been a pre-1890 batch(es), but I don't have that info. You already have probably the best broadside view - figure 59 of GW Coaches Volume 1. See also fig 45 for another 3/4 view. I think the Ratio sides would cut up fine, as the compartment widths are standard as far as I know - the only problem is the lack of panelling detail on the sides of the Ratio duckets.

 

 

...Now, thanks to the Didcot example, we can call it a T49 rather than just a T? The duckets then arose as a secondary issue. For most cases, I think you can probably get away with the over-simplistic duckets on the Ratio brake, but here, they are rather exposed at the ends and, as others have suggested, the Ratio ones may not be up to scratch.

 

In addition to the numbers given by Miss Prism there were a further 15 T49s built in 1894 to lot 700, nos. 2601-15.

 

There were also 2 other designs of similar 4 wheel coaches with duckets at the end, the T32 and U25. T32 details were:

lot 589, built 1891, nos. 330, 905/11-3/8/9/35/46/97

lot 701 built 1894 nos. 2606-20.

U25 was a composite, the compartment nearest the gauge being first class. U25 details were:

lot 739, built 1895, nos.(7)838-47

lot 767 built 1896 nos. (6)485-490.

There were 3 associated diagrams for those coaches which had the duckets removed: T33, T50 & U24. The duckets were removed from some coaches between 1910 and 1920, but I'm not sure of the exact dates.

 

post-6743-1260554548437_thumb.jpg

In time I will be adding more details of GWR short coaches to my website, but at the moment the information is limited to the early Metro style coaches which time appears to have forgotten.

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Penhros - many thanks for the U25, T49 and T32 drawings. Very nice!

 

Apropos the coach at Didcot (it must have been hiding until recently under one of their tarpaulins in the coach sheds), assuming it really is 416, then yes that would make it a T49 according to Harris. However, Harris denotes T49 as an 8'6" wide body, which would make it City stock, and not what Buffalo was after in the OP. And if T49 is City stock, why hasn't Didcot's example got the Holden doors? So is Harris wrong*? Is this a 8' body or an 8'6" body?

 

I'll start that second para again - having looked at my primary copy of Harris (I have two, no, don't ask), I have done a pencil amendment at some time in the past to denote lot 700 as 8' wide, rather than 8'6" as given in the list. Didcot's specimen is definitely 8' wide, because the 8'6" wide City stock didn't have duckets. Looking at some old correspondence with John Lewis, he confirms that figure 59 of GW Coaches Part One is a T49, and that lot 582 (which includes Didcot's example) is T49.

 

 

416.jpg

 

* there are some typos in his list

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You will find some photographs of the T49 coaches in the several volumes of "Severn and Wye", Ian Pope, published Wild Swan.

 

In vol.1 the bottom photo on page 136 is a difficult one. After much thought I think that the 2 coaches nearest the camera are T49, but the third coach is a U25. In vol.3 the bottom photo on page 549, the first coach is a U24, ie a U25 with the duckets removed.

 

Here are a couple of photos from my collection:

post-6743-1260616315103_thumb.jpg

9940 was built as no.416 in 1891, in 1935 it was converted to a camping coach and later transferred into departmental use as in this photo.

 

post-6743-12606163318675_thumb.jpg

An unknown T49 at an unknown location, unfortunately a water column, signpost & lamp block part of the view but the two panels between the compartments and guards van are visible, thus distinguishing it from a U24.

 

post-6743-12606163468056_thumb.jpg

9944 was also built in 1891 as 411 the rest of its history is similar to 9940 above, except that by the time the GWR diagram book was set up it had had its duckets removed and so became diagram T50. It has also had all of the panels plated over.

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  • 4 years later...
  • 6 years later...

Resurrecting this thread which popped up regarding GWR guards duckets with specific reference for me building the ex- Ratio T47 brake third.  The duckets do not have openings but from what I've learned were probably converted to T48's by the time I want to depict it in the late 1920's.

 

Thanks to Penhros1920 for this info on your excellent web site http://www.penrhos.me.uk/index.shtml

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