E.R.T.M.S.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

I also saw from LinkedIn last night that the ETCS Overlay on the Moorgate Line entered passenger service as well over the weekend.

 

Simon

[Steadfast]

1 hour ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi Jo,

 

1) Yes, the train describer, train detection etc works in exactly the same way as in a colour light system, so an ETCS train will show up on Open Train Times, TVSC screens, staff info screens. This would be the same for a no-signals arrangement (the Cambrian is on Open Train Times if you are interested!)

 

2) The colour lights are still lit and show the same aspects as they would under conventional signalling, with the movement authority displayed on the DMI would correspond with the signal aspect (i.e., the end of MA on the DMI would be at the same position as a red aspect). The only difference you will see on the lineside signals is that an approach control / release on junction signals or call-on is inhibited (i.e, there wouldn't be any) when a train is approaching in ETCS with a full supervision movement authority.

 

Simon

Spot on, thank you Simon. I'm sure we're a way off me driving under it yet but good to know how it works when the time comes.

 

Jo

[The Stationmaster]

On 27/11/2023 at 10:34, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I believe that the E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay between Ealing Broadway and Heathrow Junction (to connect with the existing Level 2 Overlay on the Heathrow Branch) was commissioned over the weekend and is in operation.

 

Currently this will be extent of E.T.C.S. on Western for a long time.

 

Simon

Any connection with what was described as 'a signal failure' on the Heathrow branch last Monday?  Or was that down to something else?

[Banger Blue]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Any connection with what was described as 'a signal failure' on the Heathrow branch last Monday?  Or was that down to something else?

Yes, the disruption was all connected, it wasn’t a smooth transition at all. Someone may correct me but I think some of the Class 345s were still installed with an earlier version of the required software. Something like that!

[corneliuslundie]

It would never have happened with semaphore signalling . . .

Hat, coat . . . .

J

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

Yes, the disruption was all connected, it wasn’t a smooth transition at all. Someone may correct me but I think some of the Class 345s were still installed with an earlier version of the required software. Something like that!

Nothing moving to/from the branch in the early part of teh day but when I was on my way home lateish in teh afternoon I saw the unusual sight of a HEXliveried 387 approaching Hayes on the Down Relief so I wonder if it was doing some trsting.  Looked empty but as the 387 I was on was busily zooming along the Down Main it was only a quick sight of the HEX liveried one.

[St. Simon]

21 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

Yes, the disruption was all connected, it wasn’t a smooth transition at all. Someone may correct me but I think some of the Class 345s were still installed with an earlier version of the required software. Something like that!

 

Hi,

 

We are on the outskirts of information delivery for the project, but there's lots of theories flying about, but I would personally be looking on the train side of things rather than lineside, but don't quote me on, it's an educated guess!

 

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Nothing moving to/from the branch in the early part of teh day but when I was on my way home lateish in teh afternoon I saw the unusual sight of a HEXliveried 387 approaching Hayes on the Down Relief so I wonder if it was doing some trsting.  Looked empty but as the 387 I was on was busily zooming along the Down Main it was only a quick sight of the HEX liveried one.

 

A work around was quickly found and is either still working or they have resolved the whole thing!

 

Simon

[ess1uk]

On 27/11/2023 at 10:34, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

I believe that the E.T.C.S. Level 2 Overlay between Ealing Broadway and Heathrow Junction (to connect with the existing Level 2 Overlay on the Heathrow Branch) was commissioned over the weekend and is in operation.

 

Currently this will be extent of E.T.C.S. on Western for a long time.

 

Simon

 

as reported online

 

Quote

Over the weekend of 25th/26th November 2023, Alstom, Resonate and Network Rail successfully delivered the first large scale deployment of the European Train Control System (ETCS) Level 2 overlay on a UK main line railway. The team, supported by key partners Synergy Rail and by operators GWR, MTR Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express, commissioned this system into use on the Great Western Main Line between Heathrow Airport Junction and Acton. The ETCS Level 2 system offers a range of benefits including increased safety, capacity, availability, and operational efficiency. Alstom’s Atlas™ ETCS solution has been deployed, which seamlessly integrates with Alstom’s Smartlock™ interlocking product. Since the commissioning, the project team have been monitoring the performance of the system in service. This deployment is a historic milestone for the UK railway industry and an important stepping stone towards the rollout of ETCS onto many more lines nationwide.

Explainer: What is ETCS Level 2 overlay?
 
In ETCS Level 2 the train is under the continuous supervision of the Radio Block Centre (RBC). The RBC issues successive movement authority messages over the radio (GSM-R) to the train and these messages progressively update the speed and distance limits within which the train is permitted to travel. The train’s brakes will automatically apply if the train begins to exceed the speed or distance envelope. The RBC is informed by the interlocking which provides safety critical logic. On the railway, the only visible features which indicate that the ETCS Level 2 system has been installed are the small yellow boxes between the rails, known as balises, which ensure that a train’s position is accurately validated and can transmit site specific messages to the train, together with some associated signs. In an overlay, the ETCS Level 2 subsystem and the existing colour light signals can operate side by side. It will be possible to remove most of the colour light signals at a later date after all units of rolling stock working a line of route have been fitted with ETCS on board computers and displays in the driver’s cabs.

 

[corneliuslundie]

I notice that it has been reported that the Class 197s will not appear on the Cambrian line until winter 2024 owing to compatibility issues with the ERTMS. I thought the Cambrian line had recently been upgraded.

Jonathan

[ess1uk]

More work is taking place on the ECML this weekend 

[ess1uk]

First in class 66039 is ready to undergo testing of its Siemens ETCS equipment at Old Dalby 

[5944]

1 hour ago, ess1uk said:

First in class 66039 is ready to undergo testing of its Siemens ETCS equipment at Old Dalby 

Hopefully it'll work better than 387101, which is currently 18 months into an 11 month programme for fitment and testing!

[ess1uk]

On 30/04/2024 at 22:04, 5944 said:

Hopefully it'll work better than 387101, which is currently 18 months into an 11 month programme for fitment and testing!

Don’t the 387s out of Paddington have ETCS fitted?

 

[Mike_Walker]

3 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

Don’t the 387s out of Paddington have ETCS fitted?

 

Only those dedicated to the Heathrow Express, not the general GWR fleet.

 

[ess1uk]

6 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Only those dedicated to the Heathrow Express, not the general GWR fleet.

 

So they shouldn’t be too difficult to fit for the remaining few that work out of Kings Cross?

[5944]

3 hours ago, ess1uk said:

So they shouldn’t be too difficult to fit for the remaining few that work out of Kings Cross?

Physically, no, not that difficult, though it's an aftermarket mod so not as simple as fitting during construction. I'm not entirely sure what the issue is with 387101, but I believe it's related to having both ETCS and TPWS installed which is causing the problems.

 

Some of the GN ones have had parts of the underframe equipment fitted - balises, cabling, brackets, etc - but nothing upstairs yet. Though work will now be concentrated on 387102-115 as the first 15 are staying with GN, the rest will be moving south of the river once the 379s are transferred across.

[wombatofludham]

Going slightly off piste, I'm just watching a "cab ride" video of the Wuppertal Schwebebahn, and am surprised to see it is fully ETCS cab signalled.  It seems a bit odd to see the "yellow arrow" block markers dangling from the overhead structure but probably says more about how ETCS is fast becoming the default signalling kit for new signalling systems than any aspiration to open up the "Danglebahn" to international open access operators.  I suspect the built in ATP in ETCS is a vital safeguard for the unique characteristics of the route.

[Edwin_m]

23 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Going slightly off piste, I'm just watching a "cab ride" video of the Wuppertal Schwebebahn, and am surprised to see it is fully ETCS cab signalled.  It seems a bit odd to see the "yellow arrow" block markers dangling from the overhead structure but probably says more about how ETCS is fast becoming the default signalling kit for new signalling systems than any aspiration to open up the "Danglebahn" to international open access operators.  I suspect the built in ATP in ETCS is a vital safeguard for the unique characteristics of the route.

Hmm, yes their risk assessments would be interesting.  Collision "derailing" the overhead running gear could result in a fall from a significant height into a river.  

[wombatofludham]

There was a nasty collision a while back where a train hit some engineering kit causing it to derail and fall into the river.  Even so, I was surprised to see that ETCS Level 2 is installed on a line where "inter-operability" is pretty much the last thing needed!

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

There was a nasty collision a while back where a train hit some engineering kit causing it to derail and fall into the river.  Even so, I was surprised to see that ETCS Level 2 is installed on a line where "inter-operability" is pretty much the last thing needed!

 

They might want to connect with another monorail elsewhere in the EU in due course  .

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g211855-d3267800-Reviews-Lartigue_Monorail-Listowel_County_Kerry.html

 

[icn]

10 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

There was a nasty collision a while back where a train hit some engineering kit causing it to derail and fall into the river.  Even so, I was surprised to see that ETCS Level 2 is installed on a line where "inter-operability" is pretty much the last thing needed!

Most likely it's simply the most cost effective and future proof option. There's probably a larger choice of suppliers for example. Presumably the other options are an expensive custom system, or the German legacy systems which will become unavailable at some point.

Edited May 5 by icn

[david.hill64]

21 hours ago, icn said:

Most likely it's simply the most cost effective and future proof option. There's probably a larger choice of suppliers for example. Presumably the other options are an expensive custom system, or the German legacy systems which will become unavailable at some point.

The other options would include standard metro signalling systems such as Siemens Trainguard or the CBTC systems produced by Alstom/Bombardier and Hitachi/Thalys. 

Metro systems are excluded from the interoperability directive, so there is no standard metro CBTC system. 

I suspect that the Wuppertal system is an ETCS level 2 system as it is unlikely that they need moving block. So likely both cost-effective and  future proof.

[wombatofludham]

It is ETCS Level 2.

I expect the relative availability of the kit which no doubt has been approved by the German Rail Approval authorities meant it was probably as cost effective as any bespoke or off the peg non-ETCS system.  It looks like Israeli Railways are also resignalling their upgraded and new lines with ETCS based on other cab videos I've watched so it is clear that ETCS is becoming a more mature technology.

Apart from the UK it seems.

[david.hill64]

7 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Apart from the UK it seems.

I think that is rather harsh. 

 

There is a world of difference between equipping self contained monorail systems or small national railways and complex conventional national systems with a variety of rolling stock, complex layouts and existing signalling systems.

 

I think that the UK approach has been rational. Try it first on a lightly used, relatively unimportant line (Cambrian) where problems are unlikely to affect the national network to any serious degree. More than 10 years experience. Success.

 

Then with that experience under your belt, feel confident enough to introduce it - together with an ATO add on -through the Thameslink core route where performance is critical. You still have the simplicity of a unified fleet but are now getting experience in a high risk operational environment. Success.

 

Then take a deep breath and integrate it with two other signalling systems on another line where performance is critical (Elizabeth line). Success.

 

Next up equip a conventional main line and a wide variety of rolling stock - electric, diesel and steam.

 

Seems reasonable to me.

Edited May 6 by david.hill64

[david.hill64]

Reading back through the last pages it seems that the ETCS applications are being done as an overlay. I can understand why that is (cheaper and migration easier) but that eliminates one of the benefits of ETCS: improved capacity. (You can use shorter block sections where you have continuous ATP as some of the safety margins are not required and where you have slow lines next to fast you can optimise the block sections on the slow for that traffic rather than being constrained to use longer sections than necessary so that signals on adjacent lines are aligned).

 

Is the plan generally to retain existing blocks or will they be optimized? Or will higher speeds be allowed?