End to End early 1990s NSE?

[S.A.C Martin]

I've been thinking I have been trying to run before I can walk, for some time now. I have been building up stock and buildings, and similar, for a layout based around Copley Hill in the 1950s (and will continue to build stock up as it is my ultimate aim), however the thought occurs that:

 

a ) I have very little experience building baseboards.

 

b ) I have very little experience making track look realistic.

 

c ) Scenery is not something I have done much of either, though I have made a few buildings out of card and similar, here and there.

 

d ) I've long thought about an end to end layout, but always gone for a roundy round because I like seeing trains run round.

 

But over the last week, I've been studying some old photographs of my dad's around the Sidcup area, and noted the sheer number of four car and eight car VEP (Class 423) sets that can be seen crossing the railway bridge in Sidcup.

 

That spurred me to look at a Google map, and see if the idea of making a layout based on Sidcup had merit:

 

 

So you essentially have a double track main line, with a station, railway bridge, and sidings just at the end on the right hand side. So that got me thinking. What about something like this?

 

 

Say you make it as two baseboards, 8x2. You can definitely get the front part of the station in, with the car Park, and perhaps the offices to the left of the car park and "Christopher House", the office block to the left of the station. So the scenic setting is on two 8x2 baseboards and includes the station, the bridge, and the offices, as well as perhaps part of the Sidcup station car Park and the old Metro Bar the other side.

 

The raised embankment of the Sidcup line would make an interesting change from the relatively flat layouts that can be seen on the circuit of this nature, and the forthcoming VEPs would allow me to backdate it to when I first started living in Sidcup, and can still readily remember some of the details and trains which ran through the station.

 

Either side of the two 8x2 baseboards would be a 6x2 board with four sidings to store stock. The advantage of doing Sidcup is that the majority of the trains were 4 coach and 8 coach rakes (from what I remember without looking it up), so you could have two VEPs at either end, four car rakes, in various states of grime and graffiti, and perhaps a goods train featuring an NSE 50 and some ballast wagons which could be swapped from either end.

 

It would look like it was actually running a real service while at the same time only using the bare minimum of stock necessary to give it the right look.

 

I've toyed with other layouts away from my main railway interests for years, but this one keeps coming back to the top of the pile, and the forthcoming Hornby VEPs seem like an opportunity to finally get off the computer chair and do some proper modelling for a change.

 

Your thoughts, as always, greatly appreciated.

[kintbury jon]

You could also include a few blue/grey Bachmann 2 EPB's with Kent Link Branding, Hornby Networkers in NSE. Did 33's used to go through on freights? Civil engineers, Blue and Railfreight construction 33's, 73's in a variety of liveries - might be better than the 50.

[Pugsley]

It sounds like quite an interesting idea. You could run a fairly intensive looking service with 2 or 3 VEPS, perhaps as 1 x 4 car and 1 x 8 car sets. Additional variety could be added by having all units done differently on both sides, further adding to the illusion. Chuck in a 33 or 73 on ballast occasionally, or a small Speedlink working, and you've got quite a nice layout.

 

Consider using the extruded polystyrene board for the baseboard, it really is simplicity itself, especially if you have little experience.

 

And of course, all the best people model early '90's NSE...

[James]

It looks like an interesting project and not something I'd have imagined you building if I'm honest!

[S.A.C Martin]

Just to say first chaps, thanks for your replies, I've +1'd you all.

 

You could also include a few blue/grey Bachmann 2 EPB's with Kent Link Branding, Hornby Networkers in NSE. Did 33's used to go through on freights? Civil engineers, Blue and Railfreight construction 33's, 73's in a variety of liveries - might be better than the 50.

 

That sounds really rather attractive - I have quite fancied one of those Heljan 33s for some time, though I'm dubious about the Hornby 73...!

 

RE the Networkers, do they have the centre coaches that the real sets have? Every pack I've ever seen only has the outer ends :S

 

It sounds like quite an interesting idea. You could run a fairly intensive looking service with 2 or 3 VEPS, perhaps as 1 x 4 car and 1 x 8 car sets. Additional variety could be added by having all units done differently on both sides, further adding to the illusion. Chuck in a 33 or 73 on ballast occasionally, or a small Speedlink working, and you've got quite a nice layout.

 

Consider using the extruded polystyrene board for the baseboard, it really is simplicity itself, especially if you have little experience.

 

That's a really neat idea Pugsley. I could perhaps make the embankment out of polysterene, and the gradient going under the bridge and up the high street too.

 

And of course, all the best people model early '90's NSE...

 

Noting your signature, of course

 

It looks like an interesting project and not something I'd have imagined you building if I'm honest!

 

It is a change from the norm but it's because I don't want to compromise on my Copley Hill "dream" layout. I'll still be modelling 50s steam and pursuing pieces for the eventual layout, just practicing with something else in the time being. Of course, if I model it well, the era doesn't have to be too set in its ways, and I could have Tornado and support coach running over the bridge on the odd occasion

[James]

A different subject matter may help you look at things afresh - you'll have to almost start from scratch which, as a learning exercise, may be a very good thing

 

Will it 00?

[kintbury jon]

Hornby have only done the 2 car Networkers, but i'd have thought you could get away with a 4 or 6 car rake should you be able to make an external coupling for them. They're not the best of units though they look right. Plenty of class 33 options, I have eight of them and really like them. There's the issue of the 33/0 bodyshell not being right but you can either hold on for the rail express ltd edition pairs (though pricey) but my suggestion would be to get one or many of 33207 in Railfrieight Construction, a blue 33/1 or 33/2, a dutch 33/1 or 33/2. Hattons were chucking them out a while back but a quick check shows that they've sold out of them - I bet they could be got fairly easily though.

 

The Hornby 73 is OK but I prefer the finish of the Lima ones (particularly with NSE and Intercity) therefore all of mine have Lima bodies. They run soothly (a bit fast!) but lack power though they're not too bad double heading.

[S.A.C Martin]

A different subject matter may help you look at things afresh - you'll have to almost start from scratch which, as a learning exercise, may be a very good thing

 

Will it 00?

 

I think so, but I'd like to change the sleeper arrangement to make it look better.

[James]

I think so, but I'd like to change the sleeper arrangement to make it look better.

You could maybe have a look at Fast Track - the FB on concretes might suit your period. If you're happy to overlook the not quite right sleepers for use with the third rail! Just a thought!

[Oldfield_Park]

If you wanted to run a regular steam train, then don't forget that you wouldn't be pushing the boat out too much by running a representation of the VSOE/British Pullman on an excursion to Leeds Castle or Canterbury.

 

If, however, you did want to push it out a little more, then how about a Birmingham or Manchester to Ramsgate CrossCountry service? Think something along the lines of those obscure workings to Eastbourne and Newhaven that IC ran for a while around this period. They usually ran with an LRFT 47 at front, but sometimes with anything that could be rustled up, especially in the mid-late 80s and earliest part of the 90s when loco changes occurred at Willesden. You'd have to model it as a diverted working I reckon, but it's more scope for something different.

[kintbury jon]

Other stock options would be an MLV though you'd probably need to paint it yourself in either PO Red, Jaffa or NSE. The Bachmann 4CEP is a lovely model though it doesn't really go with the early 1990's. You could consider converting one to the prototype refurbished 1500 in Jaffa Cake livery. This was done by John Upton, his conversion inspired me to convert one as well!

[S.A.C Martin]

You could maybe have a look at Fast Track - the FB on concretes might suit your period. If you're happy to overlook the not quite right sleepers for use with the third rail! Just a thought!

 

I'll take a look, thanks James. Worst case scenario is make my own sleepers using a 3D printed master and making resin copies.

 

If you wanted to run a regular steam train, then don't forget that you wouldn't be pushing the boat out too much by running a representation of the VSOE/British Pullman on an excursion to Leeds Castle or Canterbury.

 

If, however, you did want to push it out a little more, then how about a Birmingham or Manchester to Ramsgate CrossCountry service? Think something along the lines of those obscure workings to Eastbourne and Newhaven that IC ran for a while around this period. They usually ran with an LRFT 47 at front, but sometimes with anything that could be rustled up, especially in the mid-late 80s and earliest part of the 90s when loco changes occurred at Willesden. You'd have to model it as a diverted working I reckon, but it's more scope for something different.

 

That sounds rather interesting - the LRFT 47 does appeal. Part of my reasoning for a 50 earlier was because I have an absolutely distinct memory of a spotless NSE class 50 towing a 423/1 through Sidcup one day (or was it loco hauled slam door stock?). Sadly I don't remember which one it was - Dauntless rings a bell, but I don't think it had NSE livery, so it's unlikely to be that one.

 

Other stock options would be an MLV though you'd probably need to paint it yourself in either PO Red, Jaffa or NSE. The Bachmann 4CEP is a lovely model though it doesn't really go with the early 1990's. You could consider converting one to the prototype refurbished 1500 in Jaffa Cake livery. This was done by John Upton, his conversion inspired me to convert one as well!

 

I'll have to take a look, that again sounds very interesting, adds to the variety.

 

For something which I started to see what was viable, it is definitely looking like a goer from the start, insomuch as the variety of stock and the service is concerned.

 

EDIT:

 

Forgot to say, asked the station staff at Sidcup if I could take some photographs tomorrow lunchtime when it's a bit quieter. It won't match the period I'm looking to model of course, but I wanted to get some photographs to get a better sense of the geography of the area.

[S.A.C Martin]

Okay, went and did some photography today. Thanks to Dave, Liz and Phil at Sidcup station for giving me free rein to take photographs (but of course, keeping behind the lines and going only where it was safe and legal to do so).

 

 

A view from the bridge (pun intended). Looking towards London, Christopher House is the tall office block on the left. The road going under the railway bridge goes towards Blackfen on the right, and towards Sidcup High Street on the left.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do like the thought of VEPs and Networkers mingling in NSE livery, but the urge to try and make it somewhat "timeless" to have the Networkers in their new colours of Lilac and Navy Blue appeals too. I can only just remember slam door stock on the Sidcup line, I'm fairly sure they had all gone by 1994 (?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of the great things about Sidcup station is that the paintwork on the bridge tells a story. I thought I was going mad when I remembered that the bridge, the benches, the fences, and even the station canopy columns were painted bright red at one time, it seems everything had various coats of yellow, grey, blue, blue, yellow and blue again coated over the top of the red coat (applied during the NSE period?)

 

 

Yes, even the barbed tops to the fences are in the plan! These I believe were also originally red, to match the fences.

 

 

 

 

 

The photograph above is what I'd like to see, ideally, as an angle from my layout: the office block with the trees in front and St George's park behind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the road looking towards Blackfen. The sign to the right used to be "The Iron Horse" and it featured the Jupiter, an American 4-4-0 of some fame. Now it features - of all engines - an A4 Pacific (given my LNER bias, you'd expect I'd like that, and you'd be right, I do like the sign! However a Bulleid of some form would have been more accurate).

 

 

 

This was, I think, the old Coal Merchant's kiosk when Sidcup's car park on this side was, instead, the goods sidings for the station.

 

 

Some detail of the office block. I really want to get this one in, as it sets the scene as Sidcup and gives it character.

 

EDIT: Also found this terrific website with lots of photographs of various potential trains:

 

Peter Tandy Electrics

 

Lots to think over!

[dave_long]

I like the ornate barbed fencing. Looks a nice location plenty of details to model.

[S.A.C Martin]

I like the ornate barbed fencing. Looks a nice location plenty of details to model.

 

Definitely a nice location Although I've discovered a little niggle: it seems the fencing may have always been dark blue, but the items around it (benches/lamps/cameras/displays) were red.

 

EDIT: I've also got a funny feeling that EPBs worked the Sidcup route in some route - may have missed the boat on the new Bachmann ones then!

[Flying Pig]

The blue-grey version of Bachmann's 2EPB carries NSE flashes and "Kent Link" route branding and is just arriving in the shops. However check the discussions in the Bachmann section of the forum for comments about the use of 2EPBs on Kent suburban routes, particularly "red stripe" units like the Bachmann model.

[S.A.C Martin]

The blue-grey version of Bachmann's 2EPB carries NSE flashes and "Kent Link" route branding and is just arriving in the shops. However check the discussions in the Bachmann section of the forum for comments about the use of 2EPBs on Kent suburban routes, particularly "red stripe" units like the Bachmann model.

 

Thanks Simon, I'll take a look there tomorrow

 

Started drawing out a really basic (and I mean seriously basic!) track plan this evening, will scan in and post here tomorrow evening.

[S.A.C Martin]

Okay, made a few questions on the 2EPB thread here, and have found a photograph of a rather delightful 2EPB+2EPB (2x2EPB?) at Hither Green, on its way to Sidcup, coming from Charing Cross. Link here.

 

Mr Tandy's photographs proving immensely useful.

 

So, the idea germinating thus based on the above information...

Stocklist:

 

EMUs:

 

Set 1 - 2xEPBs, Blue/Grey and NSE.

Set 2 - 4VEP, NSE.

Set 3 - 4VEP, NSE.

Set 4 - 2x4VEPs, Blue/Grey and NSE.

 

The idea being to start with a single VEP and 2EPB as I build the layout, to generally get a feel for the era and potential of the layout, and as it gets closer to completion, then (and only then) will I start thinking about buying up the rest!

 

I am still working on the track plan, the two baseboards for the scenic work is simple enough - a double track mainline, curved! But the baseboards either side of the centre two need to accommodate 4 and 8 coach trains, potentially, and allow them to swap lines and come back on themselves.

 

More on this as I mull over the possbilities. Going to take a look at the delightful Leaford for some more inspiration and musings.

[Redkiterail]

S.A.C Martin dont forget DC kits for things like 4epb and refurbish 4cep if they are in stock you can have a class 33 or 73 with a diverted nuclear train from dungerness and there is the train ferry railfrieght that could have gone through sidcup on diverision

[kintbury jon]

That lot sounds good. Hopefully someone will do a limited edition NSE 2EPB if Bachmann don't decide to offer it later on. Same with the blue/grey VEP.

[Karhedron]

That lot sounds good. Hopefully someone will do a limited edition NSE 2EPB if Bachmann don't decide to offer it later on. Same with the blue/grey VEP.

They will probably happen at some point if the originals sell well. Remember that these units were refurbished in the 80s so the toolings will need modifying for the NSE versions. So don't expect them straight away as it is not just a question of a new livery.

[griffgriff]

They will probably happen at some point if the originals sell well. Remember that these units were refurbished in the 80s so the toolings will need modifying for the NSE versions. So don't expect them straight away as it is not just a question of a new livery.

 

 

I'd put money on a limited edition 'toothpaste' set, but on a unmodified set.

 

However modifying the interior is much easier than painting full NWSE... I know from experience but that's another story

[kintbury jon]

I'd put money on a limited edition 'toothpaste' set, but on a unmodified set.

 

However modifying the interior is much easier than painting full NWSE... I know from experience but that's another story

 

 

Agreed. A very unforgiving livery!

[tetsudofan]

A very interesting project - I lived just up the line at Mottingham until August 1966 but used Sidcup Station a couple of years earlier when I got a summer holiday job at the Sidcup branch of Barclays Bank (up the hill from the Station).

 

At that time there was a staple diet of 2-EPB and 4-EPBs with a class C steamie doing the pick-up goods. The 4-DD DoubleDecker did a run during the rush hours. Nothing like 4-VEPs coming through although you did get the occasional train of 2-HALs probably coming up from Gillingham.

 

Look forward to seeing this project developing.......

 

Keith

[S.A.C Martin]

The 4-DD DoubleDecker did a run during the rush hours.

 

There's a very funny story about that! A few years ago, my mum had this urge to tell me a few memories of hers that had been niggling her. One was of a large, blue steam engine she'd seen as a little girl, going through the cutting into Albany Park (we've never since been able to work out what it was), and the other was being in her teens, and riding in a double deck train on the Sidcup line.

 

Nonsense, I said, Britain's never had double deck trains (oh the folly!). We argued back and forth for months on this, until one day, with a few friends at the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway (we were in one of the carriage sheds), I saw a photograph of people trying out the seating arrangement in the Bulleid Double Decker.

 

Not believing my eyes, I marveled that my mother had been absolutely right about the train's existence - and then came the sheer astonishment when I realized the young lady in the front of the photograph, smiling at the camera, was none other than my mother!