Heljan Beyer garratt

[46256]

Any chance of a picture of the motors / how fitted ?

Thanks in advance if you can

I have asked my friend Paul to contribute to this thread....when l last spoke with him he stated he would....he was however in the middle of rebuilding a rivarossi big boy that had been dropped. I gather the garratt was ....somewhat simpler to fix. You can imagine having got a sweet running loco albeit at a price ...well I have a certain reluctance to mess with it and remove the fittings to show how it has been achieved. I do appreciate however the frustration contributors to this thread are experiencing, and will seek to photo the new motor assembly. I gather it was straightforward using the mashima 10 series.....will find out tomorrow when I remove the front tender body...

[Horsetan]

...will seek to photo the new motor assembly. ...

Will the photo turn out suitably blurred so that we're still none the wiser?

[46256]

Ivan I take your point, I will certainly review the photos before posting given the limitations of both my skill behind the lens and my I pad...I will hope to show what I have yet to check myself...but assured by Paul that the mashimas are an easy replacement using the existing gear shaft....will see in due course. Of now to do my day job ....wedding photography.

[46256]

here goes....as promised....just reassembled and running again...suddenly front assembly seizes up.....de jevu ...panic...fear....no just clumsiness on handling for photo had pushed the crosshead and slidebars in....colliding with front coupling rods....gentle easing out and back to working order. I fear had I done this with the original motor this would have proved too much for it..in any event I hope I have assisted this debate/ investigation best wishes Brian......to be fair my selfies always look better blurred....

[Horsetan]

Enough room there to fit a flywheel on the other shaft.

 

...now to do my day job ....wedding photography.

To be fair, my memory of most of the weddings I've attended has been decidedly blurred. Edited May 7, 2016 by Horsetan

[Joe MCMLXI]

Hi, is it possible to find out which of the Mashima Series 10 motors this is please? I believe there are several to choose from, 1015D,  1020D  1024D

 

many thanks, Joe

[Golden Fleece 30]

I was looking at the 1024's for mine but waiting to see how the replacements went first.

[46256]

I will find out and post which of the mashima motors was used...

[46256]

Wishing to report fully , I think it appropriate to record how my now remotered garratt performs. This is on, ...nearly my tighest radii....on an incline ...not a great one...definitely not a lickey....but the yardstick for my kitbuild..scratch chassis...to test their pulling ability..

The garratt pulled 20 wagons easily on my level..majority of layout...on the curve from hell this was its limit.... I will run my portescap kitmaster tomorrow with a similar train and report any difference in hauling ability...I do know my Hornby 8fs and Bachmann 9fs will exceed this....the obvious reason their lone body / chassis arrangement can deliver more traction than the smeller drive units necessary in the model garratt....one last point on tight curves it's not just any incline that requires traction but an inertia of the train being pulled around a curve...

 

All of the above is not to regret the decision to remotor...The replacements .....well let's put it this way I would have paid more in first instance if these mashimas were in this loco on manufacture. One unresolved dilemma...I have the two replacement Chinese motors...bought for peanuts....Paul is of the pinion they are a better spec Than the originals...how would they perform...please I got the details of this site for these...if anyone has fitted and getting good results please let us know!

[46256]

Sorry for the spelling and grammar on my last post but the latest 22.11 63 was about to start

[adb968008]

Thanks for the picture, was that motor a pretty much like for like replacement then ?

I don't see any hacking at the chassis, indeed it looks like a drop fit..

 

Very nice.

Edited May 9, 2016 by adb968008

[Golden Fleece 30]

If the replacements are 12mm in diameter then even with flats on as above they should just drop in.  The chassis castings are machined to be 12mm dia with two small grooves for the O rings to hold the motor.  Therefore there should be no cutting or machining of the chassis blocks as such.  The Mashima's are supposed to have the same size shaft to fit the flywheel too.

[46256]

Just confirmed the mashimas are 10/20 flat can with 1.5mm shaft hope that helps

[46256]

No hacking or removal of the mount area was required

[M Graff]

image.jpeg

Considering the available space, wouldn't it be worth milling the frame and get rid of the flywheels?

A longer and a bit wider motor would be very powerful.

We have a CNC mill that could be put to good use. Maybe someone has a cheap dead Garratt I could be experimenting with?

Edited May 10, 2016 by M Graff

[cctransuk]

Considering the available space, wouldn't it be worth milling the frame and get rid of the flywheels?

A longer and a bit wider motor would be very powerful.

We have a CNC mill that could be put to good use. Maybe someone has a cheap dead Garratt I could be experimenting with?

 

My understanding is that lack of pulling power is not an issue - just the ability of the motor to sustain a load for a reasonable period; (probably due to poor design of the brush-gear).

 

A larger motor should not be required, just a better designed and built one.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[jjb1970]

Hattons attitude to product support is disappointing to say the least. I'd be tempted to notify them that if they refuse to offer to repair the model then I'd seek redress via the small claims process under the consumer rights act or whatever its called these days and see if that helps. Given the various issues that have been reported there'd be at least a fighting chance of demonstrating that there was an inherent problem with the model.

Edited May 10, 2016 by jjb1970

[Theakerr]

Recently I was talking to a Gentleman about the problems with the motors in the Garret and he wondered if the two motors being just a little "out of sync" with each might result in different loads on each motor and working against each other.  Consequently, one of the thoughts that came up was would it be better to put two decoders in, one for each motor, and then set them up as a consist.  Just a thought.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Theakerr

[Ian Hargrave]

My understanding is that lack of pulling power is not an issue - just the ability of the motor to sustain a load for a reasonable period; (probably due to poor design of the brush-gear).

 

A larger motor should not be required, just a better designed and built one.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

So we're agreed it is the motor(s) that causes the problem ? Did I not read some posts quite a while ago on this topic that puts the failure down to the valve gear locking up thus causing motor burnout ? Does anyone have what I might tremble to call a "definitive" answer set in tablets of stone ? Hattons,who must needs have the answer, remain silent.Meanwhile it appears that all we are left with is intelligent guesswork.

 

It will be instructive to learn of the experiences of those members who have remotored their locos after a few months running.

 

DC Kits had an LMS version on sale at the Derby show on Sat. at the original price ( yes..£199 !) I asked if it was new and ran ok. The gent said it had been "out of the box" and done a circuit. I had a momentary twinge .....but quickly bottled out.I wonder if it sold.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Those are related failure causes, and I don't think you will get anything more definitive. The motors can fail 'on their' own while running, and failure can be helped on its way by a valve gear lock up, and any other mechanical problem leading to more load in the drive train.

 

If DCC operation is employed I feel that the suggestion above of two decoders and close speed matching is the best plan. I mentioned very early that twin motored diesel models with worm drives wore far faster than similar weight spur geared twin motored units, and believe this was due to speed mismatch which spur gear tolerates better than worm. (DC control, no possibility of independently running the motors.)

[Golden Fleece 30]

Running motors "out of sync" surely cannot be the reason unless there was a very large discrepancy?  How many times have people over the years double headed trains? A lot with different classes and makes of loco without either ever burning out so that excuse does not come into the factor here.  You cannot say a Bachmann Jubilee is geared and motored the same as a Hornby 4-4-0 yet they can run happily together without burning out.

 

I did say after removing my burnt out motor that the valve gear/chassis was still free running as much as I could turn it by hand due to the small drive shaft.  To me the chassis locked up as the motor had ceased to work.

 

I cannot run mine for a while now as the layout is being dismantled for other work to be done but if the new replacement motors from Heljan do not work then I will be using Mashima's which I had already thought of before the replacements came.

 

To me (and a few friends electrical and mechanical) it is just very poor motor design.  The looseness of the valve gear is not good, pretty poor really but that has not been the cause in our opinions.  I see from the Heljan 2-8-0 thread there are loose valve gear issues, crankpins just screwed directly into plastic which then strip, sounds like another issue.  I said I would never have another Heljan loco (I am not a diesel man) and this just proves me right.

 

Garry

[Horsetan]

Hattons attitude to product support is disappointing to say the least. I'd be tempted to notify them that if they refuse to offer to repair the model then I'd seek redress via the small claims process under the consumer rights act or whatever its called these days and see if that helps. Given the various issues that have been reported there'd be at least a fighting chance of demonstrating that there was an inherent problem with the model.

What do Hattons care? They've flogged the goods, banked the money, and have moved on to their next projects with DJ Models. Interesting that they are not letting DJM assist with spares. That's a cause for concern if anything goes "pop" in future.

[amdaley]

What do Hattons care? They've flogged the goods, banked the money, and have moved on to their next projects with DJ Models. Interesting that they are not letting DJM assist with spares. That's a cause for concern if anything goes "pop" in future.

 

If that is Hattons attitude then they may be proved quite wrong in the future.

Of course I can only put myself forward as an example.

 

When Hattons announced the LMS twins I bought two straight away, no questions asked.

 

When they announced the Garratt I bought one straight away, no questions asked even though I had to wait three years for it to arrive. It lasted a few minutes on my layout & I was sadly disappointed. When I saw Hattons attitude to the problems I was also sadly disappointed.

 

The result of this is that in future when Hattons make an announcement I will not be buying straight away until I see that all is well.

 

Now as I said I can only speak for myself but what if I'm not the only one who thinks like this ?

Where will that leave Hattons ?

They will have to produce a commission not knowing if they will sell in the numbers they expect because people have not pre ordered.

It's very easy to lose a customers trust & when that goes it's almost impossible to get it back.

 

Hattons have two preowned Garratts on their site at the moment.

One at £300 with a missing step has been there for ages & the other at £220 says the lights don't work.

This just amazes me that they couldn't be bothered to do a few simple repairs to locos they commissioned themselves.

Its almost like they don't care ?

 

All this & I haven't even mentioned the Heljan Tango 2-8-0 which seems to be another perfect storm brewing.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Tony

 

Hattons have two preowned Garratts on their site at the moment.

One at £300 with a missing step has been there for ages & the other at £220 says the lights don't work.

This just amazes me that they couldn't be bothered to do a few simple repairs to locos they commissioned themselves.

Its almost like they don't care ?

 

I forgot to say to you 2 days ago Hattons e-mailed me asking if I was interested in either of these.  They said it was because I had expressed an interest, well yes I did, but, that was about 1 year before I placed my order which was about 2 years before delivery so why now?  Maybe it is because they cannot sell them and they have not checked their recent records to see I wrote to them about the motors and sent the photos.

 

As you say why do they not do the repair?  I suspect they know there is a bigger issue, just look at why one of my lights did not work, the wire had shorted out to the body.  I think they are trying to just get rid but not at all costs as they are now dearer from them second hand than when new.

 

I did mention the Tango a while ago and now that is now starting to hic-cup, although, it seems to have a good motor (so far).  People said at the time "This will be fine and there wont be any issues as Heljan will have realised their mistake and wont do that again" mmmm flimsy valve gear seems to be similar to me for starters!

 

Garry

[Ian Hargrave]

Hattons financial position both in terms of financial assets and by virtue of the fact that they are market leaders would cushion them from any attempted boycott.

 

Sorry to hear of the BG troubles but to turn one's back on what they have achieved and what they are commissioning is,I think both unnecessary and undesirable.We would effectively shoot ourselves through our collective feet.This is is no way to condone their lamentable debacle over this particular model....far from it....they have not exactly covered themselves in glory as we all accept.

 

It is also unfair to label other Heljan models in the same way.The O2 has had a chequered beginning but nowhere near approaching the difficulties experienced with the BG. It looks the part and performs beautifully.This from one who was initially extremely sceptical.

 

Like them or not,we need Hattons too.