backofanenvelope Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14539790 Take a look at 01:18 mins... wonder how and why!? Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Old footage? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted August 16, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2011 I see the old clip of the guy with the bunch of flowers getting crushed in the closing doors of a Chiltern Railways Turbo unit gets yet another airing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 When Spinterization came in in 1986 and 2-car Units replaced 8-coach loco hauled trains, overcrowding started. Joe Goebells would have been proud of the propeganda that more people were travelling because the Sprinters were so darned popular. Privatisation circa 1994 would, we were told, solve all the problems as it would attract investment. Much the same propeganda had preceded the privatisation of water, gas, electricity, telephones etc etc etc. But as anyone with half a braincell will know, once the spivs have people by the boll*cks, you can run affairs as you like and charge what you like. 17 years on and we are still being fed the old old story about pricing for future investment and so on. Forget it. People have shown they will put up with overcrowded trains and fare hikes so they'll continue untll folk wake up to the realization that they will soon be poorer than their great grandparents were. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Thumper Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 funny you should mention overcrowding on Multiple units.... I had a thought.... remember that NSE documentary from 1993 on the beeb? slow dirty and late or something... anyway, they had increased trains to 8 carriages I think, cause of 'overcrowding' yet what the commuters were doing were all bunching into the first two carriages...... WHY??? sometimes this has a part to play too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Thumper Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-14539790 Take a look at 01:18 mins... wonder how and why!? Tom thinking about it.... could it be old fottage from the last days of the Oxsted units???? or the more recent withdrawals of the old three rail gear? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Greatest investment for years ?? Not imuch investment.heading this way. More cast offs heading to Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield etc Local papers going on about the extra carriages Northern are getting without mentioning how old they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I have no problem with inflation increases - all forms of transport costs has gone up. I also agree that the commuters who use the service should pay proportionately more that those who do not use it. But I do wonder what the commuter is actually getting... overcrowded, uncomfortable and dirty. projects that are not really wanted by the public and users. track/signalling/system upgrades that seem long over-due. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2011 Of course it's always worth remembering that commuters also get heavily discounted fares (not that it might seem that way when they pay for them of course). My lad has a Weekly Season which costs about £65 and as he uses it 6 days week (and sometimes 7, depending on where he's going to a football match) it costs him approximately £10.50 per day. On Sundays there is no train to get him there for his 06.00 so at the moment I drive him to work and it costs me about the same as that in diesel - i.e train travel costs about the same as the 'immediately realised' direct cost of motoring and you don't have to concentrate on avoiding the halfwits who seem to think the M4 only has a middle lane - even when there is no other traffic in sight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 </p>about the same as the 'immediately realised' direct cost of motoring glad you made that point - as motoring costs depreciation/taxes/insurances/maintenance.. I find well exceed the basic cost of fuel and are so often forgotten by those extolling 'public transport' I'm not saying that rail travel is cheap, I don't think it should be, but it remains very heavily subsidised despite what the "passenger lobby groups" would have everyone believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted August 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2011 I notice the increses are RPI + ... percent whilst at the same time the govt is fobbing us off with CPI for our pensions....... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 I see that the politicians talking about more investment which usually equates to quoting the same order for additional coaches with a figure of @1200 repeatedly mentioned. Then they start BR bashing and how bad the railways were then but they ran with a third of the subsidy that the railway now receives. In those BR days trains were run as service not fat cat support enterprise! If privatisation is so successful why the cap & collar deals in place for likes of SWT which results in the tax payer effectively subsiding the private rail companies? Then we have first not taking the franchise extension for FGW because of the disruption and risk with the electrification and Crossrail schemes. I can see GW franchise being run by the state for 3 years and then first bidding and winning the contract to run the services again after . IMO the privatisation of Britain’s railways is on par with damage that Beeching and Marples inflicted on British Rail. We are now putting back a lot of the infrastructure that was ripped up with such haste in the 1960’s and this is another reason for the need for all this “investment”. I actually now loathe travelling by train as we have poorly designed passenger coaches which expensive to travel on, are over-crowded with station barriers manned by aggressive and rude ticket gate staff at many locations. Xerces Fobe 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 </p>Then they start BR bashing and how bad the railways were then but they ran with a third of the subsidy that the railway now receives. In those BR days trains were run as service </p>But BR days were a long time ago when you could buy a 3 bed new house for £10K - and were paid probably £7K a year as a driver? Inflation has take its toll on everything and I still believe travel by train is relatively "cheap" by comparison to (less)unsubsidised modes. </p> I also remember travel in the BR days or often the lack of it with trains slow and even more dirty, with unreliability due to break downs, system failures or strike action. Sometimes I think folk have the same rosy nostalgia for BR Blue as others have for pre-grouping. </p> Until the profits are truly dependent on the customer will the customer have a true private system. Until then we have the half nationalised mess that we have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted August 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2011 I remember (only too well) travelling between Manchester and Grantham/Nottingham in the late 60s early 70s as a student. No railcards those days! On a student grant of £360 I seem to remember a weekend trip to home and back being around £2.50 - £3. I also have travelled on just about every route possible between the places, often on freight lines. We sometimes left on time in the early afternoon but the arrival time was frequently hours late - often after the last bus. I don't really want those days back. I find that at present many rail journeys actually cost me less than the petrol for the same trip. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 In the interests of accuracy, can I please point out that these are English fare rises, and don't apply to journeys undertaken entirely in Wales? If we cross the border we'll have to cough up the difference, but our own Government is still negotiating next year's changes. Can anyone tell us what the situation is in Scotland - I presume it's much the same as with us? I must admit to getting rather narked by all these news stories about 'Britain' which are really only about England! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 17, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 17, 2011 In the interests of accuracy, can I please point out that these are English fare rises, and don't apply to journeys undertaken entirely in Wales? If we cross the border we'll have to cough up the difference, but our own Government is still negotiating next year's changes. Can anyone tell us what the situation is in Scotland - I presume it's much the same as with us? I must admit to getting rather narked by all these news stories about 'Britain' which are really only about England! The Scotish government has said it is sticking with the RPI + 1% for domestic Scotrail services. Those opperators who cross the border into England fall under the national rules of 3% +RPI. The Welsh assembly have yet to decide their policy although cross border opperators will be in the same situation as those opperating into Scotland. The obvious complication is that an awfull lot of Welsh rail services start, finish or travel through England (Unlike Scotland where apart from the sleeper routes, the only Scotrail service to cross the border are Dumfries - Carlisle services) meaning that in theory at least some of the fares will end up increasing by 3% regardless of what the Welsh decide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chameleon Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I see she made a big point of the "Real Terms Rise" of only 3% as the other 5% is due to inflation. Try telling that to all the poor sods who didn't get a payrise or got a freeze or even a cut! Real Terms to them is still 8-13%! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The Scotish government has said it is sticking with the RPI + 1% for domestic Scotrail services. Those opperators who cross the border into England fall under the national rules of 3% +RPI. The Welsh assembly have yet to decide their policy although cross border opperators will be in the same situation as those opperating into Scotland. The obvious complication is that an awfull lot of Welsh rail services start, finish or travel through England (Unlike Scotland where apart from the sleeper routes, the only Scotrail service to cross the border are Dumfries - Carlisle services) meaning that in theory at least some of the fares will end up increasing by 3% regardless of what the Welsh decide. Not quite so, according to the BBC (though they could certainly be wrong!); their report states that it's only journeys that cross the border that will have the higher rate, not operators. So while some journeys will indeed as you say have the 3% additionality, it won't be all by any means. What it actually does come down to, we'll have to wait and see... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Greatest investment for years ?? Not imuch investment.heading this way. More cast offs heading to Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield etc Local papers going on about the extra carriages Northern are getting without mentioning how old they are. They are still extra carriages, and it'll still cost more to have more capacity, so, yes, it is investment. And the vast majority of trains running in the North at the moment are types built new to do exactly what they are doing, they may have moved around a bit but 'The North always has everybody's cast-off trains' meme is a long way from the truth! The North has had entire classes of brand new DMU and EMU allocated to it since privatisation for example. Add in electrification, capacity addition schemes and there seems to be plenty being spent in the North... 'Investment' doesn't just mean 'shiny new trains'. I can see GW franchise being run by the state for 3 years and then first bidding and winning the contract to run the services again after. I can't - I would expect it would be let again fairly quickly as they will need to have somebody in place as part of the decision-making process for the new trains - so First may rebid and may win, but I don't think it will end up government controlled. IMO the privatisation of Britain’s railways is on par with damage that Beeching and Marples inflicted on British Rail. So you're saying it's bad....? We are now putting back a lot of the infrastructure that was ripped up with such haste in the 1960’s and this is another reason for the need for all this “investment”. ...and the reason that it's bad is that good things are happenning? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 </p>Try telling that to all the poor sods who didn't get a payrise or got a freeze or even a cut! Real Terms to them is still 8-13%!</p> </p> Some in the real world have undergone far worse than that - two consecutive years of 10% cuts followed by a freeze. It is about time that we are 'all in it together' curbing the excesses of the public (paid for by the tax-payer) sector is overdue. While I have some sympathy for those receiving pay cuts and pay freezes - I have already been there and have the scars, I perhaps have a little more sympathy for those actually losing their job (though not if they are refusing a pay cut) and that is increased as paying for their unemployment benefits comes out of my shrinking tax payments - which is a downward cycle. I don't mind paying taxes for public services but I don't agree with paying more taxes just so the public services can be expanded and its employees can buck the trend in salaries. Probably far too political, but still important regarding the subsidies to the rail industry. I am happy to have the government use my taxes to fund the big national network changes (HS2 etc) not that I agree with that project - I see it as separate. But I do not think my taxes should be subsidising the rolling stock or salaries. That should be funded from the rail fares paid by the customers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raffles Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 On the subject of franchise renewals, I believe the timetable for the upcoming franchises had been recast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 17, 2011 </p> I am happy to have the government use my taxes to fund the big national network changes (HS2 etc) not that I agree with that project - I see it as separate. But I do not think my taxes should be subsidising the rolling stock or salaries. That should be funded from the rail fares paid by the customers. I don't think there need be any reason for subsidy of rilling stock with the possible exception of routes deemed 'socially necessary' (whatever that might mean as it's usually all thing to all politicos. But what is wrong is that the present system of short term franchises creates uncertainty for rolling stock owners PLUS increasing interference from DafT which distorts proper market rates for vehicle leases and massively inflates them; that requires urgent and serious review and a revised regime. Subsidising salaries is rather different when those salaries form part of the essential operating costs, particularly for 'socially necessary' services but what should not be happening is public subsidy of franchisee profits or of their bid teams. Alas a lot of it went desperately wrong in the original Treasury financial model and then got even worse after the politicos didn't just move the goalposts but created a different shape pitch in another field. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 ......remember that NSE documentary from 1993 on the beeb? slow dirty and late or something... anyway, they had increased trains to 8 carriages I think, cause of 'overcrowding' yet what the commuters were doing were all bunching into the first two carriages...... WHY???.... 'cos they all wanted to be nearest to the exit at the destination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I see she made a big point of the "Real Terms Rise" of only 3% as the other 5% is due to inflation. Try telling that to all the poor sods who didn't get a payrise or got a freeze or even a cut! Real Terms to them is still 8-13%! I think this is the real issue here. The timing of these fare rises couldn't be worst for many of those who depend on rail to get to work. On the other hand, there's a lot been made of how some season ticket prices are far too low in the first place. IIRC, one of many examples cited in Rail, had the averaged price of one journey on a season ticket at something like £2.80 return, compared with a normal off-peak at something like £6 plus, i.e. less than half price. If that's the case then such anomalies need to be addressed and season ticket holders should be paying more realistic fares. Whether they can afford to, is another issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Interestingly McNulty envisages commuters paying less and other travellers paying more... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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