Altering volume of individual sounds

[Jim]

Hi,

I've been running a friends Jimty with Howes sound and although i'm a diesel man i've quite become attached to it, so much so , I might get one for myself!

 

The only critisism I have with the sound is the "coasting rod clank". it seems very loud compared to the other running sounds.

I don't mind getting stuck-in with altering CVs as im always messing around with them on the diesels and now getting the Jinty syncronised with the chuffs, which was interseting to say the least!

 

I was wondering however, is there a way of reducing the volume of the "coasting clank" without affecting the other sounds?

 

Many thanks,

Jim

[Nigelcliffe]

Assumption that we're talking ESU LokSounds - very likely being a Howes decoder.

 

Version 3.5 decoder (will be old stock if being shipped now), CV63 is the main volume, and CV's 121,122,123 are secondary volumes. But I don't think you have direct access to alter an individual sound.

 

Version 4.0 (current release) decoders offer a lot more potential, so if its a version 4.0, I think all the sound slots are accessible, though its a little hit and miss until you find which slot contains the clank noises.

 

- Nigel

[Jim]

Thanks for that,

Yes, it is a Howes decoder, it was actualy fitted by Trains on Time.

I went and put the engine on the test track after reading your reply but all three CVs read 0

 

Jim

[cassey jones]

I know that the Howes diesel sounds on CV121 and 122 cannot be altered [V3.5] - I could not do it so I asked Bryan many moons ago.

SWD and Bachmann sound chips you can alter CV121 and 122[V3.5], so I am guessing that it has to be set up at the programming stage.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

This individual volume adjustment was introduced at the same time that the sound files became unalterable with Loksound Extractor.

 

There are three volume settings and the project software allows you to allocate each sound to a particular volume setting which is then linked to all the others on that setting.

 

Volumes of individual sounds are best adjusted by the project compiler and this may already have been done.

 

If this is an early project and/or a V3.5 project loaded onto a V4 then it is more difficult to adjust anything

[Jim]

All interesting stuff!

Does anyone think the day will come when programming is standardised? Then we could buy and download complete sound projects and load them onto the decoder at home.

Jim

[Oldddudders]

Does anyone think the day will come when programming is standardised? Then we could buy and download complete sound projects and load them onto the decoder at home.

I'm afraid Loksound continue to take the p**s out of the European sound market, due to their dominant position. Given the high retail cost of a basic, factory-loaded Loksound decoder, even in Germany, the Howes's, SWDs and others providing the sounds you want are making very little money on their time and investment - it all goes back to ESU.

 

The US market couldn't be more different, and ESU have notably failed to make the expected impact there. I have before me the Soundtraxx manual for their now-discontinued Low Cost decoders. This document must be at least 6 years old, and the decoders it covers were about half the price of Loksound in the US, yet there are user-variable volume settings for bell, horn/whistle, airpump, dynamic brake, and exhaust, as well as variable settings for bell ring rate, steam exhaust chuff/diesel exhaust rate (the latter offering manual or automatic notching), airpump for conventional or articulated locos - and most of those variables have 256 possible values, so fine tuning is easy to suit your loco and your ears. And no, you don't need a programmer beyond that provided in the better sort of DCC system, and of course the sounds can be adjusted in running.

 

I noted these cheap decoders are now discontinued - but the Tsunami range which Soundtraxx now offers does all this and much, much more - yet still costs 30% less than Loksound at street prices. Soundtraxx's leading rival QSI is similarly priced and featured, although offering additional features including downloadable upgrades, albeit through a downloader which costs half that of the pricey Lokprogramer. Some of my QSI-equipped locos are now on their third or fourth upgraded set of sounds, free.

 

European modellers continue to be ripped off and fobbed off IMHO.

[kevpeo]

All interesting stuff!

Does anyone think the day will come when programming is standardised? Then we could buy and download complete sound projects and load them onto the decoder at home.

Jim

 

IMHO, not a chance!!!! How would the company protect its investment. Just look at mp3 downloads, once you have the track downloaded can you stick it on your mp3 player, your computer, your laptop, your phone and your car stereo hard drive! You certainly can with your cd collection, all not technically legal, yet! But the powers that be say, for your own use, its ok. Unless ESU, Zimo, etc and the after-market programmers can put some kind of code in to stop it being used more than once it would never work. Shame though, kev.

[Nigelcliffe]

IMHO, not a chance!!!! How would the company protect its investment. Just look at mp3 downloads, once you have the track downloaded can you stick it on your mp3 player, your computer, your laptop, your phone and your car stereo hard drive! You certainly can with your cd collection, all not technically legal, yet! But the powers that be say, for your own use, its ok. Unless ESU, Zimo, etc and the after-market programmers can put some kind of code in to stop it being used more than once it would never work. Shame though, kev.

 

Zimo have this feature already - every decoder has a unique serial number, and Zimo can generate a key to unlock a sound project against that decoder. You download the sound from the website, put the file on a memory stick, plug stick into side of Zimo controller and its squirted into the loco. Or, do similarly with the PC interface box. Zimo have announced a stand-alone update device which will take a USB memory stick for these sorts of downloads.

 

Lots of EU sounds available this way on the Zimo website.

 

The UK sound producers for Zimo haven't yet exploited the mechanism offered.

 

 

- Nigel

[F-UnitMad]

The US market couldn't be more different, and ESU have notably failed to make the expected impact there. I have before me the Soundtraxx manual for their now-discontinued Low Cost decoders. ...there are user-variable volume settings for bell, horn/whistle, ...(etc etc).......

European modellers continue to be ripped off and fobbed off IMHO.

To get into DCC Sound I've been using Digitrax's cheap sound decoders; the SDN144PS to be precise; various features can be individually controlled for volume and so on with that decoder, too.

I also saved money by buying direct from the USA. UK suppliers of DCC had been listing that decoder as "Out of Stock" for a while.

[pauliebanger]

 

 

The UK sound producers for Zimo haven't yet exploited the mechanism offered.

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

What Nigel say is correct.

 

However, that's by design not neglect. UK sounds are available from selected dealers already loaded on decoders.

 

The coded projects may not be as secure as thought.

 

It's quite clear from posts on various forums that there are simply too many people happy to steal your work and think it's OK to do so. Even more galling, with no acknowledgement of the considerable time and cost of making the recordings and constructing the sound projects.

 

I'm happy to re-blow decoders with my sounds, but apart from the projects I give away from time to time in Hornby Magazine, I do not intend to make it any easier for theives to profit from my work. I don't blame ESU for taking the same attitude.

 

Most of the other brands mentioned above take a different line - you can only load what they provide in an encrypted format. Pity they do not offer UK sounds, though, Tsunami do sound good. Mind you, with such a huge market in the US, the cost of providing 'free' sounds is spread very thinly per decoder sold.

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

Sorry about the mini rant.

 

I really meant to point out that selection of, and changing the volumes of individual sounds is possible for any user with Zimo decoders by using just a DCC controller.

 

ESU LokV4 is reported to offer the same facility.

 

Paul

[John YouChoos]

It certainly takes a fair bit of effort to compile a decent sound-project, regardless of decoder, and producers of such sounds (including myself at YouChoos) do need to protect our investment in time and intellectual property.

Many of the 'big boys' in this market produce a specific sound-project, created in a way that they believe is correct and accurate, and will please the majority of consumers, which is fine, and understandable. The problem with DCC sound is that much is in the ear of the beholder, and everyone has a differing opinion of what sounds rights or wrong, including what auxillary sound effects are available.

YouChoos offers a totally bespoke configuration using CT (and soon Zimo) decoders where the customer gets to choose precisely how they want the sound to appear, and which effects they want. Where possible, a free re-blow is provided in order to tune the sounds when they are not 100% what is wanted.

 

The Zimo 'lock code' appears to be useful, although I have yet to figure out if it make commercial sense. I believe that DigiTrains already use the feature for a number of their diesel sound projects.

 

John

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

ESU took great pains to make the sounds in Loksound decoders non extractable with version 2.7.7 of Lokprogrammer. Before that it was quite possible to extract the sounds from the project ( not the decoder ) and then use them elsewhere. It was only a matter of time before it would have been possible to extract the sounds themselves.

 

I am not sure whether the encryption works or whether it is effective.

 

The Tsunami is all US sounds and has the same problem in that all the decoders sound much the same. Also there is no facility to load UK diesel sounds.

 

It is this need to have the UK diesel sound set right that has polarised the market, not ESU.

 

Up until Pauliebanger mastered the art of diesel sounds in the Zimo chip there was no competition to ESU. If you stick to steam the market is much bigger and, as long as the bells are ( and can be ) silenced, most chips give acceptable results and usually up to the price paid.

 

The price of sound chips means that the retailer makes a good profit as long as they don't discount.

 

The latest version of the Loksound will need to be very good indeed to achieve the level of sound project that the V 3.5 reached. It has taken quite a few years of effort and several changes in firmware and software to get this far and because of the need for the UK diesel market ( which in real terms is relatively small ) ESU have become market leaders.

 

It is this seemingly unique ability to service from home grown to manufacturer's factory fitted sound and the ability to re-blow as each project is improved that has made ESU the market leader. That and the lack of any opposition at all for several years in the diesel sounds market.

[John YouChoos]

True that ESU have had a monopoly for a few years, simply because of accessibility, and the fact that the big manufacturers chose to use LokSound in factory-fit locos.

That doesn't mean that ESU have been ahead... CT's Revision 4 (SL75 and SL51-4) decoders were as good, if not better than LokSound 3.5 in many respects, although each decoder has its own strengths and weaknesses - the implementations are different, so you just have to judge it based on the finished sound-project.

The reality is that there are now a number of decoders that will do a great job, as long as you program them correctly, and have a good base of sound recordings in the first place.

 

All capable of very good sounds in steam and diesel are: ESU LokSound, CT SL75 and SL51-4, Zimo MX64* series, and, perhaps I should include them, DigiTrax's 2010 offerings (although they are nowhere near as capable as the other 3). As far as I'm aware, there really isn't anything else that touches these 3 manufacturers for features and potential to create very effective results.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Hi,

I've been running a friends Jimty with Howes sound and although i'm a diesel man i've quite become attached to it, so much so , I might get one for myself!

 

The only critisism I have with the sound is the "coasting rod clank". it seems very loud compared to the other running sounds.

I don't mind getting stuck-in with altering CVs as im always messing around with them on the diesels and now getting the Jinty syncronised with the chuffs, which was interseting to say the least!

 

I was wondering however, is there a way of reducing the volume of the "coasting clank" without affecting the other sounds?

 

Many thanks,

Jim

 

Jim,

 

A quick check of the latest V4 manual suggests that each sound slot that is essentially either random or individually selected by function button, has its own individual volume CV.

 

Somehow I doubt that this would apply to a V3.5 project loaded into a V4 decoder but it could do. The trouble is that we all lack the knowledge at the moment and are reluctant to waste any time on the older V3.5 projects as we wrestle with the V4 which is completely different in structure.

 

If you have a V4 decoder then you can always have it reblown with an updated project and then all the volume CV's will work.

 

Patience is the key!

[Jim]

Yes, patience indeed! These are early days in Dcc as a whole. Can you imagine what we'll have in five or so years? Decoders and controllers that simulate fuel/coal/water quantities and boiler water levels needing to use injectors! Running out of steam and grinding to an embarrassing holt!

Jim

[legomanbiffo]

Hi,

I've been running a friends Jimty with Howes sound and although i'm a diesel man i've quite become attached to it, so much so , I might get one for myself!

 

The only critisism I have with the sound is the "coasting rod clank". it seems very loud compared to the other running sounds.

I don't mind getting stuck-in with altering CVs as im always messing around with them on the diesels and now getting the Jinty syncronised with the chuffs, which was interseting to say the least!

 

I was wondering however, is there a way of reducing the volume of the "coasting clank" without affecting the other sounds?

 

Many thanks,

Jim

 

Jim,

 

Is the rod clank you're referring to on a function key, or an automatic part of the program? If it's on a function key and the decoder is a v4 you should, in theory, be able to alter its volume individually. In that case, let us know which function key it's on and I'll try and work out which CV it is.

 

Bif

[Jim]

Bif,

The clanking is part of the over-run/coasting recording not a separate function. Ive been looking at YouTube clips of jinties especially when they're coasting and can't really hear that hollow sounding clanking. Do jinties sound like this in reality or is that a "generic" sound?

Again I'm not too experienced with steam.

Jim

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Rod clank is very rare on an 0-6-0 tank and is the sign of either poor driving or worn bearings in connecting rods or driving cranks in locos that have external valve gear. I wouldn't have thought that a Jinty would go fast enough or have enough reciprocating weight to cause much more than light ringing rather than the heavy thudding clank that big Walschearts valve gear can produce.

[pauliebanger]

Rod clank is very rare on an 0-6-0 tank and is the sign of either poor driving or worn bearings in connecting rods or driving cranks in locos that have external valve gear. I wouldn't have thought that a Jinty would go fast enough or have enough reciprocating weight to cause much more than light ringing rather than the heavy thudding clank that big Walschearts valve gear can produce.

 

I agree with David. Clanking rods are atypical, probably a sound added 'out of the generic parts bin'.

 

I have some recent recordings from a Jinty footplate, as It happens, and there is very little rod clank on that one.

 

This raises and interesting question that arises from time to time in discussions about how a project should sound. I'll start a new thread on this as the subject is a bit wider than Jinty Rod Clank.

 

Paul

[Jim]

Thanks! Interesting times!

Jim

 

[pauliebanger]

Jim,

 

Just to elaborate on your original question,it seems for other expert views above, unlikely that you will be able to vary the volume of your drifting (coasting clank) sounds if it's an ESU decoder and is part of the driving scheme.

 

If the decoder is a Zimo, however, you have much more control over what you hear. It has always been possible to vary the volume (even to nil if you like) of any installed sound, whether driving or auxilliary, completely independant from the settings of other sounds.

 

Reducing/increasing the drifting sound volume can be done whilst the loco is in motion so it's that much easier to judge the correct value. (CV#286, value range 0-255, where 0 is silent and 255 is maximum volume).

 

I've got the recordings already, so I suppose I'll have to get a Zimo version of a Jinty done asap. There are other 'tricks' possible with Zimo steam too:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XORDV_K0gmI

 

And here's the text that accompanies the clip on YouTube:

 

This video demonstrates a unique feature of Zimo DCC sound decoders. You can find out how to achieve this yourself by reading my tutorial here: http://www.hornbymagazine.com/?p=1084

During the video you will hear the sounds change but still remain at the same relative speeds. So, it's possible to change from a 'Light' to 'Heavy' working sound instantly, whilst the loco is in motion. This could allow the driver to simulate, say a hill climb, followed by flatter running. Or, of course, gently running 'light engine' to a rake of waggons/coaches and struggling away with'heavy' sounds. There is a section of coasting with rod clank, but this is automatically produced as part of the sound project.

 

 

 

Paul

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Jim,

 

Just to elaborate on your original question,it seems for other expert views above, unlikely that you will be able to vary the volume of your drifting (coasting clank) sounds if it's an ESU decoder and is part of the driving scheme.

 

 

Not true. The later versions of projects for the ESU 3.5 decoder have individual volume controls. It is usually adjusted by the project builder and is a matter of moments to change with a Lokprogrammer but does require the original project as well.

 

I have no doubt that it is equally adjustable by the use of CV's but these are not readily available from ESU in any of the manuals.

 

This was introduced on one of the software revisions post 2.7.7. Prior to that one could link the volume of accessory sounds to one of three individual volume controls. Early chips, long before Zimo entered the sound market, there was only one volume control. Back then compilers would test each individual sound and match volumes in a sound editing programme first. A lot of midnight oil was burnt.

 

The ESU V4 also has the ability to switch projects within a decoder.

[pauliebanger]

dwhite4dcc, on 09 September 2011 - 18:48 , said:

 

 

Not true. The later versions of projects for the ESU 3.5 decoder have individual volume controls. It is usually adjusted by the project builder and is a matter of moments to change with a Lokprogrammer but does require the original project as well.

 

I have no doubt that it is equally adjustable by the use of CV's but these are not readily available from ESU in any of the manuals.

 

This was introduced on one of the software revisions post 2.7.7. Prior to that one could link the volume of accessory sounds to one of three individual volume controls. Early chips, long before Zimo entered the sound market, there was only one volume control. Back then compilers would test each individual sound and match volumes in a sound editing programme first. A lot of midnight oil was burnt.

 

The ESU V4 also has the ability to switch projects within a decoder.

 

 

David,

 

I don't mind you correcting me when I am wrong. I assume the same forebearance from you.

 

You are wrong.

 

What I said is correct.

 

1) I quoted other experts' views expressed in this thread. That was their mutually agreed position, I merely reported it.

and

2) I said that Jim would not be able to vary the sound. Yes. it can easily be done with a lokprogrammer, but not by Jim (unless he has a programmer and knows how to use it, and has the original files - very unlikely)

 

With Zimo, on the other hand, anyone who is running a DCC layout, already has all the hardware needed to be able to change the sound assignments and volumes of each individual sound independantly. And there are comprehensive instructions in a well written manual on how to do it.

 

If I am still wrong in your view, perhaps you will explain to Jim and the rest of us, how he can change the volume as he desires without sending it off for a re-blow.

 

I could easily explain how anyone can to do it with a Zimo decoder, irrespective of how the original author programmed it. You don't need access to the author's 'secret files' either.

 

I don't think you really appreciate how advanced Zimo decoders are compared to Lok V3.5

 

ESU made a big play that you would now be able to change individual sounds with Lok V4. That says to me quite clearly that ESU recognise it was not possible with their earlier versions.

 

Having accepted that ESU claim it is possible to vary the sound characteristics with LokV4, I have not yet read anywhere, or heard from anyone, how it can be done. Have you?

 

Paul