Which Point motors should i go for?

[Earl Bathurst]

Hi

Im in the process of laying my track on my new layout (00). I have an ESU ECoS controller but i am not sure what point motors to go for, i was thinking about peco but they are ok but a bit violent changing the points then someone mentioned tortoise motors did a bit of research and seen some info on cobalt motors. I am now very confused which to go for? Im looking to use dcc to operate points but which is the better way of doing it. If anyone can help i will be most grateful because im stumped as to which would be better?

Thanks

Scott

[buffalo]

Tortoise have been around for a long time and have a rock solid reputation. Cobalt are a similar but smaller design and so need much less room under the baseboard, but are quite new and have yet to be proved in the long term. Early impressions are favourable, however. Both of these will need separate decoders and there is a wide choice. I have used Lenz LS150 with no problems, but others have different views and preferences. Another possibility is the TT300. This has the benefit of being smaller than either of the others and has a builtin decoder. However, some of us have experienced problems with one or two of these, see some of the posts in this thread. Then there are several other types that I know little or nothing about.

 

Try a google site search, you'll find plenty of threads about point motors, and may even be tempted to go down the DIY servo approach.

 

Nick

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If you are up for some DIY, then the motor by Fulgurex has much to recommend it. The double ended configuration enables it to drive a pair of points arranged as a crossover, which always work together. The cost is thus roughly the same as a pair of basic solenoids, but you get slow motion. This comes at the price of some DIY to make the push rods that extend the drive shaft, and the cranks that move the points.

[brossard]

I would NOT recommend PECO motors. If you must go solenoid, the SEEP (with the aux switch) are a better bet. The switch can be used to change frog polarity. The drawback is in getting the motor aligned so that the switch makes in both directions.

 

I have used Tortoise a great deal and they are robust and reliable. Replace the 0.020" wire supplied with 0.032". The big disadvantage with Tortoise is the requirement to solder. For my first layout I soldered wires direct to the tag strips at the base of the motor. However, over time, these had a tendency to short together (usually 5 minutes before the show opened) and finding the offending wire was difficult. Edge connectors are available but even with these care must be taken in soldering and fitting.

 

Cobalts, as mentioned above, are similar to Tortoise but seem to address the issues I raised. The motors come with pre-bent 0.032" wire. They also have clip type wire connectors (similar I suppose to speaker connections) so no soldering (woo hoo!). These seem to be as close to perfection as they come. However, they are not proven.

 

Both motors come with 2 aux switches. One can be used for frog polarity - I've never used the other one, but it might come in useful for signalling.

 

We used SEEP on the main part of our club layout and alignment was and still is an issue. We are building a branch line and that will be code 75, hand built points and Tortoise/Cobalt.

 

On the issue of frog polarity, I believe it to be most important that the frog be live (so electrofrog points). (Nothing worse than trying to shunt at low speed only to have the loco stall on the point.) Newer PECO code 75 (and maybe code 100, I don't use them) electrofrog have the frog and closure rails cut with continuity provided by soldered jumpers under the point. For DCC, it is recommended that the frog be isolated by removing these soldered jumpers. The closure and stock rails should then be electrically bonded to one another. The frog is wired to the aux switch. I have heard of people who don't bother to do this and they claim to be able to get away with it. However, for electrofrog points, there is a risk of short if the backs of the wheels contact the open blade. I suspect this could be an issue for the clunkier wheels of the past.

 

John

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

To add to the list and confuse you even more there is the Tillig motor which does a lot more than most and has no less than eight wires hanging out of it.

 

Upsides are the small size and the ability to cascade routes or have permanent crossover switching from one switch using DC switching plus the switches used allow for the switch toggle to point the way the point is facing, useful when negotiating routes.

 

Downsides are the noise and the lack of DCC friendship because of the 16volt AC supply needed to work these motors.

 

The Tortoise is bombproof and reliable but huge, both the Cobalt and the TT300 have had teething problems and that is now under control but both suppliers will stand by their product. The Traintronics one has a built in decoder so is really useful if you are planning a number of points with DCC control.

 

All point motors need care with install and particularly with stall current motors like Cobalt, Tortoise and TT300 as if the operating mechanism hits something other than the point blade to stock rail, it will stall short of the point change and derail the next passing loco.

I think this is another plus for the Tillig which is designed with adjustable throw and sufficient gearing to want to reach it's destination and shift any minor obstructions with the thinner piano wire helping as well.

[brossard]

Tortoise point motors fitted with the 0.020" operating wire have more of a tendency to fail to fully switch over. If the point is stiff or not free running for any reason the wimbly wire will simply bend. Using 0.032" wire will improve the situation but points still need to be free to move. In fact, the Tortoise with 0.032" wire will move a PECO point with O/C spring still fitted. The Tortoise people have a remote actuator accessory, for locations where a Tortoise cannot be directly installed. I have used this successfully.

 

I recently discovered accessory decoders, using Wabbits on my last layout (built for a friend). Marvelous things which obviate the need for a control panel full of switches.

 

Can't speak to the Tillig stuff. To my eye they look, well, too European.

 

John

[Earl Bathurst]

Thanks for the info, was at my local model shop today and the subject came up and seep were recommended. Would it be better to leave the points run the normal method or would it be better to make them dcc., im not bothered which way they are? just so many choices and all have their advantages and disadvantages? Confusing stuff

Scott

[buffalo]

...Would it be better to leave the points run the normal method or would it be better to make them dcc...

Why not take a look at the recent thread entitled DCC for points or not? Or, for that matter, any of the other threads on this topic over the last few years. Personally, I use DCC, but individual preferences come into it as does the ease of operating them from different handsets.

 

Nick

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

I would recommend Cobalt,very reliable small efficient as mentioned the above advantages plus the manufacturer also manufacturers an accessory decoders which can control 2 cobalts (AD1 their is also an AD4) and it can be mounted directly on the cobalt unit reducing the need for extra wiring. It keeps it neat.

 

Another plus even if you dont purchase cobalt download the instructions, the templates are great plus all the hints and tips.

 

See here

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/Cobalt_turnout_motor.htm

 

Yes as Dave likes to point out he is always in the know.... Im sure a couple have failed but with the generous warranty offered its really a no brainier plus you have an ECoS why not go dcc use it to its full potential.

 

It is more expensive no doubt there but better pricing for 6 or 12 packs. Unfortunately due to the currency exchange a very strong Aus $ and weak GBP well its not doing Cobalt any favours. In saying that they are selling like hotcakes.

 

An excellent product highly recommended and in my opinion far better than what the competition offers.

 

Martin

[silverlink]

Hi Scott,

On my DCC exhibition layout 'Haymarket Cross' I have twenty five points which at an exhibition get a lot of use. With this in mind and reading up on point operation I found (at the time) the Circuitron Tortoise had a really good name so I used them. I am really pleased with them they have worked well with the great bonus been the addition of the two built in switches. One of these I use for frog polarity changing whilst I have wired into the point changing wires two bi-directional LED's which do not need any resisters adding making them very easy to wire in. I use DPDT toggle swiches for changing, the LED's change colour when you throw the switch thus giving you easy vision of direction. I am now looking at adding NCE Switch-8 DCC point opertion instead of switches which will allow operation of the points from the handset. They are designed primarlly for Tortoise motors & cost around £40 each for control of eight point motors which I think is good value. Also you don't need extra transformers (like Lenz) to work them, you just wire them into your Bus wire. Hope this is of help

Cheers

silverlink

[brossard]

Well said Silverlink. My exhibition layout "Barnoldswick" had about the same number of points, using Tortoise motors. I wired them to DPDTs on control panels with LEDs. Everything worked well for a couple of years until I started to get shorts (5 minutes before show opening!). This was due to me soldering direct to the tag strips and the frog polarity wires sometimes touching. The very devil to troubleshoot. Edge connectors are available which are an improvement but still need soldering. Cobalts appear to address this serious flaw by simply clipping the wires in place.

 

Barnoldswick is gone now to make way for a future new layout.

 

When I do my next layout, I will re-use the Tortoises but probably get Cobalts as well. Point control will be through Wabbit or similar.

 

John

[Crewlisle]

Once more I will jump in with both feet and say that there is nothing wrong with Peco Code 100 track, Electro Frog points and motors. They are cheap and cheerful but I admit they are not protypical in operation. I have 30 on the layout and none have been modified or fitted with polarity switches, relying on current being supplied only via the toe of the point. The only polarity switch on my layout is on the live diamond. My layout 'Crewlisle' has been on the exhibition circuit for 20 years but the layout itself is 40 years old. Only in the last two years have I had to start to replace the points through old age! I have never had a point motor failure either at home or at an exhibition.

 

I converted my layout to DCC 3 years ago and details of the conversion was featured in Model Rail October and November 2008. I did not change the method of point control because of the expense. My points are controlled by three local panels on the inside of the operating well with schematic track diagrams and probe-and-stud operation.

[flubrush]

.....both the Cobalt and the TT300 have had teething problems and that is now under control but both suppliers will stand by their product.

 

My club got some TT300 motors at the end of last year to install on a small 4mm scale DCC layout and it wasn't a good experience. I wasn't involved in the layout at the time but was aware of the situation. Eventually they gave up on the TT300 and installed Cobalt motors instead, with no problems.

 

Recently I saw the TT300 motors lying on a shelf and thought I might have a look at them to see what might be the problem. They all operated on DC and from my NCE PowerCab on DCC on the workbench with no load, but a couple showed hesitancy when operating under no load. I then started applying a load to the motors and found that the torque available was quite low. (There was nothing sophisticated about the load applied - just my finger applying some pressure to the operating wire.) The two motors showing hesitancy had virtually no torque at all, halting on the slightest of pressure on their operating wires.

 

I decided to have a closer look inside and opened the rivets of one to look inside. There is a multi stage gear train inside and one end of the intermediate shaft sits in a slot in the PCB between two microswitches. When the operating arm hits the end of its travel the torque reaction on the intermediate shaft moves it across the slot and operates one or other of the microswitches to change point crossing polarity. But I had a close look at the PCB board traces and it looks as though these switches are also used to reduce the stall current through the motor when they operate.

 

I then tried operating the motors again and applying a bit of back pressure to the end of the shaft (which protrudes through the PCB) to avoid operation of the microswitches and the available torque then became very good.

 

So it looks as though the operation of the motor is quite dependant on the sensitivity of the microswitches and the samples I had needed microswitches with stronger operating springs to work successfully. Perhaps this is what they might have done to improve matters.

 

Jim.

[Ravenser]

I've dabbled with various types of point motor in recent years so this may be a help:

 

Earl Bathurst (OP)

i was thinking about peco but they are ok but a bit violent changing the points

 

And that's one of the key arguments against solenoid motors like Peco, SEEP and Hornby. The design means that they move with an almighty whack. Or if there isn't enough grunt, they don't move... The other problem is that the coils heat with the current flow, thus losing efficiency and resulting in less power. Resulting in points that won't throw. And if you leave them energised they burn out. The modern answer to all this is the Capacitor Discharge Unit, which builds up a modest trickle charge in a capacitor and discharges a very brief burst of high current

 

Solenoid motors aren't great for handbuilt points , because they are so rough, but they are fine for ready made proprietary track, and they are cheap - about £4-50 to £6 a go . Motor -driven point motors like Tortoises, Cobalt Blues, Fulgarix, Hoffmann/Conrad are much more expensive - Tortoises and Cobalt Blues are currently £14- £18 , but they are much smoother gentler and more refined . And they don't get hot and stop working. They also invariably come with a built in switch which will change the polarity of the frog for live frog points - Tortoises and Cobalt Blues have a pair of switches built in

 

I'm afraid you haven't given us a couple of key pieces of info here - how many points on the layout, and what type of points - Peco or handbuilt , live frog or deadfrog.

 

As a general rule, if you have a lot of points on a layout (someone in another thread mentioned 100 points) economics will force you to solenoid motors because the cost of fitting stall motors throughout is prohibitive . Stall motors like Tortoises and Cobalt Blues are essential on finescale layouts using handbuilt track - but then those layouts are usually small because they are very laborious to build . You aren't going to handbuild 100 points - life's too short. My small layout , Blacklade, has 9 points (handbuilt Marcway) and uses Tortoises , except for the spots where there wasn't enough space to fit them and I used a Cobalt Blue and a Hoffman . I would strongly second Brossard's comments about replacing Tortoise wires with something thicker - on stiff handbuilt Marcway (soldered construction) the wires supplied were not stiff enough to ensure reliable operation, and had to be replaced (I sourced the thicker wire from Eileen's Emporium)

 

I've no direct experience of Fulgarex , but ouer club's 7mm layout used them and they were viewed as unreliable because the contacts were said not to be self cleaning . The Hoffmann motor , available from Finney and Smith , is a bit of an oddball - a motor , but not a stall motor, working off 16V AC like solenoids not 12V DC like stall motors . It's not as reliable as a Tortoise , but there is a cheap version, effectively identical, made by Conrad

 

While I've heard of people using the Lenz LS150 with stall motors , there is a possible issue . The LS150 is a pulse decoder, designed for solenoids , and the maximum programmable length of the pulse is 6 seconds. Stall motors stall at the end of their travel and draw a small current continuously . If you use the LS150 with a stall motor , there is a risk that when the current cuts off , the blades may drift away from the stock rail . They are also now rather expensive (£45 for six outputs - or £7-50 per output) , they don't have a CDU so they are potentially a bit soft when controlling a solenoid , and , as ever with decoders with lots of outputs, if you only have 3 points on that board it's going to be very expensive per point

[Earl Bathurst]

Hi Thanks for all the different info. Cobalt are sounding very tempting. I have used peco code 75 electrofrog points. In total the maximum ill have on the layout is 17 point maybe less aint worked how the fiddle yard yet. What accessory decoder is best to use with these cobalt points and roughly how many points can i run off 1 decoder.

Thanks

Scott

[Godders]

Why don't you try a relatively new method, servo motors. ESU make a Switch Pilot Servo (51802), a four output decoder and also ESU Servo motor kit (1 motor) (51804), a servo motor, which is about £14. Both these are available from DCC Supplies. However, there are many other servos available from about £3.00. Instead of micro switches for frog polarity switching try the frog juicer from Tam Valley Depot http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/products.html

They also make servo decoders $32 for an eight way, read about them on their site, it's worth it just for the information. I don't know if there is a British Supplier.

 

Cheers Godders

[RFS]

I replaced all my Peco points and Lenz LS150s decoders with Tortoises and NCE Switch-8 decoders. The Tortoises cost me just under £12 when bought as a 12-pack. I now have 57 of them and they are absolutely, 100% reliable. I do like the slow action and, above all, the quiet operation. I removed the springs from the plain points to eliminate the loud click as they change (and which also defeats the slow-action) but I've not been able to do that for the slips as the springs are underneath. When I build the next layout etc. etc.

 

The NCE Switch-8s are designed for Tortoises (and presumably will also work Cobalts) and they do that very well. No problem at all changing two points on one decoder address, nor changing multiple addresses simultaneously, something you can't do with LS150s which is why I replaced them. At around £40 each, it works out at £5 per decoder port. At one place I have a number of crossovers and there are 14 Tortoises operated from one Switch-8. I did not consider the Traintronics TT300 decoder as it has the decoder built-in, which is inflexible if you want to operate two turnouts together - you waste a decoder. With Tortoises it requires only one decoder port.

 

The only change I had to make was using thicker wire for the Tortoises - 0.036" which is easily available off Ebay (search on "piano wire").

 

As regards wiring I simply soldered short wires to the solder tabs and connected them to standard 3A terminal blocks (either 5-way or 8-way depending on whether 1 or both switches were in use). This was easily done on the workbench before installation and simplfied wiring up below the baseboards.

[silverlink]

I replaced all my Peco points and Lenz LS150s decoders with Tortoises and NCE Switch-8 decoders. The Tortoises cost me just under £12 when bought as a 12-pack. I now have 57 of them and they are absolutely, 100% reliable. I do like the slow action and, above all, the quiet operation. I removed the springs from the plain points to eliminate the loud click as they change (and which also defeats the slow-action) but I've not been able to do that for the slips as the springs are underneath. When I build the next layout etc. etc.

 

The NCE Switch-8s are designed for Tortoises (and presumably will also work Cobalts) and they do that very well. No problem at all changing two points on one decoder address, nor changing multiple addresses simultaneously, something you can't do with LS150s which is why I replaced them. At around £40 each, it works out at £5 per decoder port. At one place I have a number of crossovers and there are 14 Tortoises operated from one Switch-8. I did not consider the Traintronics TT300 decoder as it has the decoder built-in, which is inflexible if you want to operate two turnouts together - you waste a decoder. With Tortoises it requires only one decoder port.

 

The only change I had to make was using thicker wire for the Tortoises - 0.036" which is easily available off Ebay (search on "piano wire").

 

As regards wiring I simply soldered short wires to the solder tabs and connected them to standard 3A terminal blocks (either 5-way or 8-way depending on whether 1 or both switches were in use). This was easily done on the workbench before installation and simplfied wiring up below the baseboards.

Really interested in your comments here, can I ask did you wire two Tortoise motors to one switch-8 terminal so you only need one number to operate them together?. NCE say they will not guarantee wiring two together will always work.

cheers

silverlink

[beast66606]

Really interested in your comments here, can I ask did you wire two Tortoise motors to one switch-8 terminal so you only need one number to operate them together?. NCE say they will not guarantee wiring two together will always work.

cheers

silverlink

 

Yes you can wire two tortoises to one output and operate them as a crossover type arrangement - most of our fiddle yard points are wired that way.

[RFS]

 

Yes you can wire two tortoises to one output and operate them as a crossover type arrangement - most of our fiddle yard points are wired that way.

 

I agree too. No problem at all with crossovers wired in pairs to one output. I've got 7 on my layout, some of which include Peco slips with the spring still in. The caveat in the Switch-8 documentation may just be for legal reasons!

[silverlink]

 

Yes you can wire two tortoises to one output and operate them as a crossover type arrangement - most of our fiddle yard points are wired that way.

Thanks very much for your info, I'm now going to order my switch-8's and get them fitted into my layout.

silverlink

[Will Vale]

I'm another user of Tortoises with a Switch-8, and I'm generally very happy with the combination on my small layout. Similarly to RFS I soldered short wires to the edge connector (making sure they were well-insulated to avoid shorts) and ran these to terminal blocks off the layout - easy and convenient.

 

I'm using the original wire supplied with the Tortoises because I like the gentle springing, and I had to take care to make sure my points (Peco code 75 with springs removed) operate freely and that the motors are centred properly. Possibly more than most since I've mounted the Tortoises sideways to save space and operation goes through a right-angle linkage, which has a little slop in it. Free-operating points seem like a good thing anyway (and graphite applied to the slide chairs not only helps but looks exactly like 1:1 grease!) and so far has worked well. I had a problem where I thought a point was sticking and it turned out that the operating wire had escaped from the tie bar instead.

 

Two things to watch out for though:

 

* Don't run the switch-8 directly off your track bus - install a switch in the track bus and use a separate accessory bus for the point decoder(s). That way, if you enter points the wrong way and cause a short, you can flip the switch to turn off the track bus and re-align the points. If not, you have to push the offending loco away or remove it to clear the short.

 

* With my system (Powercab) I've more than once had a short on the layout cause the Switch-8 to forget its programmed address - very very annoying. It only loses the address on the output which is selected for programming though, so the fix is to make sure you turn the little rotary switch to an invalid output number when you're finished programming.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[Oldddudders]

I'm in the Tortoise corner, although I haven't tried most of the other brands mentioned other than Peco and Fulgurex. The clinching feature for operation on the visible part of the layout is the slow motion of the points, which replicates the geared motors of traditional power installations. That said, the clamp-lock hydraulic motors which came into fashion on BR in the '80s do have a more "snap" action about them - mind your fingers! For crossovers, I tend to run one point motor off the contacts of the other, thus using only one DCC input for the crossover, and having the motors operate in sequence, rather than in synch. I find that sounds more prototypical, as interlockings really do not always throw all the points at once.

[beast66606]

as interlockings really do not always throw all the points at once.

 

Power installations tend to - at least all the ones I've observed, all points in the route are "called" at once. A lever worked installation should allow at least 1second between moves to be realistic, amazing how some models of prototype locations, operated by a mechanical signal box, seem to have a signalman who can be at both ends of the cabin at once !

[RFS]

I'm another user of Tortoises with a Switch-8, and I'm generally very happy with the combination on my small layout. Similarly to RFS I soldered short wires to the edge connector (making sure they were well-insulated to avoid shorts) and ran these to terminal blocks off the layout - easy and convenient.

 

I'm using the original wire supplied with the Tortoises because I like the gentle springing, and I had to take care to make sure my points (Peco code 75 with springs removed) operate freely and that the motors are centred properly. Possibly more than most since I've mounted the Tortoises sideways to save space and operation goes through a right-angle linkage, which has a little slop in it. Free-operating points seem like a good thing anyway (and graphite applied to the slide chairs not only helps but looks exactly like 1:1 grease!) and so far has worked well. I had a problem where I thought a point was sticking and it turned out that the operating wire had escaped from the tie bar instead.

 

Two things to watch out for though:

 

* Don't run the switch-8 directly off your track bus - install a switch in the track bus and use a separate accessory bus for the point decoder(s). That way, if you enter points the wrong way and cause a short, you can flip the switch to turn off the track bus and re-align the points. If not, you have to push the offending loco away or remove it to clear the short.

 

* With my system (Powercab) I've more than once had a short on the layout cause the Switch-8 to forget its programmed address - very very annoying. It only loses the address on the output which is selected for programming though, so the fix is to make sure you turn the little rotary switch to an invalid output number when you're finished programming.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

 

I use a separate accessory bus to connect the Switch-8s to the main DCC command station (Lenz). The main DCC bus is fed through a PSX circuit breaker, but the accessory bus bypasses it. Thus, when a short occurs, only the track bus is turned off and the Switch-8s not only remain live, allowing me to correct the setting of the points (usually the cause of the short in the first place), but also are never exposed to short circuits. I've never had a Switch-8 lose its programmed address as a result.