Do you agree with this assessment of the Hammant and Morgan controllers ?

[johnofwessex]

Have you spoken to Ebay?

[AndyID]

8 hours ago, Dave B said:

 

Of course difficult to prove, but at the very.......

 

That's what is so insidious about asbestos. The effects of an exposure usually show-up many years, often decades, later. I suspect a formal diagnosis can only be confirmed with an autopsy.

[RJS1977]

9 hours ago, AndyID said:

That's what is so insidious about asbestos. The effects of an exposure usually show-up many years, often decades, later. I suspect a formal diagnosis can only be confirmed with an autopsy.

On the other hand, if many of the people using Duettes are now in their 70s or 80s, something that may cause health issues 30 or 40 years down the line isn't really going to be a problem for them.

[RJS1977]

12 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

Have you spoken to Ebay?

 

I suspect Ebay really don't have the capacity to vet every item sold on there to confirm whether they are safe to use or not.

 

Arguably the responsibility for ensuring that users of H&M controllers are warned about any potential dangers lies with Hornby, as the current owners of the H&M name.

[AndyID]

3 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

On the other hand, if many of the people using Duettes are now in their 70s or 80s, something that may cause health issues 30 or 40 years down the line isn't really going to be a problem for them.

Quite so. It's highly unlikely there can ever be any sort of correlation between the use of H&M rheostat controllers and those that have suffered from asbestosis. It's a bit like cigarettes only on a much smaller scale. The science demonstrated they  were very dangerous but it took a very long time for the science to become well accepted.

[RJS1977]

4 minutes ago, AndyID said:

Quite so. It's highly unlikely there can ever be any sort of correlation between the use of H&M rheostat controllers and those that have suffered from asbestosis. It's a bit like cigarettes only on a much smaller scale. The science demonstrated they  were very dangerous but it took a very long time for the science to become well accepted.

 

I'm not arguing whether or not there might be a correlation, merely that if anyone in their 70s or 80s inhales asbestos fibres now, they are likely to die of something else first. 

[AndyID]

4 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I'm not arguing whether or not there might be a correlation, merely that if anyone in their 70s or 80s inhales asbestos fibres now, they are likely to die of something else first. 

Of course. My concern is that they expose their children and their grandchildren to unnecessary risk. If resistance controllers were any use at all I might be able to see the point in doing that.

[WIMorrison]

Another reason for ditching these old controllers is efficiency, which is not something that concerned the designers when they were first conceived. The situation is now very different with electrical efficiency being paramount and whilst they may not appear to consume a lot of power, they consume vastly more power than the modern equivalent and that all adds to the size of the electricity bill 😒  

[Titan]

Well I have been using H&M controllers for nearly 50 years now and I am not dead yet!  However I have been exposed to plenty more asbestos than that from the controllers, when I was young it was everywhere!

[uax6]

16 minutes ago, Titan said:

Well I have been using H&M controllers for nearly 50 years now and I am not dead yet!  However I have been exposed to plenty more asbestos than that from the controllers, when I was young it was everywhere!

 

It still is... I would say that most buildings here in the UK built before 1990 have <some> level of asbestos contamination, even if it is only the asbestos in the artex on the ceilings. 

If left undisturbed the risks are so inestimably low that its not even worth considering them. A old H&M controller with an asbestos mat wound with the resistance wire? Again, unless you take it apart, and then grind the mat up, and then snort it like a line of coke, then again the risk to you and your family is so close to nill, that it makes no difference. 

 

There is really nothing to worry about... you are much more likely to die from normal atmospheric pollution, or that bus you step out in front of without looking..

 

Andy G 

Edited July 29, 2023 by uax6

[Free At Last]

 

24 minutes ago, Titan said:

Well I have been using H&M controllers for nearly 50 years now and I am not dead yet!  However I have been exposed to plenty more asbestos than that from the controllers, when I was young it was everywhere!

I remember in the '50s we made toast on an asbestos mat on the gas ring, and the ironing board had a piece of asbestos to place the hot iron on.

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Another reason for ditching these old controllers is efficiency, which is not something that concerned the designers when they were first conceived. The situation is now very different with electrical efficiency being paramount and whilst they may not appear to consume a lot of power, they consume vastly more power than the modern equivalent and that all adds to the size of the electricity bill 😒  

That isn't a fair comparison. It wasn't that the designers didn't care, they had to work with materials available to them, such as resistive wire.

 

Asbestos, however is a different matter. The poor health effects were discovered at the turn of the early 1900 and largely ignored, even when presented to the British parliament in the 1930s, until the 1970s, when cases of Asbestosis started adding up considerably.

 

So long before Fred Hammant & Arthur Morgan invented their first controller.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos#Discovery_of_toxicity

Edited July 29, 2023 by kevinlms
More info

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

 

It still is... I would say that most buildings here in the UK built before 1990 have <some> level of asbestos contamination, even if it is only the asbestos in the artex on the ceilings. 

If left undisturbed the risks are so inestimably low that its not even worth considering them. A old H&M controller with an asbestos mat wound with the resistance wire? Again, unless you take it apart, and then grind the mat up, and then snort it like a line of coke, then again the risk to you and your family is so close to nill, that it makes no difference. 

 

There is really nothing to worry about... you are much more likely to die from normal atmospheric pollution, or that bus you step out in front of without looking..

 

Andy G 

But you might be prepared to accept the risks for yourself, but what about grandchildren, who might one day have to deal with your deceased estate, perhaps by dismantling and breaking it up in their ignorance - assuming for now that the asbestos didn't kill you.

I've certainly met people, who got their kicks out of destroying old equipment and I'm making a general statement, not specifically asbestos containing items.

 

You can argue that stepping in front of a bus is going to kill you, but it's more likely to be a quick death, not agony for years.

[uax6]

20 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

But you might be prepared to accept the risks for yourself, but what about grandchildren, who might one day have to deal with your deceased estate, perhaps by dismantling and breaking it up in their ignorance - assuming for now that the asbestos didn't kill you.

I've certainly met people, who got their kicks out of destroying old equipment and I'm making a general statement, not specifically asbestos containing items.

 

You can argue that stepping in front of a bus is going to kill you, but it's more likely to be a quick death, not agony for years.

 

But again the chances of one H&M resistance mat having that one fibre that has your name on it (and everyone requires a bespoke length for it to effect them) is so small to be irrelevant.

I agree that we shouldn't be in this position, and that every bit of asbestos should be put back into the earth where it came from, but unless you are willing to raise millions of billions (And that's UK billions, not the short US ones!) of any currency you choose, that just isn't going to happen. 

Having an asbestos expert as a friend, he is very much of the opinion that unless you were physically handing vast quantities for many years, then the chances of being effected is very much nil. 

Remember Asbestos brake shoes in your car? Did you do your own brakes and blow the dust out? Have you now got an asbestos related health problem?

 

Its very much a panic that most of us really don't need to worry about. 

Me? I'm more concerned about the arsenic in cotton covered wiring and old wallpaper than the tiny amount of asbestos in the house, although I did wear a proper mask when removing artex at home, and double bagged it before taking it to the tip to be disposed of.

 

 

Andy G

 

Edit: Did you know that Turner and Newall (the big world wide Asbestos manufacturer) was one of the leading developers of fibre-glass? Guess what fibre they used? Yeap Asbestos. Now this was their main focus from the end of the second world war, so how much of that exists still? I bet there are thousands of cars, boats, baths etc that came from that source, and then of course there's bakelite objects. Lots of these use asbestos as filler (although the companies that made GPO telephones in the UK all used wood-flour and not asbestos), so there's another source. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by uax6

[WIMorrison]

33 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

That isn't a fair comparison. It wasn't that the designers didn't care, they had to work with materials available to them, such as resistive wire.

 

I disagree and consider it a perfectly reasonable comparison. I didn't criticise the choice of materials that they made at that time, nor their skills in designing something that has stood the test of time.

 

The concerns that we have today about the costs and means of generation for electricity simply did not exist when these controllers were originally designed, and the materials, components and design methods available led to the inherently inefficient use of electricity, especially when compared to a modern power source. Even the rather aged Gaugemaster units are much more efficient, and kinder to the modern motors used in today's models.

 

When you add this inherent inefficiency to the potential of medical dangers, plus the design of modern motors I see little justification for the continued sale and use of these controllers.

[kevinlms]

35 minutes ago, uax6 said:

 

 

 

Its very much a panic that most of us really don't need to worry about. 

Me? I'm more concerned about the arsenic in cotton covered wiring and old wallpaper than the tiny amount of asbestos in the house, although I did wear a proper mask when removing artex at home, and double bagged it before taking it to the tip to be disposed of.

 

 

Andy G

 

 

Why do you suggest that there is a reason to panic? Asbestos should be avoided where possible and practical. Continuing to use controllers with asbestos containing mats, is not a necessity - it really is that simple.

Taking into account that far superior controllers are available now, why would anyone really want them?

[uax6]

4 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Why do you suggest that there is a reason to panic? Asbestos should be avoided where possible and practical. Continuing to use controllers with asbestos containing mats, is not a necessity - it really is that simple.

Taking into account that far superior controllers are available now, why would anyone really want them?

 

I didn't, you were the one that was suggesting what a massive problem it was. 

Edit: Using the controller is unlikely to release asbestos fibres anyway...

Andy G

Edited July 29, 2023 by uax6

[rodent279]

21 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

I disagree and consider it a perfectly reasonable comparison. I didn't criticise the choice of materials that they made at that time, nor their skills in designing something that has stood the test of time.

 

The concerns that we have today about the costs and means of generation for electricity simply did not exist when these controllers were originally designed, and the materials, components and design methods available led to the inherently inefficient use of electricity, especially when compared to a modern power source. Even the rather aged Gaugemaster units are much more efficient, and kinder to the modern motors used in today's models.

 

When you add this inherent inefficiency to the potential of medical dangers, plus the design of modern motors I see little justification for the continued sale and use of these controllers.

I think even Gaugemasters had an asbestos lined rheostat in as the half wave/full wave controller. I suppose you could ditch that, and wire it straight through, then you'd have an asbestos free unit, but you've still got to disturb the asbestos mat to remove it.

I just ditched the whole thing.

[Oldddudders]

3 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Why do you suggest that there is a reason to panic? Asbestos should be avoided where possible and practical. Continuing to use controllers with asbestos containing mats, is not a necessity - it really is that simple.

Taking into account that far superior controllers are available now, why would anyone really want them?

Because H&M were seen as high-end products in the past, and people would rather spend the budget on the visible aspects of the layout - trains - rather than the offstage ones, which they consider work as well as ever. 

[rodent279]

If I really wanted an old style controller, I'd look for a case on eBay, with no innards, then make my own to go in it.

[kevinlms]

29 minutes ago, uax6 said:

 

I didn't, you were the one that was suggesting what a massive problem it was. 

Edit: Using the controller is unlikely to release asbestos fibres anyway...

Andy G

You raised the issue of PANIC not me!

 

So anyone who contradicts you is panicking? Asbestos in controllers is avoidable - there I've said it again as you didn't understand last time!

[uax6]

Just now, kevinlms said:

You raised the issue of PANIC not me!

 

So anyone who contradicts you is panicking? Asbestos in controllers is avoidable - there I've said it again as you didn't understand last time!

I totally understood what you said. Maybe I shouldn't have casually used the word panic, but to suggest that a H&M controller could kill my grandchildren in an agonising way (as you suggested) smacks of you panicking, does it not?

 

Anyway, I've said my piece so I'll shut up.

 

Andy G 

[kevinlms]

31 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

If I really wanted an old style controller, I'd look for a case on eBay, with no innards, then make my own to go in it.

There are lots of similar styled cases around, in plastic, aluminium or steel.

[kevinlms]

1 minute ago, uax6 said:

I totally understood what you said. Maybe I shouldn't have casually used the word panic, but to suggest that a H&M controller could kill my grandchildren in an agonising way (as you suggested) smacks of you panicking, does it not?

 

Anyway, I've said my piece so I'll shut up.

 

Andy G 

Yes, a poor choice of word and disagree with your usage.

But I do understand that some people think the risk is so minor, to be insignificant as to be of zero concern. Not one I agree with, as you can tell.

Good luck with your descendants (if any) - I don't have them, but I still think of others.

[andyman7]

This thread emphasises how unsuited the primitive instincts in the human brain are to assessing risks. There are undoubtedly known risks regarding some of the materials used in these older controllers; that is not to say that when assessed alongside all the other risk factors that life brings us that we should be panicking unduly about them. For example, in the case of ebay, we might argue that they should take more of an interest; but then again I would rather they spent time ridding the site of unsuitable, non-compliant e-bike chargers whcih are statistically going to cause more injuries to life and limb than a Duette is ever likely to.
The main argument made several times over is that all of these old resistance mat controllers are now many decades old, are electrically inefficient and not at all suited to the types of model railway mechanisms that have been used for many years. For me, the modern budget go-to controller of the day has to be the Gaugemaster combi, small, light, efficient - and much easier for kids too than messing around with half wave/full wave/low/high resistance...  

Edited July 29, 2023 by andyman7