Waton

[eldavo]

More fiddly bits. The security fence between the car park and the station has at last been put in place. I've been putting this off as I knew it would be a bit fiddly and also once in place quite vulnerable to damage. This is made up from 3 lengths of Pete Harvey's (PH Designs) brass etch. The stuff is half-etched 4 thou brass so it's like handling tissue paper! Lovely detail in the etches though and does a proper job. No way I could get this effect without these etches though I still have to bed the fence in to the greenery properly and straighten out a few bits I've clumped already!




Another fiddly job I've been working on is finishing off the wiring. The challenge rules say a train has to move so it's sort it out or go for the Brio technique! I started a prototype control panel a while back so this has now been finished off. Very basic and will be replaced at some point. It's a "one day" job i.e. I'll do it one day.




Looks pretty simple from the outside, a signalling diagram, 8 signal levers (switches) and 5( ) point levers. This belies a bit of complication. The set-up is rigged for 2 DC controllers, one operating Eastbound trains and one operating Westbound trains. The power sections are switched by operating the appropriate signal levers and the signal levers only operate if the appropriate points are set. In other words the whole lot is electrically interlocked. It's not a full interlocking as at present the points aren't locked in place once the signals are pulled, that's another "one day" project.

Things are further complicated by the fact that platform 2 is signalled for bi-directional running and thus when a signal is pulled not only must the sections be activated but the correct controller must be connected. It would also be a bad thing if conflicting signals could be pulled on this section!

The complications have rather led to an explosion of spaghetti inside the control box. Of course the MK II version will be much neater.



I have a couple of recalcitrant point motors and switch blades to sort out then hopefully I can run a train or two from end to end. That would be a real landmark.

Cheers
Dave

Edited September 5, 2017 by eldavo

[PhilH]

That looks to be a proper job Dave! Interlocking too, that ought to impress the judges.

[Pete Harvey]

Dave

 

That looks great and you are so casual about the wiring such a major job and so nicely done.

 

Have you sorted the cars for the car park and road?

 

Pete

[eldavo]

... Have you sorted the cars for the car park and road?

 

Not yet. Haven't found anything I like at a price I'm prepared to pay. Could do with a range of modern stuff and a few old Jaguars. Any clues?

 

Cheers

Dave

[Kris]

I'm impressed that you have gone down the route of interlocking.

[grahame]

Could do with a range of modern stuff and a few old Jaguars. Any clues?

 

 

Oford DieCast and R Parker have probably got the old Jags covered but more modern cars is more problematic in N gauge. See this thread;

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/19070-the-need-for-modern-road-vehicles-in-n-gauge/

 

G.

[eldavo]

Thanks Grahame. I think the model will have to be set on a Sunday with very little road traffic!

 

Cheers

Dave

[branchie]

Loving your work Dave.

 

Just a quick question, what's the morley controller like to use?

 

Thanks,

Branchie.

[eldavo]

... Just a quick question, what's the morley controller like to use?

 

To be honest I haven't used it much (yet). I acquired it secondhand and Waton is the first layout I have wired it up to. Seems OK so far. I have found that the built-in 16AC supply is not man enough for the Conrad point motors I am using. Checking the motor spec sheets I found they are rated at 1amp! The Morley only putsa out 7.5 VA on it's AC output and will move one Conrad at a time (fairly well) but can't shift a pair wired together, they just stall mid-way across their throw until one is given manual assistance.

 

The speed control side of things seems smooth enough and there's plenty of range in terms of knob movement. Time will tell.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Pete Harvey]

Me thinks a trusty Gaugemaster controller/AC power supply may be needed Dave

 

I'm sure that you will work it out.

 

Pete

[dave_long]

Me thinks a trusty Gaugemaster controller/AC power supply may be needed Dave

 

I'm sure that you will work it out.

 

Pete

 

 

Thats what works my conrad motors. I have also heard that if you can lower that to around the 12v mark then you'll get the conrad to work almost like a slow action motor.

[eldavo]

Thanks for the tips chaps. Powers supply on order.

 

Cheers

Dave

[eldavo]

I'll probably regret this but one or two folks have asked for some detail on how the interlocking is achieved. First up let me provide some disclaimers. I'm not a signalling expert so I may well talk a lot of cods. Also my electrical knowledge is only that of one of the great unwashed learning through experience so a similar caveat is appropriate.

OK, I'll try and explain some of the basics of how the power feeds and interlocking are accomplished. I don't currently have a circuit diagram as the current control panel is a bit of a prototype and will (one day) be replaced by a proper solution. Hence I'm describing how it should work not necessarily how I have it working at the moment.

Here's a really simple example from part of my track plan, it's a single turnout with two signals protecting it. The signals and point both have numbers by them representing the lever in the signalbox frame that operates them. The "F" numbers represent power feeds. For the time being we will assume that trains travel from left to right only through this junction and that somewhere to the right is the next signal somewhere in the F1 feed section. As per normal there are insulated rail joiners/gaps at the ends of the two frog rails.

In signalling parlance when the levers in the signalbox frame are back in the frame i.e. not pulled towards the signalman, they are referred to as "normal". When the signalman pulls a lever to move a turnout or set a signal to green it is referred to as "reversed". I've no idea why but that seems to be the way it is.



For a train to proceed past signal 1 the turnout needs to be in the straight (normal) position, signal 1 needs to be green and the controller needs to deliver power to feeds F0 and F1. To proceed past signal 2 the turnout lever (5) must reversed to set the turnout to the curved route, signal 2 must be green and we must deliver power to F00 and F1.

As well as those conditions we must also make sure that if a train is moving past signal 1 the turnout (5) cannot be moved, signal 2 must be red and F00 must be dead. Likewise if a train is moving past signal 2 the turnout (5) must stay reversed, signal 1 must be red and F0 must be dead.

Now we have the rules of operation how do we implement this?

Usually you would wire up your layout to have points operated by some form of switch, stud and probe, passing contact, double throw centre off, etc. and in addition you would either power the whole lot then wire isolated sections or have control over feeds to let you park trains/locos around the place. In the case of Waton there are (will be) 13 simple single pole switches that comprise the control panel. Of these 5 control signals and the other 8 control tunrnouts. In all cases the switches are not directly wired to the point motor or signal but instead turn power on to the acctuator coil of a relay. The relays are either 4 pole or 2 pole changeover.

For those not familiar with relays what they are is basically a solenoid that operates several switches at once. A 4 pole relay usually has 4 sets of 3 contacts allowing it to be wired to select either one or another connection on each of the 4 poles or simply provide off-on or on-off switching on each set independently.

So back to the example. If all the switches are set to normal i.e. off, I can allow a train to proceed past signal 1 by simply pulling lever 1. Pulling this lever will deliver 12 volts to the coil of relay 1. On relay 1 one set of contacts changes the signal aspect, another connects the controller to feed F0 and another connects the controller to F1. The 4th set of contacts breaks the 12 volt feed to switch 2 and switch 5. So once I have pulled switch 1 pulling both switches 2 and 5 no longer has any effect. When switch one is returned to normal the feeds are disconnected and the 12volt supply is reinstated to switches 2 and 5, well almost!

To allow a train to pass signal 2 switch 5 must have been pulled to set the turnout therefore there is no 12volt supply delivered to switch 2 normally but this is fed from a set of contacts on relay 5 which is activated by switch 5. So to move a train past signal 2 I must first pull switch 5. Relay 5 is then activated, one set of contacts delivers 12 volts to switch 2, another set of contacts interrupts the 12 volt supply to swich 1 and the 3rd set of contacts provides the changeover switching to operate the point motor. So immediatley the turnout is set switch 1 is inoperative.

When I pull switch 2 relay 2 operates and one set of contacts changes the signal aspect, the second and third set switch the controller feed to F00 and F1 and the 4th contact delivers power to the coil of relay 5. Were you expecting that wrinkle? So once I have pulled signal 2 switch 5 does nothing and relay 5 is held on to ensure the turnout cannot be set against the train and signal 1 is also locked out.

Simples!

No it isn't simple I'll admit but the most complex signalling scheme is basically built up of sets of these patterns. It's a logic puzzle which for someone who has been hacking computer software for 35 years is sort of intuitive. I have never played with relay logic before this so it's early days for me but the one of the biggest problems is actually defining the interlocking rules which you have to do by working through the signalling sequences. There are basically 8 routes (I think) through Waton but there is the additional complexity of bi-directional working on platform 2 and the Walsall branch. I hope it all works!

Cheers
Dave

Edited September 5, 2017 by eldavo

[mudmagnet]

Dave,

 

The fencing looks the part. I have 4mm version and very good it is as well, but must handle with care - I guess that the 2mm is much worse.

[Guest Dave.C]

Hi Dave,

 

 

Just managed to negociate my way through the whole thread, and what a good read it was. Can I go right back almost to the beginning and ask how deep in the vertical sense your baseboards are ?

 

 

Thanks

 

 

[branchie]

To be honest I haven't used it much (yet). I acquired it secondhand and Waton is the first layout I have wired it up to. Seems OK so far. I have found that the built-in 16AC supply is not man enough for the Conrad point motors I am using. Checking the motor spec sheets I found they are rated at 1amp! The Morley only putsa out 7.5 VA on it's AC output and will move one Conrad at a time (fairly well) but can't shift a pair wired together, they just stall mid-way across their throw until one is given manual assistance.

 

The speed control side of things seems smooth enough and there's plenty of range in terms of knob movement. Time will tell.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Thanks for the info Dave.

Branchie.

[eldavo]

... Can I go right back almost to the beginning and ask how deep in the vertical sense your baseboards are ?

 

No problem. The plywood side frames of the baseboards are 100mm deep and the trackbed is 20mm above the top edge of these. The ground contours vary along the length of the layout so shaped facing boards of 3mm MDF have been added to finish it off.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Guest Dave.C]

Thanks Dave,

I built an earlier board out of thin ply like this which only had 3†(75mm) deep sides and was contemplating 4†as you have done or even 5†for my next.

 

Cheers

[eldavo]

Still struggling to get the Conrad point motors to do anything useful even after connecting up a 1.5A 16vAC supply! Not sure quite what to do about the bloomin' things.

 

Just to show it is possible to have trains move on this trainset here's a video...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajVbaj9OYw4

 

Cheers

Dave

[dave_long]

I did have some issues with them, but thats on spring less peco code 100 streamline points. Plus they were set up directly underneath to work ala peco/seep motors directly into the hole in the tiebar. Often they would bounce and leave the point blades open. What are you actually having an issue with?

[eldavo]

I did have some issues with them, but thats on spring less peco code 100 streamline points. Plus they were set up directly underneath to work ala peco/seep motors directly into the hole in the tiebar. Often they would bounce and leave the point blades open. What are you actually having an issue with?

 

The Conrad motors seem to need a huge amout of power in order to throw properly. The ones I have wired up as singles throw OK with my 1.5 amp power supply but on the crossovers where I have 2 motors wired up they simply don't throw past the halfway point even when they are not connected to the point tiebar i.e. no load. Considering they are obviously taking at least an amp each they are totally gutless. Really annoyed with myself for trying to save money in using them rather than getting Tortoise motors.

 

Cheers

Dave

[dave_long]

I've found that they are a little gutless. I'd never tried them in a crossover situation the ones I've used have always been in singular. I'm not that electrickery minded but the motors inside the conrads are in fact DC motors if you can find a way of getting round the need for an AC feed then that might offer up a solution. It was Andy Dell that told me the motors were DC so he might be able to shed some light on how to swap the feed from AC to DC, unless you know your self?

 

 

 

 

hth

 

Dave

 

 

[Will Vale]

Possibly a stupid question since I'm not an electronics whizz, but have you wired the crossover in series or parallel? I could imagine that one (or t'other) might give you a situation where one motor stalls first (and draws more than its fair share of current) thus depriving the other of the juice it needs to finish the throw. Looking back maybe that's not right (because neither is completing the throw) but maybe it'll suggest something.

 

I fully expect to get shot down by someone who does know about this stuff

 

Will

 

 

[bcnPete]

Just to show it is possible to have trains move on this trainset here's a video...

 

I am useless with sparks so I won't try and offer any comments on that (sorry) but I just wanted to say I enjoyed the video and the closing credits made me laugh Nice one - Pete

[eldavo]

While I work up the strength to go another ten rounds with the recalcitrant point motors I've been doing some therapeutic work on greenery. Actually after the last six months maybe I should be in full-time therapy!

The security fencing between the car park and track is starting to get bedded in though there is still work to do here.



At the end of the car park a set of crude recycling bins (5) have appeared and these will eventually be worked up into a mini-recycling centre.



Down at the Western, river, end I have cobbled together some fencing, grassed the remaining areas of bare ground and started on the hedging etc.



With this lot done this weekend there are very few areas of bare ground. A couple of areas are waiting for buildings and (lots) more trees but everything has some scenic coverage at last. It's only 10ft long but it's taken a lot of work to cover it!



Cheers
Dave

Edited September 5, 2017 by eldavo