Heljan O gauge western

[steve fay]

It has been confirmed that Heljan are to produce the Western in O gauge.

Tower models are now advertising them and if they get enough interest they are going to do two limited editions

D1000 in desert Sand

D1015 in Golden Ochre

[Pete Piszczek]

You have to wonder if it will have the same silly errors as their 4mm Wessie.

 

Kim Nannestad made false statements in regards to correcting the 4mm model; I'd certainly want to see the final product before committing any serious dosh on a 7mm version...

[luke_stevens]

I think we'll need to see some CADs before most people who want one would be prepared to commit. Some modellers are happy with the Heljan western in 4mm, and it does still sell. But the accuracy of the tooling will determine multiple purchases and snap purchases.

 

As for the 4mm Western the problem Heljan seems to have created was that the mould dividing line on the front was the cab roof line. Tweaking the body of tooling isn't difficult but tweaking the edges of 2 moulds can be complex and fiendishly expensive. Kin will have known that and really should have said. They did make some changes to the Western but couldn't afford to correct the cab. It would have required a total body retool and added, my estimate, £50 to the cost of the loco, which wasn't going to financially practical.

 

If the new CADs are good then there shouldn't be a problem. If not...

[Pennine MC]

 

As for the 4mm Western the problem Heljan seems to have created was that the mould dividing line on the front was the cab roof line. Tweaking the body of tooling isn't difficult but tweaking the edges of 2 moulds can be complex and fiendishly expensive. Kin will have known that and really should have said. They did make some changes to the Western but couldn't afford to correct the cab. It would have required a total body retool and added, my estimate, £50 to the cost of the loco, which wasn't going to financially practical.

 

 

Well that's interesting, I've never previously heard any proper explanation of that. But as with other manufacturers who've dropped the ball on a model to some significant degree, they've created a 'damned if they do, damned if they dont' situation for themselves. They'll be criticised if the 7mm version still has the cab error, and if it doesnt, they'll be criticised for not revising the 4mm one.

[steve fay]

I hope they get it right because I could do with a few of theses for Ranelagh Bridge.

[brian daniels]

It will be looked at again, don't worry.

[Rugd1022]

Well if Uncle Brian is sure Heljan are going down the right route with this one I'm in.... I've been seriously tempted by the JLTRT Western kit a few times, but a r-t-r version that's the right shape will be a better option for me. Bring it on

[Pete Piszczek]

As for the 4mm Western the problem Heljan seems to have created was that the mould dividing line on the front was the cab roof line. Tweaking the body of tooling isn't difficult but tweaking the edges of 2 moulds can be complex and fiendishly expensive. Kin will have known that and really should have said. They did make some changes to the Western but couldn't afford to correct the cab. It would have required a total body retool and added, my estimate, £50 to the cost of the loco, which wasn't going to financially practical.

 

I've also not heard this aspect of the story before. The cost of the injection molded body is certainly the most expensive part of a model, although I'd have to question the £50 cost increase estimate on a couple of points.

 

Lewis Polk, of Aristocraft fame, was always quite forthcoming regarding the costs associated with developing his line of large scale locomotives. Around 2001 or 2002, he stated that the cost of bodies for a new 1/29 scale diesel was on the shy side of $100, which included the cost of the tool spread over the number of bodies. This was for a physically larger set of injection molded pieces than the 4mm scale Western, and Lewis stated that the cost of the mold really increases with scale. Aristo production was at Sanda Kan at the time, and assuming the same number of units, life of the mold, etc. gives some baseline to costs if Heljan had to produce a whole new tool for a revised Western body. The Heljan body would certainly have been less than the $100 quoted above.

 

The discussions concerning the Heljan Western deficiencies started in Jan 2004 when the first article was initially shown on their website, which is not that much later than the time period of the aforementioned $100 Aristo body, which would probably have been about £60 back then. Remember, that was for a set of injection molded pieces that were physically almost three times larger in each dimension than the 4mm Western.

 

If a new body had increased the cost of the 4mm Western by £50, you also have to assume that was the cost proportion of the original body to the 2005 price, and that is tough one to swallow for a model that had a box shifter price of about £75 in early in 2005. Someone at Heljan ran the numbers and obviously decided they could sell more flawed Westerns at £75 than much better, retooled ones, at £100. I suppose we shall see how good a business decision that was when the more expensive, and hopefully close to perfect, Dapol units start flying off the shelves next year.

 

It's all water under the bridge now I suppose, and I do apologize for going slightly, off topic.

[brian daniels]

Well I know they will be looking at the cabs etc again but whether they get it right or not is another question Nidge.

 

Anyone got any Western drawings?

[luke_stevens]

 

I've also not heard this aspect of the story before. The cost of the injection molded body is certainly the most expensive part of a model, although I'd have to question the £50 cost increase estimate on a couple of points.

 

Lewis Polk, of Aristocraft fame, was always quite forthcoming regarding the costs associated with developing his line of large scale locomotives. Around 2001 or 2002, he stated that the cost of bodies for a new 1/29 scale diesel was on the shy side of $100, which included the cost of the tool spread over the number of bodies. This was for a physically larger set of injection molded pieces than the 4mm scale Western, and Lewis stated that the cost of the mold really increases with scale. Aristo production was at Sanda Kan at the time, and assuming the same number of units, life of the mold, etc. gives some baseline to costs if Heljan had to produce a whole new tool for a revised Western body. The Heljan body would certainly have been less than the $100 quoted above.

 

The discussions concerning the Heljan Western deficiencies started in Jan 2004 when the first article was initially shown on their website, which is not that much later than the time period of the aforementioned $100 Aristo body, which would probably have been about £60 back then. Remember, that was for a set of injection molded pieces that were physically almost three times larger in each dimension than the 4mm Western.

 

If a new body had increased the cost of the 4mm Western by £50, you also have to assume that was the cost proportion of the original body to the 2005 price, and that is tough one to swallow for a model that had a box shifter price of about £75 in early in 2005. Someone at Heljan ran the numbers and obviously decided they could sell more flawed Westerns at £75 than much better, retooled ones, at £100. I suppose we shall see how good a business decision that was when the more expensive, and hopefully close to perfect, Dapol units start flying off the shelves next year.

 

It's all water under the bridge now I suppose, and I do apologize for going slightly, off topic.

 

On 31st Dec 2001 $100 = £68.75.

 

To me the $100 per 1:29 loco seems a little low.

 

I'm sure that the increase in size does have a contribution to the increase in cost but I'm also sure that the amount of detail is far more important: the cost of tooling an under frame tank on a 7mm loco will be much less than the cost of tooling a complete 2mm loco body. I have a memory from way back when someone at Bachmann mentioned that the cost of tooling an 2mm loco body was the same as a 4mm loco body, somewhere around £100,00 for commercial production (someone should ask Kernow!)

 

Re-tooling will also have created issues with the inevitable delay in getting back to the tooling room, revenue lost from products being delayed, something else being slipped from the production schedule, etc. There may also have been a budget for the development and production and retooling would have made the Western no longer viable.

 

The £50 is of the original rrp. As with most investment Heljan would have to have sold a particular number before they were turning a profit. If retooling meant that number exceeded the scheduled production run that would also cause issues (return on investment, spaces in production schedule, cash tied up in parts not used until the retooled body was ready). By the time of the box shifters and trade price Westerns, Heljan would have recouped its costs and anything above production costs would have been profit.

 

I'm not sure the sales of the new Dapol one will cast much light on Heljan decision of cheaper flawed loco vis expensive better loco. 2005 was a long time ago and the new Western is from a different manufacturer. That in its self will mean more sales that a revised tooling Heljan Western.

 

At least Dapol are doing a new Western and taking time and effore to seek (and get!) feed back from us modellers. May it prove worth while!

[NickL2008]

 

I've also not heard this aspect of the story before. The cost of the injection molded body is certainly the most expensive part of a model, although I'd have to question the £50 cost increase estimate on a couple of points.

 

Lewis Polk, of Aristocraft fame, was always quite forthcoming regarding the costs associated with developing his line of large scale locomotives. Around 2001 or 2002, he stated that the cost of bodies for a new 1/29 scale diesel was on the shy side of $100, which included the cost of the tool spread over the number of bodies. This was for a physically larger set of injection molded pieces than the 4mm scale Western, and Lewis stated that the cost of the mold really increases with scale. Aristo production was at Sanda Kan at the time, and assuming the same number of units, life of the mold, etc. gives some baseline to costs if Heljan had to produce a whole new tool for a revised Western body. The Heljan body would certainly have been less than the $100 quoted above.

 

The discussions concerning the Heljan Western deficiencies started in Jan 2004 when the first article was initially shown on their website, which is not that much later than the time period of the aforementioned $100 Aristo body, which would probably have been about £60 back then. Remember, that was for a set of injection molded pieces that were physically almost three times larger in each dimension than the 4mm Western.

 

If a new body had increased the cost of the 4mm Western by £50, you also have to assume that was the cost proportion of the original body to the 2005 price, and that is tough one to swallow for a model that had a box shifter price of about £75 in early in 2005. Someone at Heljan ran the numbers and obviously decided they could sell more flawed Westerns at £75 than much better, retooled ones, at £100. I suppose we shall see how good a business decision that was when the more expensive, and hopefully close to perfect, Dapol units start flying off the shelves next year.

 

It's all water under the bridge now I suppose, and I do apologize for going slightly, off topic.

 

Its something that practically all Western models have suffered from, that and bogie clearance, lets hope that Heljan address the issue and maybe release another 4mm batch, for me id rather pay £100 for new tolling rather than £75 for a model that requires a file having being taken to it

 

NL

[MD655]

Well, it would appear that they will do their best at getting it right as a couple of guys representing Heljan have been to the SVR recently to do some preliminary measurements of a couple of Wezzies parked at Bridgnorth.

[two tone green]

Sounds promising

[Southernman46]

Got mine thought out already - 1st one I ever saw (Weymouth in late 1971 as a spotty 9-year old) - she didn't look quite like this mind you.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63616124@N06/5792929034/

[steve fay]

I hope they get it right., I would like a few of these

[Guest Phil]

 

It's all water under the bridge now I suppose, and I do apologize for going slightly, off topic.

 

Not at all Pete.

This site is for all aspects of model railways.

 

Thanks

[brushman47544]

Anyone got any Western drawings?

Hasn't that always been part of the problem. Didn't Lima copy the drawings but Swindon built them slightly differently.

 

Well, it would appear that they will do their best at getting it right as a couple of guys representing Heljan have been to the SVR recently to do some preliminary measurements of a couple of Wezzies parked at Bridgnorth.

Yes, a much better idea.

[brian daniels]

Well a Heljan 7mm Western has just landed in Oxford

 

But if anyone wants to see it then I'm affraid you will have to go to the O Gauge Guild show at Telford on September 8-9th (It's only another 4 weeks!).

 

I will put some pictures of it on here after the show for those that can't get there. In the mean time, trust me, it looks and runs like a Western. Although there are a few little issues to get sorted so when you do see it bear in mind there will be a couple of detail changes to come.

[two tone green]

Dam, I cannot make Telford this year, on holiday.

 

Ok, will cancel holiday.

[campaigner]

Better start doin the lottery me thinks

[paulbb]

Excellent - so the 7mm one will not be like the 4mm one? or be as unconvincing as a 7mm class 47 ?

They are a bit hit and miss tho....

[brian daniels]

This was a completly new CAD and I think it looks the part. I have been running it on my garden test track to see if there are any faults. It runs and pulls superbly. Looks cracking going round the garden with 8 JLTRT blue and grey MkI's on.

 

You wil just have to go to Telford to see it for yourself!

[luke_stevens]

"In the mean time, trust me, it looks and runs like a Western."

 

It's a bit off putting that Heljan won't let us look at it.

 

Considering the problems they have had in the past, if they have got it correct this time you'd expect them to be singing and dancing from the roof tops.

 

I'd rather see it and make my own judgement before I commit any money.

 

Remembering how much time effort and feedback that Dapol have taken to get their 4mm Western correct after they had done the laser scan, for Heljan to get a model correct without that user-contribution would be impressive. (And sadly out of character).

 

I hope it is correct but it is an odd way of marketing a new product.

 

Luke

[The Stationmaster]

It's a bit off putting that Heljan won't let us look at it.

(snipped)

I hope it is correct but it is an odd way of marketing a new product.

Luke

 

Surely it's a sensible marketing idea for a manufacturer to launch a new product at an important show? And what's more they've 'let slip' that it will be there - thus creating even more interest (and they've got someone in the meanwhile giving it the 'thumbs up' which gets even more froth flowing). All in all it strikes me as a pretty clever way to bring something to the market - interest generated in advance means folk will be there to see it.

 

Different scale an' all that but I sincerely hope we'll be seeing some of this year's 'western' releases appearing at 'Steam' in a similar fashion.

[brian daniels]

I think Heljan announced the Western at Telford last year, surely you can wait 4 more weeks then you can pick it to bits till your hearts content. I, and Heljan are confident that it will sell out reguardless.