LNER4479 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Check out the Cawston book for the details. It's all on the page titled 'the arrival of the Pacifics' (I think). There were other workings as well. I have the 8:55am Scottish express (from Glasgow Queen Street) as also being a Grantham A1 coming of the train (this time at Grantham, 3:43-3:49) so that would have come on at York. The Gateshead workings are interesting as some of their workings brought locos and men as far down as Grantham (apparently, the Gateshead men had some of the best route knowledge of all the ECML depots). Route knowledge is also a significant factor in the workings of locos and men! Doncaster I'm not sure about. Having just read the new Banks/Carter book, I think the Doncaster locos might have been concentrated on the section south to King's Cross. Banks/Carter emphasise how the services to Leeds were often heavily portioned, Doncaster being the first place where the portions started splitting off (typically Hull), hence a heavy train south of Doncaster demanding a pacific if (expensive) double-heading was to be avoided. RCTS Vol.2A also has some useful snippets re loco workings. All fascinating stuff! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Hi Tom, I've a book somewhere that tells of The Queen of Scots Pullman from Edinburgh, A4 hauled, changing for an A3 at Gateshead (this is around 1955 and the A3 was Spearmint as I recall) and that changed for a Copely Hill A1 at Leeds. Interestingly, extra Pullman cars were attached at Leeds. I would have thought that post-war workings wouldn't have been terribly different from pre-war, but - as I've remarked - I am very ignorant of these matters and will stand corrected. (Till I find the damn book, anyway!) Tony. That sounds right Tony. A significant factor in the workings of the pacifics pre-war is that they were banned south of Leeds on account of a weak bridge in the Wakefield area. This was upgraded in the winter of 1936 (almost certainly due to the impending implementation of the 'West Riding Limited' for the summer 1937 timetable) and workings then altered somewhat. Up until that time, the Atlantics (famously) held sway on the Queen of Scots south of Leeds. There are some fantastic pictures of King's Cross Atlantics, bulled up to the Nines, on these workings. What a fine sight they must have made! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Check out the Cawston book for the details. It's all on the page titled 'the arrival of the Pacifics' (I think). There were other workings as well. I have the 8:55am Scottish express (from Glasgow Queen Street) as also being a Grantham A1 coming of the train (this time at Grantham, 3:43-3:49) so that would have come on at York. The Gateshead workings are interesting as some of their workings brought locos and men as far down as Grantham (apparently, the Gateshead men had some of the best route knowledge of all the ECML depots). Route knowledge is also a significant factor in the workings of locos and men! Doncaster I'm not sure about. Having just read the new Banks/Carter book, I think the Doncaster locos might have been concentrated on the section south to King's Cross. Banks/Carter emphasise how the services to Leeds were often heavily portioned, Doncaster being the first place where the portions started splitting off (typically Hull), hence a heavy train south of Doncaster demanding a pacific if (expensive) double-heading was to be avoided. RCTS Vol.2A also has some useful snippets re loco workings. All fascinating stuff! Thanks 4479. I'm just looking through the WTT for direct Newcastle Expresses terminating at Yorkwhere a Pacific would have to come off. Of course we can't rule out an Atlantic on these workings. It would seem from what you are saying that it maybe the Grantham Pacifics, that were the most common foreign type to turn up at York. Without having to trail through my Yeadon No 1, what A3s (rather than A1s) were sheded at Grantham in 1938? Wish there was a shed book for the pre war period (plenty for the BR period!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Here is an interesting one. Two express passengers in the early hours of the morning arrive at York within 15 minutes of each other. Both could be sleepers I guess as both originated in Edinburgh and are destined for King's Cross. The first train arrives at York at 3.11 and departs at 3.17 The second train arrives at York at 3.27 and departs at 3.33 Both in York for 6 minutes, is this ample time for a loco change, or should I be looking at over 7 minutes as sufficient time for a change of engine? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brass0four Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Here is an interesting one. Two express passengers in the early hours of the morning arrive at York within 15 minutes of each other. Both could be sleepers I guess as both originated in Edinburgh and are destined for King's Cross. The first train arrives at York at 3.11 and departs at 3.17 The second train arrives at York at 3.27 and departs at 3.33 Both in York for 6 minutes, is this ample time for a loco change, or should I be looking at over 7 minutes as sufficient time for a change of engine? I must find that book! If I recall correctly the Newcastle change-over was around five minutes - swift, indeed. More anon, when I can verify it. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I'm pretty sure the GC used to do it in 4, Tom, so 7 should be more than enough if they were slick. At 03:11 there's not going to be a huge amount of station traffic to interfere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Thanks Jonathan A lot of times at York appear to be 6-7 minute stops, which would seem ample time for a change of loco, as you say the GC did it in 4, and the Newcastle crews could do it in 5 according to Tony. I also missed on the other page that LNER4479 had said a Grantham turn off York shed arrived at 12.19 and departed at 12.25..... 6 minutes once again. Anything shorter than 5 minutes, I will put down as not changing locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Yep, I concur with Jonathan. 4 minutes seems to have been a generally accepted minimum time for a loco change. As if to prove the point, I once read somewhere that 4 minutes was allowed at Salisbury when changing locos on West of England expresses - and the local men used to pride themselves in doing it in 2! Worth noting that adoption of the buckeye coupling by the LNER gave them a notable advantage when it came to loco changes. (Provided the driver was able to pull up 'sharp' with the couplings compressed that is! If his mate couldn't get the buckeye to disengage with the chain then time would be lost winding the loco into reverse, setting back ever so, then winding the loco back into forward... York actually must have been more of a difficult place for this being on a sharp curve as there would be less give in the couplings... nerd alert at this point methinks so I'll shut up!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I suppose my next question is, is the WTT designed so that the times at stations have loco changes taken into account depending on station. Or do they just set a time generically at the large stations, and then it's down to loco rosters whether they choose to change locos. That probably doesn't make sense at all! What I mean is....if there is a time of 6-7 minutes a York, is that pretty much guaranteed that a loco change took place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 23, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 23, 2013 I suppose my next question is, is the WTT designed so that the times at stations have loco changes taken into account depending on station. Or do they just set a time generically at the large stations, and then it's down to loco rosters whether they choose to change locos. That probably doesn't make sense at all! What I mean is....if there is a time of 6-7 minutes a York, is that pretty much guaranteed that a loco change took place. Not necessarily Tom - longish stops seemed to be a feature of York in the days I can remember and were used for all sorts of things including attaching/detaching portions, changing engines (with or without the portions), or even wheel tapping or attaching/detaching vans. Basically the timing would be increased to allow for whatever activity was intended on that train but York would never have been a quick stop on any through train back then I suspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 If a loco change is scheduled, it has to take place to ensure the loco remains in its' diagram. To use the example above, if your Grantham Pacific doesn't go back to KX for the next morning's stopper, Top Shed have to send something else out which means they may be short of a loco for a later turn. The WTT simply determines at what time these things happen and the interval between them. If a change was regularly over time, causing lateness, then they'd investigate the causes and if necessary tweak the WTT to allow for it. Ed - as Mike has pointed out, attaching/detaching also has to take place and a longer stopover might be for those purposes. What I don't believe they did in those days was build in 'recovery time' because they didn't expect to be late and did something about it if they were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Deary me! So basically at the moment, I'm just guessing really. Without knowing the rosters, I'm not going to be able to work out what locos are coming off and on shed, apart from the home fleet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Have you looked at any of the XpressBooks titles, Tom? They contain that kind of information although I'm not sure if they've done York and I'd be pretty sure they don't go back as far as 1938. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Actually something I do have....which probably would be useful, is the 1952 Loco passenger movements for the Mainline between York and Edinburgh plus the 1949 loco passenger movements for York and District. Would the easiest thing be to use that as a basis, substituting certain classes of locos and tweaking certain train times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 This is what I had in mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 but York would never have been a quick stop on any through train back then I suspect. ...with the notable exception of the northbound Coronation! (allowed 3 minutes, 6.37-6.40). Do you think that there would have also been an element of contingency time built into a stop at such a strategic place as York, Mike? Also, York was a notorious place for steam-hauled trains getting under way northbound after a station stop. Many's the tale of a pacific having to set back and have another go, sometimes 2 or 3 times (back to time lost operating the reverser again) along with scary tales of uncontrollable slips. One wonders if the schedulers simply built all that into the timetable, based on experience? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 This is what I had in mind. Yes I have that one, but I don't find it the easiest to understand. It includes an example of a mid 1950s working timetable, plus the two items i've attached, they aren't very clear to understand and I don't think relate to actual locomotive movement on and off trains. As I say, I do have the locomotive passenger workings for the late 40's and early 50's from the NERA, which could be adapted for 1938. Anybody fancy coming over for an afternoon to help go through this! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 This is the material I do have, which is what I was thinking could possibly be adapted. Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Tom, I love what you are attempting. It's like being at a theatre and being behind the scenes, watching the activity in the wings, changing rooms and green room, while the dramatic action (the actual trains) is supposed to be on the stage proper. I'm sure there was a play based on this scenario - Tom Stoppard possibly - with actors re-emerging from the invisible stage and then commenting on life, the universe, everything. Does anyone remember this? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Tom, I love what you are attempting. It's like being at a theatre and being behind the scenes, watching the activity in the wings, changing rooms and green room, while the dramatic action (the actual trains) is supposed to be on the stage proper. You know what Ian, that is a very good way of describing the whole thing! You are seeing what the general public didn't/want to see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gresley Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 This is the material I do have, which is what I was thinking could possibly be adapted. IMG_5178.jpg IMG_5179.jpg IMG_5180.jpg IMG_5181.jpg Thoughts? Hi 2750, PLease can you give me details of these pubs, including publisher. I have the Xpress Publishing book (York - Newcastle) but the others interest me very much. Thanks, gresley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clecklewyke Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I'm sure there was a play based on this scenario - Tom Stoppard possibly - with actors re-emerging from the invisible stage and then commenting on life, the universe, everything. Does anyone remember this? Tom, I'm growing old. The play I was thinking of was "Six Actors in Search of a Director" by Steven Berkoff. I should have remembered - my daughter was in it! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Tom, I'm growing old. The play I was thinking of was "Six Actors in Search of a Director" by Steven Berkoff. I should have remembered - my daughter was in it! Ian Epic memory failure there Ian! Right time for a cup of tea, and see if any of these loco workings in 1952/1949 are anything close to what the Working Time Table says for 1938. Wish me luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 23, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 23, 2013 ...with the notable exception of the northbound Coronation! (allowed 3 minutes, 6.37-6.40). Do you think that there would have also been an element of contingency time built into a stop at such a strategic place as York, Mike? Also, York was a notorious place for steam-hauled trains getting under way northbound after a station stop. Many's the tale of a pacific having to set back and have another go, sometimes 2 or 3 times (back to time lost operating the reverser again) along with scary tales of uncontrollable slips. One wonders if the schedulers simply built all that into the timetable, based on experience? I doubt if contingency time was built in as it wasn't normal practice back then and it does make timetabling difficult but it really depends on local practice and what it was at any particular time as train planning is built round a set of 'rules' to ensure consistency (or it should be!) but they weren't always written down in earlier times. This is the material I do have, which is what I was thinking could possibly be adapted. IMG_5178.jpg IMG_5179.jpg IMG_5180.jpg IMG_5181.jpg Thoughts? What more could you need (the freight working and local passenger?). If you have the engine working you are 90% of the way there although you only have 'main line' and that was but a small slice of York in those days. However do the diagrams identify classes of engines working through? That could be a stumbling block but at least you know, for examples that a Gateshead engine came on shed at 11.27 Mon -Sat and that the men who brought it on went back off at 12.32 with a Heaton engine to work a 12.47 departure (12.54 SO) back to the the north. If you have the train graph for the same date you can possibly identify the trains from it but I suspect a WTT would be more useful for that purpose. So there should be enough there, judging by that example, to at least identify the mainline workings on/off York shed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 2750 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Local passenger is covered in York and District. The diagrams do identify the types of classes too. The stumbling block is the dates are for 1952 and 1949 and I'm working on my 1938 Time Table. So your thoughts that these documents are compatible with the 1938 WTT Mike? As for freight, I've one for the Darlington area in the early 50s alas not York, but using the WTT shows a lot of stuff coming off Shed. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.