YORK 'Leaman Road' MPD - LNER 1938

[Guest 2750]

Hmmm, looking through the Passenger Loco movements, I'm struggling to see it matching the 1938 WTT.....sigh....

 

I think a rest is in order!

[The Stationmaster]

Local passenger is covered in York and District. The diagrams do identify the types of classes too. The stumbling block is the dates are for 1952 and 1949 and I'm working on my 1938 Time Table. So your thoughts that these documents are compatible with the 1938 WTT Mike?

 

As for freight, I've one for the Darlington area in the early 50s alas not York, but using the WTT shows a lot of stuff coming off Shed.

 

Cheers

Matching pre & post war can be very difficult - as you're finding.  Some basic patterns might be similar but that's probably about it as trains were decelerated post-war and freight working might have changed a lot.  I think the starting point is to search out timetables for the period you are modelling and then try the pattern of the post-war engine working to see if it makes sense.  i suspect that what you might find for York is a similar balance of work between depots and you could then adapt the post-war details to the pre-war times.

 

Simple example let's assume that pre-war Gateshead had 4 passenger turns per day which turned round at York and they represented X% of the total number of passenger trains between the two places.  Post-war the number of trains will probably be different but the percentage share of the work is likely to be similar and Gateshead will still have around X%. Might be worth giving it a try?

[Guest 2750]

Thanks Mike, that is very helpful.

What I'm doing first, is looking at trains that terminated at York. At the moment I've about 3 or 4 Newcastle Trains, which terminate at York, which is good enough for me that the loco comes off the train and goes on Shed. Another train I'm looking at is the Southampton-Glasgow. I found a photo in the Steve Banks book LNER Passenger Trains & Formations of a D11 approaching York with said train. From what else I've read, the loco will come off at York, like most cross country trains, before a Pacific will take it northwards (most likely Gateshead or Heaton).

 

I'm also using the Passenger Loco Working Books for 1952 to help give an idea of which sheds tended to have locos coming on Shed at York. The notable three are Heaton, Gateshead and Grantham....plus Doncaster actually. I would like a couple of Doncaster Pacifics to come on Shed and be turned (2750 and 4470). I'm sure I can come up for a reason.

 

I think it's a case of slowly working through and digesting in small amounts.

 

I really appreciate all this help gents. It's making things for myself, a lot easier.

[landscapes]

Hi Tom

 

Are you still having a new engine shed being built for you, good to see your thread going again.

 

Regards

 

David

[Guest 2750]

Hi Tom

Are you still having a new engine shed being built for you, good to see your thread going again.

Regards

David

Hi David

 

Sadly I felt it was going to push my finances to the limit, so I've decided next year

I will have a go at building it myself.

 

On another note, I realise I can have a Top Shed loco on York Shed, because of the 'Scarborough Flyer'. According to the Steve Banks book, the pacific would come off at York before a York loco (possibly D49) took it onwards to the coast.

 

Apparently the Scarborough Flyer was the fastest LNER train after the Streamliners, running non stop between Kings Cross and York.

[Brass0four]

Thanks Mike, that is very helpful.

What I'm doing first, is looking at trains that terminated at York. At the moment I've about 3 or 4 Newcastle Trains, which terminate at York, which is good enough for me that the loco comes off the train and goes on Shed. Another train I'm looking at is the Southampton-Glasgow. I found a photo in the Steve Banks book LNER Passenger Trains & Formations of a D11 approaching York with said train. From what else I've read, the loco will come off at York, like most cross country trains, before a Pacific will take it northwards (most likely Gateshead or Heaton).

 

I'm also using the Passenger Loco Working Books for 1952 to help give an idea of which sheds tended to have locos coming on Shed at York. The notable three are Heaton, Gateshead and Grantham....plus Doncaster actually. I would like a couple of Doncaster Pacifics to come on Shed and be turned (2750 and 4470). I'm sure I can come up for a reason.

 

I think it's a case of slowly working through and digesting in small amounts.

 

I really appreciate all this help gents. It's making things for myself, a lot easier.

Hi Tom,

 

You're on a wonderful adventure. Take your time and enjoy it! ;-)

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

(For me, I'm definitely doing Copely Hill )

[Brass0four]

Hi Tom,

 

You're on a wonderful adventure. Take your time and enjoy it! ;-)

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

(For me, I'm definitely doing Copely Hill )

I wish I didn't keep spelling it wrong! L8r ;-)

[LNER4479]

As a further (and I think fun!) suggestion to help with your research, if you find out (Yeadons) which locos were shedded where, then have a look through as many picture books as possible and try and match the loco with the train (the captions in the Banks/Carter book are very good in that regard). Once you discover that a certain train always had a Grantham (say) loco at the head, heading south from York, then you're on to a pretty safe bet that that must have been a diagrammed working - simples! (Do watch out for the 'rogues' though!)

 

You're quite right about the Scarborough Flier (note the deliberately incorrect spelling, as the book highlights in the pre-war era!). Only loaded to 7 vehicles so as it could achieve the timings.

 

It doesn't come as too much of a surprise to discover that you've struggled to match pre- and post-war. From what I read, the eastern side of the country had suffered as much as anywhere during the war and there were an overwhelming number of temporary repairs (with attendant speed restrictions) to the infrastructure of the railway that needed proper attention once the war ended before the East Coast route got be got back into anything like pre-war condition (which is what Mike is referring to when he talks about trains being decelerated post-war). By the time this was got on top of, it was well into BR days.

 

The other significant factor was that, due to lack of maintenance, locos were in poor condition (even the newer ones) and hence unreliable. Therefore, loco changing was actually increased simply to keep the service going (it had been reduced during the 1930's, as more and more new pacifics became available). The new Peppercorn A1s must have provided welcome relief in this regard but, overall, it wasn't until 1956/1957 that genuine accelerations were implemented (and the degree of loco changing was correspondingly reduced). By that stage, the infernal combustion engine machines were just round the corner...

[durham light infantry]

Tom

 

Slightly o/t, but just been to the exhibition by the Guild of Railway Artists at Locomotion. There are a number of pictures of LNER locos in transition to British Railways, including the interior of York shed circa 1949/50. But one that really stood out for me was one of Night Hawk in LNER livery northbound alongside the North Sea at dusk, stunning.

 

The exhibition is free and runs until 6th October.

 

Mike

[Guest 2750]

I wish I didn't keep spelling it wrong! L8r ;-)

 

Hi Tony

 

Simon Martin, who was a former member of this forum, has written a children's book about the exploits of the locos that worked there post war. Simon has a keen interest in Copley Hill due to his Grandfather being a driver there. Here is his website and I'm sure If you contact him through there he will be able to give you some help.

 

http://www.britishrailwaystories.com/

[Guest 2750]

As a further (and I think fun!) suggestion to help with your research, if you find out (Yeadons) which locos were shedded where, then have a look through as many picture books as possible and try and match the loco with the train (the captions in the Banks/Carter book are very good in that regard). Once you discover that a certain train always had a Grantham (say) loco at the head, heading south from York, then you're on to a pretty safe bet that that must have been a diagrammed working - simples! (Do watch out for the 'rogues' though!)

 

You're quite right about the Scarborough Flier (note the deliberately incorrect spelling, as the book highlights in the pre-war era!). Only loaded to 7 vehicles so as it could achieve the timings.

 

It doesn't come as too much of a surprise to discover that you've struggled to match pre- and post-war. From what I read, the eastern side of the country had suffered as much as anywhere during the war and there were an overwhelming number of temporary repairs (with attendant speed restrictions) to the infrastructure of the railway that needed proper attention once the war ended before the East Coast route got be got back into anything like pre-war condition (which is what Mike is referring to when he talks about trains being decelerated post-war). By the time this was got on top of, it was well into BR days.

 

The other significant factor was that, due to lack of maintenance, locos were in poor condition (even the newer ones) and hence unreliable. Therefore, loco changing was actually increased simply to keep the service going (it had been reduced during the 1930's, as more and more new pacifics became available). The new Peppercorn A1s must have provided welcome relief in this regard but, overall, it wasn't until 1956/1957 that genuine accelerations were implemented (and the degree of loco changing was correspondingly reduced). By that stage, the infernal combustion engine machines were just round the corner...

 

Cheers 4497.

That is very useful advice, the Steve Banks is helping me far more that I thought, as I hadn't realised he often explains where locos come off and on trains.

[Guest 2750]

Tom

 

Slightly o/t, but just been to the exhibition by the Guild of Railway Artists at Locomotion. There are a number of pictures of LNER locos in transition to British Railways, including the interior of York shed circa 1949/50. But one that really stood out for me was one of Night Hawk in LNER livery northbound alongside the North Sea at dusk, stunning.

 

The exhibition is free and runs until 6th October.

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike, how are you doing?

 

That is very useful and sound right up my street. I will probably head up to Locomotion first week of September after the kids have gone back to school (and just before I commence teaching again in the second week!)

[Guest 2750]

 

 

You're quite right about the Scarborough Flier (note the deliberately incorrect spelling, as the book highlights in the pre-war era!). Only loaded to 7 vehicles so as it could achieve the timings.

 

I wouldn't mind....I was just reading the about the flipping things...pay better attention next time Foster! 

Out of interest, would the loco have come on Shed with the headboard on? I have a photo of 60526 moving off York Shed in the early 50s with the headboard on.

 

Does anyone do pre war headboards? I've only ever seen post war one in 4mm.

[jwealleans]

Does anyone do pre war headboards

I don't believe so, but they were almost all hand painted, black lettering on a white background. Easy enough to knock one up in this computerised age.

[landscapes]

I wouldn't mind....I was just reading the about the flipping things...pay better attention next time Foster! 

Out of interest, would the loco have come on Shed with the headboard on? I have a photo of 60526 moving off York Shed in the early 50s with the headboard on.

 

Does anyone do pre war headboards? I've only ever seen post war one in 4mm.

Hi Tom

 

Regarding Pre-War headboards have you spoken to Gary at 247 Developements, he is very helpful.

 

He may be able to make them for you or may know someone who does supply them, if not how about Jim at Modelmaster he may also be able to advise you.

 

Regards

 

David

[Guest 2750]

Gents, I've found these

 

http://www.sankeyscenics.co.uk/#/pre-war-trains-home-page/4577828056]

 

 

They do a Scarborough Flyer sheet for post war, but it includes the older Scarborough Flier version too, plus a load of pre war head boards.

I know they aren't etched, but as I'm doing the older types, I doubt it matters.

 

The next question is, would the loco come on shed with it's headboard on.

[chrisf]

I can't speak for the LNER but on the Western the answer would be 'yes'.  Where else would headboards be kept but somewhere in the shed?

 

Chris

[Guest 2750]

I can't speak for the LNER but on the Western the answer would be 'yes'.  Where else would headboards be kept but somewhere in the shed?

 

Chris

 

That is a very good point Chris. My only thought was, as the train changes locos at York for Scarborough, would they change over the headboard. I seem to remember reading though that sheds had multiple headboards, and I have an early 50s photo of 'SUGAR PALM' coming off Shed with the 'SCARBOROUGH FLYER' headboard in place.

 

Cheers

[clecklewyke]

Tom,

 

It occurs to me that there was a regular turn from the Midland of a Beyer Garratt. Will we see one at 50A?

 

(Before we do at Clecklewyke!)

 

Ian

 

(I thought of this because your thread was immediately above the Heljan B-G thread.)

[Worsdell forever]

Tom,

 

It occurs to me that there was a regular turn from the Midland of a Beyer Garratt. Will we see one at 50A?

 

(Before we do at Clecklewyke!)

 

Ian

 

I think it brought ironstone, there's a photo in one of the wagon books, Goods wagons in colour?

[chrisf]

. I seem to remember reading though that sheds had multiple headboards ...

 

Agiain, I can't speak for the LNER but there are any number of pics of two locos side by side at Cardiff General, each bearing a Red Dragon headboard.  In that instance there must have been three headboards since the train started at Carmarthen and reversed at Swansea.  The engine which took the Dragon forward came off at Cardiff.

 

Chris

[Guest 2750]

clecklewyke, on 25 Aug 2013 - 15:08, said:

 

Tom,

 

It occurs to me that there was a regular turn from the Midland of a Beyer Garratt. Will we see one at 50A?

 

(Before we do at Clecklewyke!)

 

Ian

 

(I thought of this because your thread was immediately above the Heljan B-G thread.)

Worsdell forever, on 25 Aug 2013 - 16:37, said:

 

I think it brought ironstone, there's a photo in one of the wagon books, Goods wagons in colour?

As far as I know, in Grouping and BR days until they were scrapped in the mid 1950s, Garrats used to work as far as York coming up the LMS lines and then going on to the S&K to York. I think as Paul says, they were ironstone, destined for the furnaces of Teesside. I've just looked at the WTT and I'm struggling to find a train that matches. There is a Class B goods (25mph max running) in the early hours of the morning which comes off LMS lines at Normanton and terminating at York...no mention of the train going on to Teesside.

 

Would this coincide? Other than that I'm struggling to see a freight off the LMS that would match.

[Brass0four]

Hi Tony

 

Simon Martin, who was a former member of this forum, has written a children's book about the exploits of the locos that worked there post war. Simon has a keen interest in Copley Hill due to his Grandfather being a driver there. Here is his website and I'm sure If you contact him through there he will be able to give you some help.

 

http://www.britishrailwaystories.com/

Thanks, Tom. Very much appreciated! I'll enjoy pursuing this link.

 

In the meantime, I have gathered a few excellent images from flickr. I'd like your permission to post just one? - an image that has me particularly enthused. (I do have permission to copy for personal and non-financial use.)

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[Guest 2750]

No problem Tony. I'm sure it will be of LNER heritage!

[westerner]

Tom I found Sankey Scenics very helpful. He made up my South Devon boards for me, based on the Torbay Express ones, and from point of contact and saying what I wanted to delivery was five days. Excellent service!