Bachmann TPO Coach

[brossard]

Having missed the limited edition of this coach about a year ago, I am interested in the TPO sorting coach that is imminent. Some questions:

 

1: There were trains that were dedicated to carrying only the mails. How might one replicate these? I'm thinking that the sorting coach (van?) was not the only type of vehicle. I imagine that other vehicles in the train might include full brakes and GUVs. Since GUVs were not gangwayed these would be used for storage only.

 

2: Were there any examples of ordinary passenger trains (stopping trains) including TPO vehicles?

 

Expresses (Irish Mail for one) could include 2 TPO vehicles I believe.

 

Hoping that we can fill in the blanks.

 

John

[Downendian]

From the RMweb 2007-9 site-I posted this:

 

garyeagger wrote:

Does anyone know how many of these would have run together in the same train at any one time, BR Blue/Grey period?

 

 

From my coaching stock records

11th July 1977

Bristol Parkway

81452+81463+86912+80425+80360+80411+80357+26061+86236

BG-BG-GUV+POT-POS-POT-POS-SK-GUV

 

Penzance to Newcastle service I believe

 

Neil

[brossard]

Thanks Neil. I should have mentioned that I do the early 60's. Is the Bachmann coach POT or POS? (I would guess POS). Wikipedia indicates that POTs were built in 1968, what would have been used before that? SK is corridor second - I assume this is for crew rest. I see the two frontmost BGs precede the GUV. This would isolate them from the train.

 

John

[brossard]

I've been having a discussion about this offline. Someone suggested that we replicate the mail train that was robbed in 1963. One of the vehicles mentioned was "High Value Package" coach which contained the loot. Further research indicates this might be a "High Security Letter Mail Van" or "HMSV". Anyone have any pictures or knowledge of these?

 

The original train was 12 coaches which is too long for the layout. I'm thinking that a reasonable train would be:

 

BG, HMSV, POS, BG, POS, BG, SK, GUV

 

Wondering if a Thompson BG might stand in for HMSV?

 

John

[Gwiwer]

Mail trains which included TPO (Travelling Post Office) vehicles were formed according to demand on the route they operated. Thus the London - Glasgow / Edinburgh trains conveyed a larger number of TPO vans than the London - Holyhead "Irish Mail" or the Barrow-in-Furness - Euston service which had just one and was one of a tiny number of such trains also conveying passenger accommodation.

 

Sorters worked in the POS vehicles as modelled by Bachmann with mail stowed in bags in adjacent POT vehicles either before or after sorting. Most - probably all - TPO workings also included a number of BG vehicles at both ends which were typically used to accommodate a train guard and sometimes a few parcels but not a lot else. I believe some TPO services may have also conveyed newspapers.

 

In its last years the Bristol - Penzance TPO was often (not always) 2xBG + POT + POS + POT + 2xBG. In model form I represent that with 3 Bachmann POS vehicles.

 

Within the fairly small number of such coaches actually built there was some variety and certain types were only found on particular routes. Vans 80300 / 1 were for example normally confined to the Whitehaven train, one working in each direction each night. BPOT vans (which had a brake van for the train guard fitted within a POT) were only found on London - Glasgow runs IIRC.

 

Parallel topic of interest here : http://www.rmweb.co....-tpo-formation/

[brossard]

Hi Gwiwer, interesting points. You mention POTs in the formation but from what I can glean from the web, these were made from around 1968 (confirmed somewhat by the only livery available for these from Bachmann is the later one). I'm after doing something earlier in the green era, around 1962 (and I quite like the pre-war style). Failing info to the contrary, I might extrapolate that the stowage vehicles in 1962 could have been BGs.

 

The response in post #2 mentions GUVs for a 1977 formation which I thought odd because they don't have gangways. These could carry newspapers I suppose.

 

I was particularly curious about the HSMV.

 

Perhaps the formation might have a BG on the end or even a BSK instead of a GUV.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Gwiwer]

I'm not so sure about the use of a high security van in the 1963 incident. I have never researched it in that much depth. I know such vehicles have existed and their fact of their existence and vehicle details have sometimes been suppressed by the authorities with good reason.

 

High security letter mail vans in later years were converted from regular BG vehicles and renumbered into the 944xx and 945xx series, originally 80xxx. There were also high security GUV conversions numbered 941xx originally 86xxx.

 

A majority of all the Mk1-style TPO vehicles was built from 1968 including POS, POT and BPOT types. There were some earlier POS vans with 80300-16 dating from 1959-61 along with POTs 80400-2 and 80403-14 being conversions from 1959-built BSK vehicles. Prior to the 1968 batches earlier Company coaches would have been in use AFAIK.

 

GUVs as you say do not have through gangways and when included in a train they must either be at one or other end if access is required through the rest of the train. If such access is not required however they can be marshalled as required and often were. A typical parcels (not TPO) train of that time might have an apparently random assortment of BG, GUV and even other types such as the 4-wheeled CCT in the formation.

[chrisf]

The first Mk 1 TPO vehicles were built for the Paddington - Penzance service in 1959. There were enough for one 6 vehicle set in service each way and one set's worth of spares. Each set comprised 2 POSs with net and traductor arms [drawn from W80300-5], one POS without net and traductor arms [drawn from W80306-8], two POTs with net and traductor arms [drawn from W80400-2] and two POT brakes without net and traductor arms [drawn from 80450-5]. To these vehicles were attached five Siphons G destined for Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter, Torrington and Bristol.

 

Other POSs entered service circa 1961: M80309-14, SC80315-7 and E80318. All but the Scottish vehicles had nets and traductor arms. I seem to recall that the vehicles involved in the Great Train Robbery in 1963 were not the regular set and therefore not as highly secure as they might have been.

 

Chris

[ess1uk]

http://www.nvr.org.uk/MailByRail/tpointroduction.php

try here for info.

[brossard]

Thanks for the input guys. I've been doing some research offline. The Wikipedia entry for the 1963 robbery includes this:

 

“The Royal Mail train:

At 6:50 PM on Wednesday 7 August 1963 the travelling post office (TPO) "Up Special" train set off from Glasgow Central Station, Scotland en-route to Euston Station in London. The train was hauled by an English Electric Type 4 (later Class 40) diesel-electric locomotive numbered at the time as D326 (later renumbered 40126). The train consisted of 12 carriages and carried 72 Post Office staff who sorted mail.

The mail was loaded on the train at Glasgow and also during station stops en-route, as well as from line side collection points where local post office staff would hang mail sacks on elevated track-side hooks which were caught by nets deployed by the on-board staff. Sorted mail on the train could also be dropped-off at the same time. This process of exchange allowed mail to be distributed locally without delaying the train with more frequent station stops.

The second carriage behind the engine was known as the HVP (High Value Package) coach where registered mail was sorted and this contained valuables including large quantities of money, registered parcels and packages. Usually the value of these items would have been in the region of £300,000, but because there had been a Bank Holiday weekend in Scotland, the total on the day of the robbery was £2.6 million—worth a little over £40 million in 2010.[9]”

The HVP piqued my interest. I speculate that it could have been an old Bullion Van. This link shows a 1907 built example:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrnpccs It is #10 in the set.

 

I also found some good pictures of the various diagrams here:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brtpo

 

Getting back to the Bachmann offering for a moment. It is numbered W80300 making it the first Diag. 720 built and a POS. As built in the PO red livery, it surely would have had traductor gear.

 

Referring to the link, W80306 was to Diag. 721 and was a POT as Chris mentions. It doesn't seem to even have provision for traductor gear. I concur that most BR TPO coaches were built later on in the decade, as evidenced by the other pictures in the set.

 

The whole exercise of trying to recreate a typical all mail train is starting to look expensive and labour intensive.

 

I will add the following which gives the determined modeller access to most TPO vehicles pre and post nationalisation:

 

http://www.247developments.co.uk/tpos.html

 

One other point is that a Sound On Board Class 40 is on the way.

 

http://www.ehattons.com/23507/Bachmann_UK_32_480DS_Class_40_diesel_D211_Mauretania_new_chassis_with_indicator_discs_in_BR_green_DCC_Sound_on_board_/StockDetail.aspx

 

I have some navel gazing and tooth sucking to do.

 

John

[rowanj]

I'm trying to put together a TPO for early 1960,s and am reasonably clear about POS and POT requirements. I think I also need a pair of BG,s but am unclear of the correct livery. Would they be usually normal BR Maroon at that point, or were they in Royal Mail red?.Any advice gratefully received.

[ColinK]

Hi, this thread has got me curious, does anyone know what the formation was of the Barrow - Euston TPO, and what was the motive power in blue diesel days?

[Gwiwer]

The Barrow - Euston train hasn't run for quite a number of years - it was one of the early casualties of overnight service reductions.

 

The only time I travelled on it the formation, to the best of my recollection, included open and corridor passenger vehicles and a sleeping car (second class only) plus a few vans one of which would have been a TPO van almost certainly a POS.

 

It's too long ago now to have an accurate memory and I no longer have the notes from those days but it wasn't a particularly long train off Barrow and I seem to recall a thump as more vehicles (vans, probably) were added at Crewe which is where the loco-change took place from diesel to electric. Class 40 to Crewe then an AC electric probably an 81 or 85.  The other interesting fact about the train was its headcode.  Being the first working of the day into London (at around 03.00) it carried 1A00.

 

If I were asked to hazard a guess as to the formation it might be along the lines of BSK-CK-TSO-SLEP-BG-POS-BG though that is pure speculation based on a fading memory and a very tiring overnight trip with little sleep; being somewhat impecunious and somewhat railway-curious I opted for the seats and found them to be full of well-oiled and very talkative people!

[Gwiwer]

I'm trying to put together a TPO for early 1960,s and am reasonably clear about POS and POT requirements. I think I also need a pair of BG,s but am unclear of the correct livery. Would they be usually normal BR Maroon at that point, or were they in Royal Mail red?.Any advice gratefully received.

 

Coaching stock maroon for the BGs.  The Post Office vehicles stood out in their bright red livery back in the day.

[rowanj]

Thanks. This makes life simpler.

[robertcwp]

Hi, this thread has got me curious, does anyone know what the formation was of the Barrow - Euston TPO, and what was the motive power in blue diesel days?

The only Barrow-Euston train I can find in the 1975 marshalling book is this one, with the POS attached at Preston:

 

Barrow-Euston-1975 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Gwiwer]

Thanks Robert.

 

My trip would have been 1974 so the working might well have been similar.  One point of interest is the van from the Cumbrain coast "received off 17.52 from Workington".  My itinerary was Carlisle - Workington - Barrow - Euston and would have used a train from Workington at or very close to 17.52 but which did not convey a van.  It was a Cumbrian standard 2-car DMU and offered a swift 10-minute connection at Barrow into the up Euston.  Unless there was a parcels working just in front of it but I don't recall one having had to wait an hour for the coastal connection.

 

The seated stock accords closely with my distant memory however.

[robertcwp]

Thanks Robert.

 

My trip would have been 1974 so the working might well have been similar.  One point of interest is the van from the Cumbrain coast "received off 17.52 from Workington".  My itinerary was Carlisle - Workington - Barrow - Euston and would have used a train from Workington at or very close to 17.52 but which did not convey a van.  It was a Cumbrian standard 2-car DMU and offered a swift 10-minute connection at Barrow into the up Euston.  Unless there was a parcels working just in front of it but I don't recall one having had to wait an hour for the coastal connection.

 

The seated stock accords closely with my distant memory however.

May 1974:

Barrow-Euston-1974 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Downendian]

BPOT vans (which had a brake van for the train guard fitted within a POT) were only found on London - Glasgow runs IIRC. Parallel topic of interest here : http://www.rmweb.co....-tpo-formation/

Some B.POT vans were allocated to the WR in the 1970s and were often seen in the Penzance-Newcastle service.

Edit : invicta are to release a model of the B.POT/NUS

http://www.invictamodelrail.com/39-440z-exclusive-Bachmann-br-mk1-bpot-stowage-van-1960s-post-office-red-preserved-livery-pre-order-tbc-3134-p.asp

Strange that the more abundant POT wasn't chosen instead , but I've bought a couple of DC kits models to fill that gap

Neil

[giz]

Some B.POT vans were allocated to the WR in the 1970s and were often seen in the Penzance-Newcastle service.

Edit : invicta are to release a model of the B.POT/NUS

http://www.invictamodelrail.com/39-440z-exclusive-Bachmann-br-mk1-bpot-stowage-van-1960s-post-office-red-preserved-livery-pre-order-tbc-3134-p.asp

Strange that the more abundant POT wasn't chosen instead , but I've bought a couple of DC kits models to fill that gap

Neil

Haven't Bachmann announced the POT as a standard release?

 

It's not on their current website list but a lot of things have disappeared since the price rises were announced.

 

Edit: Yes, the POT was announced in 2013

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69149-Bachmann-announcements-20134/

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect what might be in mind for the Cumbrian coast is the Whitehaven - Preston TPO - into which I posted a  letter at Grange-Over-Sands back in 1965 (alas part of the postmark on it is indistinct).

 

This refers -

http://www.trainweb.org/drs/tpo.htm

[Downendian]

Haven't Bachmann announced the POT as a standard release?It's not on their current website list but a lot of things have disappeared since the price rises were announced.Edit: Yes, the POT was announced in 2013http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69149-Bachmann-announcements-20134/

Indeed they have! My mistake I'd bought the later diagram DC kits model POS.

 

My RCTS 1978 coaching stock book has W80450-80455 B.POT of which W80450 at least was seen in the Penzance-Newcastle consist, late 1970s.

Neil

[ColinK]

Many thanks for all the info on the Barrow - Euston; what a really interesting train with the various portions being added.

 

The maximum train length I can run on my model railway is just 3 coaches. But by 'shrinking' the Barrow working I could run a overnight service comprising sleeping car, BSK and Royal Mail coach. As well as the Red TPO coach adding some colour, it will be interesting to shunt.

 

I've also found a photo in 'The railways of Carnforth', of a Barrow - Euston daytime service near Carnforth hauled by a class 50.

 

Cheers

[ColinK]

I've just finished reading 'The Railways of Carnforth' and the final chapter has more interesting info.

 

First, it says there was a long standing Whitehaven - Huddersfield TPO. Unusually one set of stock made the out and back journey, departing Whitehaven at 1850 and returning from Huddersfield at 0105. It last ran on 28th September 1991. Motive power was usually a class 31/4 with 47/4 substutions. No mention of the formation.

 

It adds more on the Barrow - Euston sleeper, saying it was withdrawn on 10th May 1983, coinciding with the replacement of Mk1 sleepers with Mk3's. It continues to say that a Barrow - Euston sleeper was reintroduced in May 1987 with mk3 stock, with a southbound train only (no mention of how the sleeping cars got back to Barrow). The service was withdrawn in May 1990.

[GordonC]

I've just finished reading 'The Railways of Carnforth' and the final chapter has more interesting info.

 

First, it says there was a long standing Whitehaven - Huddersfield TPO. Unusually one set of stock made the out and back journey, departing Whitehaven at 1850 and returning from Huddersfield at 0105. It last ran on 28th September 1991. Motive power was usually a class 31/4 with 47/4 substutions. No mention of the formation.

 

It adds more on the Barrow - Euston sleeper, saying it was withdrawn on 10th May 1983, coinciding with the replacement of Mk1 sleepers with Mk3's. It continues to say that a Barrow - Euston sleeper was reintroduced in May 1987 with mk3 stock, with a southbound train only (no mention of how the sleeping cars got back to Barrow). The service was withdrawn in May 1990.

 

There are quite a few pictures of that TPO on the net with 31/4s and I think it tended to be one POS and a couple of BGs