Which is the most user-friendly DCC controller ?

[buggerlugs]

Hi Brian, I think the "try before you buy" route is the way to go. I for one jumped onto the DCC band wagon, paid out a lot of money for a system that a couple of years later hadn't enough functions to cope with sound,Dooh! I was in a well known shop to try and find out a bit more about sound systems and was I'm afraid to say "blown away" with his "demo sound layout" and nearly taken in by his insistent sales patter that THE system HE sold was by far the best there was out there and not to bother to even look at anything else! After escaping from said shop I went away and read a few reviews and came up with a short list of three systems I would like to "try". I then visited a certain DCC "specialist" shop were I was allowed to try all the systems on my short list without any pressure as to which one they thought was the best and with no pressure to buy. I was given lots of advice about all the systems and really left to make my own mind up which system suited me best. I spent the morning there "playing" with the different systems but still didn't commit to buy any and went home, without being made to feel I'd been a nuisance. I went home read a few more reviews and then went back about 10 days later and handed over my money. I'm really glad I wasn't taken in by the pressure salesman. Hope this helps and that you enjoy whatever system you eventually buy.

B.L

[Oldddudders]

 

Why do you have to read back CV's ? I don't even know what this means !

My case rests.

[jcm@gwr]

 

Richard, might be in Oz, but I think you'll find that there is a slight gap between their locations.

 

Kevin Martin

Kevin, I appreciate that Oz is a big place, but I make the assumption that postage/phone calls

should be cheaper within a country, rather than crossing borders, [with all the hassle of customs

etc.]. Also Richard might know of someone/club local to the OP, so he could go and check things

out more locally, [info we don't have, as we are not local].

Finally, the check/wish list is still very useful to eliminate units which do not fulfill your needs, and

can help narrow down the choice before going out to try whats left on the list.

Cheers, Jeff

[brian777999]

Kevin, I appreciate that Oz is a big place, but I make the assumption that postage/phone calls

should be cheaper within a country, rather than crossing borders, [with all the hassle of customs

etc.].

 

It is actually cheaper to call the UK using SKYPE than it is to call anywhere in Australia. It is also usually cheaper to buy from the UK than to buy any model railway equipment in Australia.

[Kallaroonian]

Items are grossly marked up here in Australia plus if we buy from the UK we get a 20% discount from the VAT being removed; even after allowing for postage this is quite valuable

[brian777999]

 

CV's are the internal settings of the decoders.

For example CV 2 is the start setting for a loco for the number of steps available. Usually a very low value like 0 or 2, since it is only a fraction of a volt (Total track voltage divided by number of steps). This will stop the motor from turning.

CV 5 is similarily the top speed. CV 6 is the mid speed.

 

But first you need to make sure the loco runs properly on DC. Have you resolved your issues on this matter?

 

You don't 'have to read back the CV's, but it helps to know what is going wrong with the settings.

 

 

Kevin Martin

 

I understand what CV's are but I am not familiar with the term ''read back''. What does this mean and if it is so important than why do some controllers lack this feature ?

[Nigelcliffe]

 

I understand what CV's are but I am not familiar with the term ''read back''. What does this mean and if it is so important than why do some controllers lack this feature ?

 

Read-back = Read the value in a CV.

 

Why this matters; if you start changing the values in a decoder, then it helps massively to know what the current settings are before you start. At the simplest level, without read-back you cannot tell the version of the decoder; this will matter as to how certain features work, whether they are enabled, etc..

Without read-back, you make changes "blind" - you change things and hope the change was accepted by the decoder and that the change is useful. You may have a list of default CV values when the decoder was supplied and these might (or might not) actually reflect what's in the decoder and that list may not be complete.

 

Many people manage without read-back. You can get round it with a second device for reading/programming decoders; one popular device for this purpose is the Sprog computer interface unit.

 

 

Adding Readback adds cost to the design and development of a DCC system. There are lots of reasons why they might be missing from particular maker's system offerings.

 

 

- Nigel

[Oldddudders]

I understand what CV's are but I am not familiar with the term ''read back''. What does this mean and if it is so important than why do some controllers lack this feature ?

Can't answer the last question except to suggest it reduces the firmware (?) requirement and may be cheaper, therefore. In a perfect world you wouldn't need to read CVs, because every decoder would slavishly accept the programming instruction and never deviate. In practice, from time to time a decoder will "misbehave" and it helps in diagnosing the ailment if you can discover what the CV settings actually are. The DCC requirements as laid down by NMRA require all decoders to arrive from the factory set to address 3, thus ensuring you can begin the operating and programming process, but you often find other settings are a bit adrift of those your actual model requires. So reading back allows you to then re-set the CV to something more appropriate e.g. if a loco is too fast off the starting blocks, you might check CV3 - acceleration - and find it's set to a very low value (as it should be) which gives you confidence to re-program it to say 25, which you can then check is more suitable in running. Sometimes a short circuit will cause a decoder to really become distressed, losing all its settings and even changing address to a random number. Obviously you don't know that number, and so the decoder is now useless - your throttle can't talk to it. By reading back the 2- or 4-digit address, you can get into dialogue again, and re-program to suit your needs. reading back CVs is essential in my view.

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

I understand what CV's are but I am not familiar with the term ''read back''. What does this mean and if it is so important than why do some controllers lack this feature ?

The CV's are set in the decoder.

Reading back the CV is the ability of the DCC system/Command Station to interrogate the decoder to see what is set in each CV that's supported on a particular decoder.

 

Uses...

To see what is set (e.g. useful when trying to sort out the desired performance, or if there are problems),

Confirmation of what you have set when changing a CV

Useful to have a record if later changes are to be returned to a previous setting.... come on boys, help me with a few more !

 

The DCC systems that lack the ability to read back CV's, are just the budget systems that don't have a programming track output (a cost saving).

You "normally" need a programming track output to utilise the read back facilty.

I say "normally" because it's now possible to read back CV's at anytime on the main, when using a DCC system that has RailCom enabled and decoders which are RailCom equipped.

 

.

[brian777999]

. By reading back the 2- or 4-digit address, you can get into dialogue again, and re-program to suit your needs. reading back CVs is essential in my view.

 

Now that I know what you mean, I agree....it is essential. I am astonished that some controllers do not have this feature. I had assumed that all DCC controllers would be able to do this and I am not interested in any controller that does not

[johnb]

After trying several of the DCC controllers I settled with the NCE. It can be as simple or as complex as you need. The basic control functions are easy and if you need to go deeper the manual is well written and easy to follow.

[Adrian Wintle]

 

Now that I know what you mean, I agree....it is essential. I am astonished that some controllers do not have this feature. I had assumed that all DCC controllers would be able to do this and I am not interested in any controller that does not

 

It isn't essentilal, since you can always set the decoder to a known address if you have programming track/service mode programming capability. That being said, I wouldn't want a system that doesn't have readback ability. I also wouldn't want a system that doesn't have a computer interface that will support JMRI - I prefer to do my programming with a computer.

 

Adrian

[craigwelsh]

I was using an NCE system last weekend and I found the handset a bit big and clunky really (it also started malfunctioning and the screen was pulsing oddly but that is probably a one off!) . It probably is the best value starter system though that can do readback and is a handheld.

 

The best system i've used is a Sprog plus JMRI on the computer for programming. (read back everything and save to a file, visualise the speed curve, easily interpret Cvs without needing the manual). For the throttle WiThrottle on the iphone is superb using Apple's already good ergonomic designed wireless handset and a very responsive software component. The Android stuff is similar though I hope the one shown earlier has the option for a vertical slider for speed which makes more sense to me.

 

As Smartphones become easier and cheaper to obtain new and 2nd hand I think most manufacturers will stick to off the shelf kit like this and ditch their own controllers. An Android phone and a sprog is generally cheaper than a full Lenz or ECoS system and can control a couple of locos.

 

The Merg system we have on the club layout is pretty much the Sprog innards connected to a couple of 5 amp boosters from what I understand.

 

Readback - really comes into its own if you buy RTR fitted with sound where the manufacturer may have supplied the sound chip with CVs set differently to the usual default. Its useful to know what they were before fiddling and it may not always be in the supplied documentation.

[Crewlisle]

Please, will some of you come back down to earth and stop trying to frighten off someone who just wants a straightforward answer, not a load of gobbledygook from some so called 'experts'. Many of you have offered sensible advice about choosing a DCC controller but some of you are just computer geeks! For someone starting out does not want to get involved with JMRI, SPROGs, interfaces with computers, operating from an iPad or computer, etc and perhaps most ludicrous of all suggestion they build their own! Come on, get real. Would you advise someone wanting to buy their first laptop to build their own? Of course not.

 

Three years ago when I considered converting my complex layout to DCC, I was frightened off by these 'experts' in the model magazines. To understand some of the jargon they used you would need an in depth knowledge of electronics which most of us do not posess. So when I converted my layout I wrote an article in layman's language about the conversion and fitting of the decoders in my locos. This appeared in 'Model Rail' October and November 2008. Since then I have been exhibiting at various exhibitions, including the NEC and Ally Pally, and during that time no one has asked about operating through a computer or about which interfaces to use with an iPad! Many have not bothered to change their loco's CV3 or 4. Yes, I know there is almost unlimited things you can do with DCC but for us 'normal' 99% of modellers, one of the well known starter systems or a Lenz, NCE, Dynamis or Digitrax system is more than adequate. I selected the Lenz system with two LH90 hand held controllers because they are the size of a TV remote with a control knob. This allows me to easily operate, change direction or addresses using only one hand. Yes it has its shortcomings but it has more than enough features for me plus the reliability and back up of the Lenz company. So come on, lay off the complex electronics and advise him how to build and enjoy his layout using a well known RTR system.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I have to agree with Crewlisle.

From what I can see, the OP wants straightforward and simple advice, without people going off at a tangent and overcomplicating matters.

 

I also agree with Adrian above. The ability to "read back" CV's is not essential, but very useful. Once you've got that, it's difficult to go back.

Buying a system that has this feature (i.e. that's all except some budget starter systems) doesn't mean you have to use it. But it's there when you feel confident enough to start playing with decoder settings (CV's).

 

.

[Oldddudders]

I have to agree with Crewlisle.

From what I can see, the OP wants straightforward and simple advice, without people going off at a tangent and overcomplicating matters.

 

I also agree with Adrian above. The ability to "read back" CV's is not essential, but very useful. Once you've got that, it's difficult to go back.

Buying a system that has this feature (i.e. that's all except some budget starter systems) doesn't mean you have to use it. But it's there when you feel confident enough to start playing with decoder settings (CV's).

Yup, me too. I am not trying to dismiss the techie guys and their undoubtedly clever solutions, just saying that their routes are probably better employed by those with a bit of DCC-mileage under their belt first. Crewlisle makes the point well - despite his challenging font!

 

As a matter of fact, I seldom use my CV readback facility these days, and almost all of my programming is done on the main - but I know that when I was on the nursery slopes back in the '90s, readback really helped me to get my understanding of what was going on and why. My first system, Roco's Digital Is Cool (!), lacked much in the way of programming ability or readback, and the change to Digitrax seemed very welcome. Similarly, I would not recommend programming-on-the-main for a newcomer, because it can go wrong (although I still dispute the rumoured re-programming of all your stud by mistake), but fully endorse it once the modeller feels more confident about which bits of kit do what. For that matter, I do not use the JMRI suite, but wholeheartedly endorse its use by others, since it obviously works and has the amazing unique feature of being free, subject only to purchase of an affordable 3rd-party interface!

[7013]

You could get as many different answers as controllers, the simple answer (sitting on fence) is the one that you find easiest to use, that is not just the throttle but accessing functions, CVs etc. For instance most people would say that the Lenz system is better than the Hornby, I have used both, first Hornby, then Lenz, now I have both and I must say with the latest firmware the Hornby is a little easier to use, and with the Railmaster to make it even more easier my Lenz may become my secondary system. But it is what you find easiest for your way of operating.

[M Graff]

Well, if we are to keep it that simple, then I suggest we recommend only the basic systems...

Hornby Select

Bachmanns DCC

Roco Lokmaus 2

Lenz compact.....

Not much difficulties in using them, and not much to do with them either.....

 

I don't understand why you shouldn't give advanced recommendations for beginners.

This hobby has it's esoterical sides, and as such, it gives the beginners an incentive to

indulge themselves into the deeper knowledge.

 

I have a past in Pro Mod Dragracing, and when we got newbies that wanted to learn, we didn't say to them that a moped is a good start....

 

[silverlink]

Try, Try, Try, before you buy! as BL mentions in thread 27 you must take your time & look at & try the different systems that are available. I always advise new DCC modellers to purchase the best that their money can buy & if you get a good system you'll never look back. Whilst I use the Lenz 100 it may not be for you however for me it was a brilliant buy as I have been able to add to it as my layout has expanded. As it is NMRA I also have been able to use other manufacturers parts with my Lenz (Digitrax PM42's & NCE Switch-8's) I have found many modellers buy a cheap system & then as they get more into DCC find it won't do the things they want. They end up having to purchase one of the higher quality units that will cost them much more than starting with a good one in the first place. As I say at the start try first, get hold of the different handsets & go through the fuctions & if possible run some loco's!

Cheers

silverlink

[Revolution Mike]

My weariness in advising the simplest solution is based on experience! Some people would bee happy with a Select or similar others would be happy to jump straight in with something more complex and featured.

 

[kipford]

Brian

The best thing to do is to try before buying, however like you, I was unable to do this, which is a point a lot of people seem to be missing. Cairns is a very long way from the next largest city, my guess is that is Townsville at around 300 clicks and if I remember from a 4 week business stint there, it did not have any model shops. I read the magazines, the forums and and looked to see what people were using drawing up my own opinions. I eventually settled on the NCE power cab. Its great value for money, if you don't like it you have not lost a fortune, Ergonomically its good, Its very intuitive, has a good user manual and is literally plug and play. Because it is very intuitive and easy to use, the complex world of CV's are quite easy to handle and it has READ BACK. I now use mine in parallel with a computer to run my layout using the USB interface board. At club level we have now use the as the club standard. My next choice if NCE is not available would be MRC/Gauge Master.

 

Dave

[Izzy]

Might I point out, with respect, that whilst all the advice given shows just what a minefield choosing and using any DCC system can be, and I personally find all points of view are valuable in helping an individual decide whether his reasoning is correct, the main problem the poster has is that where he is located, in Cairns, Australia, he can’t arrange a ‘hands on’ test of the different systems to see which he might prefer.

 

It is why he posted here, to see if others could help/advice him on the best system to get. Obviously since we are all individuals with different tastes and expectations this is something easier said than done since often we aren’t sure what is really best for ourselves.

 

When I went DCC earlier this year I looked around and studied all the available information for some months beforehand, the comments from users on the various systems, the problems found etc. I went to get a system with the intention of buying what I had judged, on paper, to be the best for my requirements based on the information I had gathered together. A Lenz 90 or 100.

 

Not liking what I found in real life at all, far too much button pushing for my liking, I ended up with something entirely different, a MRC/Prodigy Advance2 with which I am completely happy. It has one or to odd foibles, as I have discovered have most other systems, can’t interface with JMRI, (which I’m not bothered about as I have a Spog2), and has a good handset with a choice of rotary or push-button speed control – you can swap between the two endlessly as you control a loco if you feel the need - and individual named buttons for easy access to most functions with minimal multiple button pushing. It also uses a standard Ethernet cable connection between handset and base unit. Very useful if you don’t want the expense of the wireless option but need to move around at greater distance, cabling being quite easy to obtain.

 

Programming on the ‘main’ has never been an issue from the minute I got it, nor has using the program track option, and as well as having the ‘read back’ facility it also automatically chooses the right programming mode to use with any decoder.

 

Hope this helps a bit with making a choice.

 

Izzy

[Ron Ron Ron]

Well, if we are to keep it that simple, then I suggest we recommend only the basic systems...

Hornby Select

Bachmanns DCC

Roco Lokmaus 2

Lenz compact.....

Not much difficulties in using them, and not much to do with them either.....

 

I think you've "got the wrong end of the stick", so to speak.

The posters above have suggested simple and easily understood answers to the OP's questions, not simple systems.

 

As for your list, it's not much use listing 2 systems that have been out of production for some 5 years or more.

[Tim Hale]

I don't understand why you shouldn't give advanced recommendations for beginners.

This hobby has it's esoterical sides, and as such, it gives the beginners an incentive to

indulge themselves into the deeper knowledge.

 

Or you could simply provide an answer to the question being asked by the OP?

 

Tim

[M Graff]

Or you could simply provide an answer to the question being asked by the OP?

Tim

Well, I did.... but when asking "Which DCC controller are the most user-friendly ?", I can only give an honest answer.

My take on user-friendly is not necessarily the same as so eone elses, it all comes down to what kind of knowledge I have before.

 

Most DCC systems are more or less worthless when it comes to U.I. and ergonomics.

That is why I recommended another concept than a Lenz or other.

 

Regarding the "As for your list, it's not much use listing 2 systems that have been out of production for some 5 years or more"

Who cares if they are available new?

Ebay is full of them......