New Howes west country sounds on V4 chip

[big jim]

just been speaking to bryan who pointed me in the direction of this video on youtube, it is his new West country sound chip on a lok-sound V4 chip which is now available from howes

 

bear with me on this as if it aint got a diesel engine i dont know much about the ins and outs of how they work but basically as you will probably know the west country is a 3 cylinder loco with 6 beats per revolution, which in the past has caused bryan (yet another) headache to get sounding right, however the new lok-sound V4 chip has allowed him to record the chip with 6 individual "chuffs" rather than the previous 3 chuff cycle x 2 per revolution

 

the sounds were recorded off "wadebridge" quite recently and bryan has spent a fair bit of time getting it right, as i say this is the first one he has done so any comments and suggestions are welcome, the video is not mine but i hope to get the loco soon for one of myself and 250bob's fabled chase camera videos to see the loco at speed

 

if you click on the users other vids there are more of the WC in action as well as others, jason, who did the video has added the lights to the loco

 

 

the new facility to be able to record individual chuffs has enable bryan to crack on recording other 3 cyl locos such as the A4 and V2 (complete with its percular going out of sync chuffs) all of which will be available as complete new V4 chip projects oer the coming months (with any luck)

[Oldddudders]

Sounds like 3 cylinders to me! Excellent!

[PhilH]

1)Steam loco sound decoders don't do it for me.

2) I've driven Wadebridge a few dozen times, so know quite well what the thing sounds like.

 

and the good news......?

 

not too bad at all.

[Silverstreak]

Im afraid what spoils it for me is the the heavy clanking of the rods when coasting. Very un SR Pacific, more LMS. Its the same on the Howes A1/A4. The siderods should have a light clinking ring to them not a heavy Clank Clunk - Clank Clunk it gets you down after a while

 

Very uncharacteristic I would say

[PhilH]

The siderods should have a light clinking ring to them

 

..depends entirely on how worn everything is. I vividly remember 34038 coming into Eastleigh fro shopping even though it was 50 years ago - the clanking, banging and crashing was excruciating. When 34105 reached the end of its last ticket on the Mid Hants it was making a hell of a row too.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Rod clank was by no means unusual on this class. As PhilH has rightly said in the past it is frequently caused by the driver fully shutting the regulator on a coast and compounded by the loco using a crossover at a fair speed.

 

It is most common in locos that have reached heavy overhaul limits and Bryans syncopation might suggest that this loco needs valve gear adjustment. Another sign that overhaul is close.

 

I would agree that Walschaerts valve gear might be a louder clanker but only for the same level of neglect/ maintenance schedule.

 

You can hear it in the cab. I can vividly remember the sounds emanating from a Class 4 Standard tank loco on a coasting section. As I say, a slight opening of the throttle will very often silence the clank but I think PhilH might tell us if any adjustment to cut off would be needed.

[PhilH]

As I say, a slight opening of the throttle will very often silence the clank but I think PhilH might tell us if any adjustment to cut off would be needed

 

Received wisdom for piston valve Walschaerts gear locos (remember the valve gear on an original Bullied pacific is a miniaturised Walschaerts setup driven by chains) is to drift with a breath of steam on to cushion the pistons at the end of the stroke. Drift cut off is very often marked on the the reverser wheel, if not we normally let it out to around 55%. This does quieten things down, sometimes quite dramatically.

 

Slightly different on Stephensons, Caprotti and slide valve locos - drift in full gear with regulator closed as the valves come away from the faces.

[Cliff Williams]

A4s do clank , if you listen to this video you will hear it clanking through the wind noise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFTphTnv2Q8

[big jim]

Im afraid what spoils it for me is the the heavy clanking of the rods when coasting. Very un SR Pacific, more LMS. Its the same on the Howes A1/A4. The siderods should have a light clinking ring to them not a heavy Clank Clunk - Clank Clunk it gets you down after a while

 

Very uncharacteristic I would say

 

i may be wrong, bryan can tell me tomorrow but the V4 chip lets the user adjust the level of various aux sounds so IF bryan has programmed it in such a way you may be able to drop the volume of the clank right down to your desired level, i will confirm asap

[SRman]

It was a long time ago but I do remember unrebuilt Bulleids coasting through Petts Wood with a distinct clunk-a-clunk-a-clunk-a sound. That's as close as I can describe it but there were other tones in their as well.

 

The whistle and clanking sound the same as on Bryan's v3.5 chips (one of which I still have).

[big jim]

here isa reply from bryan

 

In response to a couple of comments, SR man, much of the sounds are as you rightly say on the Lok 3.5, the whistle etc but with the higher sample rate, as for the clank, unfortunately on the Lok 3.5  it was always a single clank repeated on the 123 version, the best that could be achieved at the time, but with lok 4 you can now have the second slightly different sounding clank sound, in the way that was always available on the 2 and 4 cyl loco  decoders, so that together with subtle noises in between gives the whole thing more realism as a 3 cyl on coast. As for the level of clank it is hard to find a one level  fits all, but at least you get it, something not found too often on the UK RTR locos from the likes of Bachmann and Hornby, and that is if or when you can get them to coast. I set my sounds up to the way I hear or remember  hearing them and, rightly or wrongly, If I like them and they sound right to me they should sound right for  most if not all who fit them.  As for the clanking becoming annoying,  the big difference between a model and the real thing is, the sound is in your face all the time on a model railway whereas if you were at a fixed point the train goes by and that was it. so there  is a limitation as to what can be realistically achieved, especially  on a steam loco decoder, I know there are quite a few who steam decoders "dont do it for them" and I can quite understand as there are so many settings and subtleties on the real thing that a decoder cannot hope to replicate, but if the decoder is treated as an enhancement to what up until recent times was a quiet model rather than expecting it to perform like the real thing then it has had the desired effect, that is of course the sound  decoder you fit is a good representation of the model you want to fit it in!!.

 

 A big problem  which shows up on any decoder is the point at where you hear it from. on a model railway you are the listener from outside so the sounds are there all the time, the sound doesnt get louder on approach  then go past and fade away like in reality, so that is where the repetitious sound of the chuffing or clanking can become annoying. on a real train there are so many other sounds which are mixed in with clanking and chuffing, there is the sound of the train on the rails, there are sounds all around, traffic noise etc these all dilute the clinical sound which is all the decoder can replicate, my friend runs his locos and if it coasts he uses draincocks or safety valve noise which the real locos do. it is all down to the operator. At the end of the day the sound decoder is an enhancement to the moderm day model railway and is here to stay.  as for lowering the individual sound of the clanking it is not possible as it is set in the sound file, there is a function available on Lok4 which allows the overall sound to be faded down or up for situations like leaving or joining a display area, the lower setting level can be set by the operator, this could also be used when the loco is coasting and then returned  to full volume  by the press of a button when picking up chuffing again, I will send the loco up to  Big Jim for a run on 250Bobs layout and they can do some runs  with and without the drains or safetys on whist clanking, I will also set  the fade in out so it can be demonstrated. if the concensus is the clanking is too loud I will adjust it accordingly.

 

 An interesting observation from my part, when I was at the GC recording Wadebridge from the first coach, she was running tender first so  I had a really  good recording position, when coasting it was hard to hear much clank, partly due to the simmering of the engine, which was louder than I had expected,   also the constant noise of the loco and coaches wheels running on the rails which is quite loud,  as we  passed a row of coaches and then a long retaining wall on the approach to Loughbrough the clanking  suddenly became much louder as it was being  reflected, so based on that I set  the clanking level as if I were standing by the coaches as the loco went past. I hope this explains the programmers side a little,  one last thought, Wadebridge is obviously running well as the 6 chuffs were far from out of sync as a lot of Bullieds I have heard so this decoder  is, I think,  a good representation of a WC without going over the top. all  comments welcome and taken on board good or bad. V2 next!!

  Bryan

[SRman]

I hope I wasn't being critical of the v3.5 version as i rather like it and am happy to keep it.

 

While I know the overall volume can be reduced, I thought the steam chuffs were a little too loud and perhaps a little too well defined in the video, particuarly as the WC/BoBs had a fairly soft, slightly 'mushy' chuff anyway.

 

I wonder whether the new sounds might actually be better suited to a rebuilt Bulleid. Then again, the valve gear sounds may not be correct.

 

Just a thought anyway.

 

Don't get me wrong though; it still sounds good. I generally like Bryan's work over most of the competition's. I have a few SWD, a couple of original Bachmann (modified SWD), one original Hornby and one Olivia's (which is scheduled for a reblow as I don't like this one at all) but most of my sound locos have Howes' (Bryan's) sounds. I have not yet had the pleasure of owning a v4 sound decoder, though!

[PhilH]

one last thought, Wadebridge is obviously running well as the 6 chuffs were far from out of sync as a lot of Bullieds I have heard so this decoder is, I think, a good representation of a WC without going over the top. all comments welcome and taken on board good or bad.

 

This I think underlines why a lot of people who actually have anything to do with live steam don't go for steam sound decoders. I've commented on this before and got my b*lls chewed off (by modellers, not steam people) for it for daring to say that, at the moment, steam sounds in models aren't particularly realistic.

 

I won't get involved in it all again but to take your point I've quoted Bulleids, as with other 3 cylinder locos, only have an out of time beat when the reverser is set for a long cut off, as in starting away or accelerating. When the gear is pulled up it evens out - so you can take a recording of a loco in one specific situation, say starting away, put in a decoder and publicise the fact that your decoder has sounds recorded from the real thing. That might be the only time that day that the thing has sounded like that (imagine an A4 getting underway from Kings X, if it's on a non stop that's probably the only time in the day that the thing will chuff) the point is that a steam loco has an almost infinite variety of sounds for any situation, different ways of being driven etc., etc., which is what makes it harder to replicate than a diesel loco.

 

I hope I've explained that - things are getting better but until a decoder appears with massive memory or whatever it can never, in my opinion, sound like a real working loco.

 

I have now ducked.

[trent]

I posted this in another thread but I recently had a MN fitted with a v4 Lok decoder by Howes and I'm well pleased with it. For me its far better to have it like this than running around without sound. Sorry for the poor quality video but it gives an idea of how it sounds.

 

[Silverstreak]

I don't recall saying that WC's or A4's did not clank nor ring on the move. I'm only suggesting that from what I have heard from other sound chips and my own A4 is that all the clanking sounds appear to be overly intense and dare I say in my opinion all sound identical, when in fact each class of locomotive with outside valve gear have their own distinctive note of rod ringing.

 

In Brian's (Howes) response he has said that the rod clank was was taking directly from WC "Wadebridge" which has put me in my place but he did also say that it was lifted from a passage when the loco was was passing some coaches and a retaining wall which would have intensified the sound.

 

I recognise that advances have taken place over a fairly short period of time and loc v4 is another step along the road but for me the current crop thus far still lag behind those available for diesels. However I'm willing to be proven wrong

[big jim]

another eply from bryan, first for phil...

 

Phil, no need to duck as you are totally correct. I think it will be a long time, if ever, before all the variations can be reinacted on a sound decoder. All I have tried to achieve is  recreate with the aid of the new Lok4 decoder the sound of a 3 cylinder loco finally  chuffing with a 6 chuff rythm  so that it brings the model to life and that it sounds correct, I recorded Wadebridge ten chuffs into the accel in clear space in order to capture a long enough sample of one complete cycle without reflactions of sounds in order to recreate as near as possible what the real thing sounded like on the day. Judging by your first posting  you could recognise it from the you tube clip and thought it not bad, so I take that as a compliment.  For those of us who cant play with 12 inch to the foot models   I hope the decoder produces a sound which is as true to the moment in time it was captured. I think that is perhaps a better claim.

 

and another one for trent.....

 

To avoid confusion I must  point out  that the video by Trent is actually of the old 3 chuff WC version converted from the Lok 3.5  prior to the new version release this week, so it is portraying the old  sounds,  Because  it is a lok4 fitted loco if  Trent wishes to send it in to Howes at some convenient point  I will gladly  reblow it with the latest sound FOC, return  postage cost will be required as that is beyond my control, this offer  applies to any other recent Lok 4 MN or WC decoder purchase from Howes, Unfortunately  there is always a point of changeover, but  I dont wish  anyone to  feel they have been cheated of the latest version.

 

 Bryan

[trent]

Thanks for that posting Jim, great service as usual from Bryan/Howes.

 

Please pass on to Bryan I'll get it up to Kidlington in the next coupe of weeks or so.

 

Martin

[PhilH]

Thanks for the post Jim, and thanks for Bryan for his take on it.

 

For what it's worth if I'm not pushing up daisies when these things do get up to scratch I'll be first in line!

[big jim]

finally got bryans V4 west country on the rolling road.....

 

following on from a few comments regarding the rod clank bryan has dropped the volume of it a bit as well as a few other bits and bobs

 

 

again critisism or comments welcome

[trent]

Looks good Jim, Bryan's reblown my 2 MN's with a super fast turn round as usual. Can't wait to test them when I get back home and I'll do another video.

 

Only comment I would make it that it looks like the sound is going faster than the wheel revolutions when the regulator is opened but of course it's difficult to really tell from just looking at an on-line video. One thing is for sure, the sound of a Bulleid pacific has been captured really well.

 

Gold star for Bryan!

 

Martin

[PhilH]

Only comment I would make it that it looks like the sound is going faster than the wheel revolutions when the regulator is opened

 

At slow speed it looks spot on for 6 beats / rev to me.

[SRman]

That sounds really good, especially at the slow to medium speeds. I wonder if Bryan has dropped the rod clanking volume just a tad too much (or is that a smidgin??). The clanking does have the right sound for my own memories (was it really half a century ago?).

 

[big jim]

I wonder if Bryan has dropped the rod clanking volume just a tad too much (or is that a smidgin??).

 

 

just been speaking to bryan, he says he is going to raise the rod clank a bit after listening to the vid, as i pointed out to bryan my personal feeling is the exhaust note comes in a bit too loud when you throttle up from the coast sound, raising the clank volume a "smidgen" should make it less pronounced

[250BOB]

Hi Jim,

Just listened to the vid, as others have said, the slow to medium running is magnificent.....and to me thats what is important. There are not many model railways around that you can realistically run at over 40mph(scale speed).......once it speeds up, I'm afraid it just sounds like a crescendo of noise, as do most other fast steam sounds to a degree, you lose that distinct class fingerprint.

Hope to see you as arranged.

Bob

[tender]

Sorry to bump this topic, but i'm just about to embark fitting my West Country, Loksound chip and bass reflex speaker. Can anyone who's already fitted this explain the best method. The loco has a 8pin dcc socket on top of the main block in the loco but i don't think there's room for the bass reflex speaker. Should i rewire and fit decoder and speaker in the tender or just the speaker or other suggestion?