dave flint Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Reading between the lines (and probably falling through the gap), I kind of got the feeling that the 21 pin chip was a bit of a dead end, with Bachmann ploughing a relatively lone furrow, whilst the Contiontental chaps are heading off with Plux (?) connectors. Heljan haven't made the move beyond 8 pin, although Hornby's Sapphire chip shows some movement from the 8 pin norm. I also gather that Bachmann's 21 pin chip - perfectly adequate for my needs- seems to be in short supply. I was a little surprised, therefore, to see that Dapol had chosen to go the 21 pin route too. Is my thinking well wide of the mark ? I wonder if Dapol committed to 21 pin long ago, when the world might be moving on and they've been caught by "events" ? Mods - feel free to move to DCC forum if you feel this is more appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Griffin Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 i agree, with alot of Bachmann diesels also now 21 pin, and the 21 pin decoder in short supply it puts me off buying new models, id rather save my dosh and get somthing else that i can readily chip. i wont be buying a 22, or indeed anything new that comes out thats 21 pin dcc ready, as the decoders simply arnt available cheaply enough to chip large ammounts of locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matabiau Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hornby use both 8 and 21 pin sockets on their international ranges (Rivarossi, Jouef, etc..), so I don't believe Bachmann and now Dapol are the only proponents. The 21 pin interface has the advantage of controlling more than two functions as per the 8 pin interface and being built onto the chip makes it much easier to install. I too find it frustrating that for over six months now I have been unable to get hold of a Bachmann 21-pin chip. I have had to resort to removing the chips from little used locos to install in new ones which is far from satisfactory. While the Hornby Saphire is an alternative it is twice the price of the Bachmann one (albeit with more than twice the functionality). Does anyone know when Bachmann will be releasing more? It seems bizarre to release more and more locomotives that require 21 pin chips without releasing the chips to go in them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted November 21, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 21, 2011 At Warley the other day Bachmann had lots of 21pin decoders, going at £15 each so I do not understand the apparent shortage, are Bachmann hoarding? I also picked up a Sapphire 21pin decoder for £16 from the Cheltenham MRC stand. I do not know where this twice the price comes in because I have always found the Hornby 21 pins to be just a few pounds more at most, they do have 4 functions as opposed to the Bachmanns 3. Plus the Sapphire has the fuel and water function. I cannot remember where I read it but the article seemed to indicate that 21 pin decoders were the future standard decoder, but I may be wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 If anything, they really should be installing PluX sockets on all new models. The 21-pin socket, as well as the 8-pin are on their way out, or at least that's the intention. Although they don't carry any actual authority or weight on this side of the "pond", the NMRA have recommended that 21-pin sockets should no longer be installed in newly introduced model designs, as of January 2010. That's nearly two years ago, so I guess Dapol have no excuse. As far as I can see, on the European mainland, most if not all of 2011's new model introductions are fitted with the PluX arrangement. If anybody wants a 21-pin decoder and can't get hold of the Bachmann ESU Basic clone, have a look at the TCS EU621. As well as being a better quality decoder, it has 6 function outputs and is RailCom equipped, but is a tad more expensive at around £21. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hi chaps, We wanted to go for a 21 pin decoder socket for a couple of reasons. Firstly PLux was mooted as the new 'thing' but has yet to take off, and secondly availability of this decoder and proce when compared to the 21 pin which seems to be a British Standard. It was decided a year before PLux was announced but to save confusion we kept it, and i'm glad to say we did. I'm sorry that you havnt had moch joy in getting 21 pin decoders but they are in plentiful supply and have been for the last year at least as i have had no problem getting them from established suppliers within the UK. cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free At Last Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 On another forum there is someone complaining of the Hattons/Dapol LMS 10000 having a 22 pin socket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Firstly PLux was mooted as the new 'thing' but has yet to take off, and secondly availability of this decoder and proce when compared to the 21 pin which seems to be a British Standard. Hi Dave, I follow your reasoning, but if I may I'd like to make a couple of comments regards the above quote. PluX isn't mooted to be anything. It is a NMRA standard and has been for nearly two years. There is a clear intention for a gradual migration to this new standard. As with most new things in the model railway world, particularly developments in DCC, the introduction of PluX will inevitably take some time. It was well over a year before the first decoders fitted with it were announced. However, things are beginning to happen, as I mentioned above with regard to new continental European models. In addition, almost all European decoder manufacturers have at least one PluX model in their range, with more to follow. I expect progress will be slow due to the progressive rollout of new models fitted with the new sockets and the continued demand for decoders with the legacy connector arrangements. Price is definitely an issue and I entirely understand your reasoning there. As for your reference to "British standard"; I'm not sure if you are referring to availability, 21-pin or price? Tongue in cheek, I rather fear it's price that's the "British standard", with many DCC users seemingly wedded to the budget, low spec. end of the decoder market. I'd hazard a guess that the present is probably an awkward time to be making such commercial manufacturing decisions, particularly with the British market traditionally lagging a few years behind with anything new. Regards Ron . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 With this being the first 00 rtr release that isn't a commission I can see why Dapol wouldn't want to go radical and start introducing a new standard to the UK market. Much as a PluX would be nice it probably is important that many people fitting cheapo chips are catered for. AS for 8-pin vs 21-pin, manufacturers choose the latter for sound chips so it makes sense for this to have one to allow people to fit that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I thought it was the Europeans that lobbied for the 21 pin configuration in the first place. I've not heard of 21 pin in the US market (but then I don't follow it closely). I have wondered about the use of 21 pin in British locos since our locos don't seem to have much need for much beyond simple lighting and sound. An 8 pin is adequate for that. There are converters from 21 pin to 8 pin. Craig, am I missing something? I have 6 and 8 pin sound decoders (ESU) which work well as far as I know. What does 21 pin add to that? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Craig, am I missing something? I have 6 and 8 pin sound decoders (ESU) which work well as far as I know. What does 21 pin add to that? John The manufacturer can wire the speaker into their mainboard not directly to the chip. We should have cab lights independent at both ends too but I cant remember if Bachmann have done that yet. Actually a couple of solder pads for the speaker would be a nice thing to have on the Dapol boards if its not already done.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I thought it was the Europeans that lobbied for the 21 pin configuration in the first place. I believe you are mostly correct John. There was a long standing requirement for a multi-pin connector to satisfy the need for more auxiliary decoder functions. In the absence of agreement, several European RTR manufacturers (lead initially by Marklin and Trix) broke rank and adopted the 21-pin MTC connector, as a non-standard fitment. This was subsequently put forward as the solution to the requirement, but others (including US manufacturers) felt it did not satisfy all the requirements being discussed. After much wrangling, agreement was reached on the versatile PluX system and the 21-pin was formally adopted as an interim NMRA recommended connector, pending gradual introduction of the PluX. I believe MOROP are fully in accord with this. The 4, 6, 8, 9 (JST) and 21 pin connectors remain within the NMRA standards & RP's, for legacy reasons (i.e. for the models that already exist) and it is expected that decoder manufacturers will still continue to produce decoders with them to satisfy the market AFAIA, so far only the 21-pin connector has been recommended not to be fitted any longer to newly introduced RTR models (as of January 2010). Interestingly, it's the very European RTR manufacturers who introduced the 21-pin in the first place, who have embraced the spirit of the NMRA and MOROP and are starting to adopt the PluX. The US RTR manufacturers who called for a 22-pin decoder are nowhere to be seen (yet?). I have wondered about the use of 21 pin in British locos since our locos don't seem to have much need for much beyond simple lighting and sound. An 8 pin is adequate for that. The 8-pin can't even cope with 4 function outputs, hence the spare purple wire on 4 function decoders. Many if not most mid-priced and above decoders now come with 5 or 6 functions (some more expensive ones have 8 ). This may be overkill for Steam outline models without any bells or whistles (quite literally too), but as Craig said above, 4 functions doesn't even provide proper independent lighting, as per the prototype. Even for steam, if adding DCC controllable smoke, firebox flicker and working lamps, suddenly the need for extra functions begins to appear. Incidentally, the smallest PluX size is 8-pins, which I believe provides up to 3 functions. The next size up is the PluX12 which provides up to 7 functions. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Thanks for the clarification Ron. Your description confirms my feelings. I have a few diesels and, of course, steam. The 8 pin has enough functionality for me, although the inability to independently control front and rear lights is a tad annoying. I have seen quite a few videos of smoke equipped locos - even the latest German ones - and I remain firmly unimpressed. Steam loco lights and flicker are roads I have no wish to venture down at this time. It's all subjective - each to his own. BTW, I had a Hornby tender drive 8F years ago with fiebox glow. I thought that looked pretty good but it got dropped. Thanks again. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 No problem John. BTW, I had a Hornby tender drive 8F years ago with fiebox glow. I thought that looked pretty good but it got dropped. Today's DCC version allows you to adjust the brightness of the glow and flicker, set the flicker rate and pattern and even map the effect to a sound function containing the sound of the fireman shovelling coal into the fire. If that floats your boat, so to speak. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 LOL, Probably showing my age but I think I'm happy with a loco that runs well. I have a theory that a lot of these whizbang devices that the likes of Apple and others keep flogging are solutions looking for a problem. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted November 21, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 21, 2011 We could be heading for a debacle like the early VTR and recent Blue Ray introductions. We in this country are just getting to grips with DCC even though it has been around a while. Most people accept the 6,8 & 21 pin concepts, but if we go into Plux there is a danger of things getting out of hand. As stated the NMRA is advisory not compulsory, therefore the 6,8 & 21 pin decoders should continue. People in this country (and Europe) will get mightily fed up if we just get used to 6,8 and 21pin decoders only for them to become redundant in favour of another type of decoder. I am not sure if Plux is compatible with the 6,8 &21 pin sockets, but at least you can plug an 8 pin into a 21 pin socket via an adaptor (Not sure about a 6pin) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quite the reverse 7013. The PluX system gets away from the mishmash of different socket formats, by introducing a single unified format with 4 different interchangeable sizes of socket and decoder. For example, no need to use adapters (a potential point of failure and a space and money waster) when fitting a smaller (number of pins) decoder into a larger (number of pins) socket. e.g. a PluX8 decoder will fit into a PluX8, PluX12, PluX16 or PluX22 socket. A PluX16 decoder will fit in a PluX16 or PluX22 socket etc. The older interface types will not become redundant, they'll still be there on our existing models and new decoders to fit them will still be available while there's a market for them. The European MOROP organisation (roughly the equivalent of the NMRA in N. America) are party to this too and the RTR and decoder manufacturers are already (slowly) starting to switch over. Regarding compatibility between old and new... the present 6, 8 & 21 pin decoders will not fit or work in a PluX socket, or v.v.. That's no worst than today, as without adapters (only available for a limited range of configurations ) the older types are incompatible with each other. Conversely, the new system will allow that sort of flexibility. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Thanks for all the responses, interesting stuff. I have 3 steam loco;s with 21 pin decoders, one 21 pin diesel (deltic) and would like the 21 and 10000 (if it has a 21 pin and not a 22 pin socket). I have a surplus of 8 pin decoders, and will attempt to save a few bob using the adaptors. Now, as the steam locos have plenty of room in the tenders, I don't think I will have a problem getting them in there. But with the diesels......? Is there room, heightwise especially, for an adaptor and a decoder ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 On another forum there is someone complaining of the Hattons/Dapol LMS 10000 having a 22 pin socket. Hattons( ehattons.com) website states that further shipments of 10000/1 will have 21 pin sockets ( acknowledging that first shipments had 22 pin fitted) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I use the universal adaptor in my locos. It's called hard wiring. It is more reliable, takes a lot less space and is much cheaper than plug, socket and now adaptors. I am puzzled, why does one need a plug, socket and adaptor, how often do you change your decoders? Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I use the universal adaptor in my locos. It's called hard wiring. It is more reliable, takes a lot less space and is much cheaper than plug, socket and now adaptors. I am puzzled, why does one need a plug, socket and adaptor, how often do you change your decoders? Cheers Godders When I 'went digital' back in '98 ! hard wiring was the only option, There was no such thing as a socket! I fitted decoders to many of my own locos, and did a few for some friends, the thing was though word seemed to get round that I was capable of doing the job and i got quite a few requests to 'do' other peoples locos, The conclusion reached was that many users just did not feel competent enough to tackle hard wiring, I feel therefore that DCC Ready locos ( ie socket on board ready for a decoder) has done a great deal to increase the popularity and usage of DCC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave flint Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hattons( ehattons.com) website states that further shipments of 10000/1 will have 21 pin sockets ( acknowledging that first shipments had 22 pin fitted) So yet another clanger on a new model ? I use the universal adaptor in my locos. It's called hard wiring. It is more reliable, takes a lot less space and is much cheaper than plug, socket and now adaptors. I am puzzled, why does one need a plug, socket and adaptor, how often do you change your decoders? Cheers Godders I'm hard wiring my lad's Thomas stuff, but if there is a socket, I'll use it. I don't "do" sound, so am more than happy with the sockets and functionality that are fitted. How often do I change decoders ? Very rarely, but have bought a lot of DCC Concepts chips with the very useful stay alive to replace "standard" chips and improve the running of many Thomas range 0-4-0, 0-6-0 and other models. hence the surfeit of 8 pin decoders. Why buy a new 21 pin chip if I can recycle an 8 pin with an adaptor ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted November 22, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2011 Thanks for explaining things clearly Ron, on the face of it PluX would appear to be a unification of the technology rather than the need for adaptors etc. it will be interesting to see how this develops in the future, I for one would support such a move wholeheartedly but it is a matter of getting the infrastructure right before we have a situation that could arise whereby lots of locos are released with PluX plugs and no decoders to fit them! Unless there is an agreement with all interested parties that this is the way forward it looks as if 6,8 and 21 pin decoders will be the mainstay for a long time to come. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 ......but it is a matter of getting the infrastructure right before we have a situation that could arise whereby lots of locos are released with PluX plugs and no decoders to fit them! Indeed it would be a problem if there were no decoders. However, even though it's still very early days, with the first PluX fitted RTR only being released during this year, there are already a number of decoders available. At the last count there were at least 10 non-sound decoders and 10 sound decoders available, or shortly to become available from..... Lenz (Silver PluX-12 ), ESU (versions of the LokSound V4.0 and LokPilot V4.0), Zimo (1 n/sound + 3 sound PluX decoders), Uhlenbrock (3 n/sound + 4 sound), CTE (1 n/sound + 2 sound), Kuehn (1 n/sound), Tams (1 n/sound) Roco (1 n/sound - possibly one of the Zimo products) I guess that list will grow over the next couple of years. Unless there is an agreement with all interested parties that this is the way forward it looks as if 6,8 and 21 pin decoders will be the mainstay for a long time to come. As I've said a couple of times already, 6, 8 & 21pin decoders will still be available for years to come. AIUI the idea is for a gradual migration as new RTR models become available. Our existing models don't need to change or be modified in any way and we should still be able to buy decoders for them. From what I can glean, "all interested parties", if by that you mean the leading standards organisations (NMRA & MOROP) and the larger DCC and RTR manufacturers (certainly those in Europe), have to a greater or lesser degree been involved or party to this development. On the whole, I think it makes a lot of sense and IMHO, we should welcome and support it. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klink Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Indeed it would be a problem if there were no decoders. However, even though it's still very early days, with the first PluX fitted RTR only being released during this year, there are already a number of decoders available. At the last count there were at least 10 non-sound decoders and 10 sound decoders available, or shortly to become available from..... Lenz (Silver PluX-12 ), ESU (versions of the LokSound V4.0 and LokPilot V4.0), Zimo (1 n/sound + 3 sound PluX decoders), Uhlenbrock (3 n/sound + 4 sound), CTE (1 n/sound + 2 sound), Kuehn (1 n/sound), Tams (1 n/sound) Roco (1 n/sound - possibly one of the Zimo products) I guess that list will grow over the next couple of years. As I've said a couple of times already, 6, 8 & 21pin decoders will still be available for years to come. AIUI the idea is for a gradual migration as new RTR models become available. Our existing models don't need to change or be modified in any way and we should still be able to buy decoders for them. From what I can glean, "all interested parties", if by that you mean the leading standards organisations (NMRA & MOROP) and the larger DCC and RTR manufacturers (certainly those in Europe), have to a greater or lesser degree been involved or party to this development. On the whole, I think it makes a lot of sense and IMHO, we should welcome and support it. . Can't say ive heard hide or hair of the PluX down here in Oz.... as it is we're finally seeing more 21 pin equipped locos, and some are having speakers pre installed. I'll be interested to see whether this connector will start making inroads into our market, given we have a lot of US modellers here besides UK/AU scenes. I can probably guess which of our manufacturers would be the one to do it eventually too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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