Dapol OO - why the 21 pin DCC socket ?

[ThaneofFife]

PluX? I'm sorry, maybe I have been living in a cave for too long......look, if it happens. it happens.

I'll let the BETA pioneers give it a shot first and stick with my VHS until such time as it becomes the norm and (as I predict) until the price has levelled off after the initial frothing is over.

 

I dont believe the issue of price point for new developments/standards is a label thats justified purely towards UK buyers and I find the suggestion that it is rather patronising.

 

Going DCC remains expensive enough as it is without the possible cloud hanging of a new set up to lighten our wallets further. All for progress but as has been stated earlier many UK modellers are coming in late to DCC and have only just begun to get a grip on it. The plug and play 6, 8 and 21 sockets have helped the DCC market to grow in this country no end mainly amongst those less confident at hard wiring.

 

Thanks.

[Oakydoke]

I'll let the BETA pioneers give it a shot first and stick with my VHS until such time as it becomes the norm and (as I predict) until the price has levelled off after the initial frothing is over.

????? Are you confused or is it me?

I'm not sure what Beta pioneers are going to try out? In fact there's nothing for anyone to try out.

When the first RTR is released with this new plug & socket arrangement, then all that will be required is to buy a suitable decoder to go in it. End of !

The decoder functionality won't be any different.

 

Going DCC remains expensive enough as it is without the possible cloud hanging of a new set up to lighten our wallets further.

Again I'm confused by this comment. Where does any extra cost come into the equation?

RTR locos are currently released with 6, 8 or 21 pin connectors. That doesn't involve different pricing as a result of what type of connector is used. Why should the introduction of a new type of connector result in extra costs?

 

The plug and play 6, 8 and 21 sockets have helped the DCC market to grow in this country no end mainly amongst those less confident at hard wiring.

So what does a new type of connector have to do with hard wiring?

The PluX is just as plug and play as the others, with the advantage that a decoder will go into any socket with the same or greater number of pins.

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

Totally agree with Dapols decision. When manufacturers are ready they will change, it will be driven by the market and costs. I know one decoder manufacturer who has no plans for the next couple of years in making the change.

 

To the best of my knowledge their is no decoder currently in manufacture that will use all of the 22 pins. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

Besides wanting the option of 22 pins who has used lets just say 16 connections? Most will not interested in the extra functions, control etc offered by 22 pin let alone understand it.

 

I going to stick to hard wiring, removing PCB's etc as it then allows me to to get in the goodies that actually use these pins. 18 pins used is the best I have managed.

 

I totally understand and respect Dapols decision as I see it as a good move for the UK market.

 

Martin

[brossard]

ESU do a 21 pin PCB. Lets you put in the wires you want while still having the ability to easily change out decoders. Admittedly it would be a rare thing to change decoders but it would be a boon to troubleshooting.

 

John

[Orange Alco]

In the case of the 21-pin mtc connector many of the pins have specific uses for Marklin AC models so in fact there is not much gain over 8-pin (speaker +/- and AUX2 really).

[Ron Ron Ron]

Totally agree with Dapols decision. When manufacturers are ready they will change, it will be driven by the market and costs......

......I totally understand and respect Dapols decision as I see it as a good move for the UK market.

Whenever there is any changeover, it's difficult to make those sort of manufacturing decisions. I agree that it's too early for the UK RTR market, as it lags behind what is happening elsewhere.

If instead, Dapol were manufacturing a new loco for say the German market, then the decision may have been quite different. Similarly, once UK RTR starts to appear with the new arrangement, a different decision may be made.

 

I know one decoder manufacturer who has no plans for the next couple of years in making the change.

Martin, is this the same small company who doesn't have a 21 pin model and who's decoders are limited to 2 & 4 functions versions only?

 

To the best of my knowledge their is no decoder currently in manufacture that will use all of the 22 pins. Correct me if I am wrong.

Whether they will use all the pins is a good question, but there are at least 5 decoders with the full set of 22 pins on sale (4 sound and one non-sound decoders), from Zimo, Uhlenbrock and CTE.

Why there is a non-sound 22 pin decoder available, is a bit puzzling, but if you want 17 loads of functions, it's there. [edited]

The other 14 models of PluX decoder I have identified, are all 12 and 16 pin versions.

 

Besides wanting the option of 22 pins who has used lets just say 16 connections?

If I've got it right, 16 pins will provide up to 9 ?? functions. [edited]

An example may be a full set of working lights (e.g. modern British diesel loco) which would use 6 functions; DCC uncoupling - 2 more functions (one for either end), leaving 1 other function for something else (e.g. proper working fan function, exhaust smoke, servo operation etc.). [edited]

 

 

I going to stick to hard wiring, removing PCB's etc as it then allows me to to get in the goodies that actually use these pins. 18 pins used is the best I have managed.

ESU do a 21 pin PCB. Lets you put in the wires you want while still having the ability to easily change out decoders. Admittedly it would be a rare thing to change decoders but it would be a boon to troubleshooting.

Uhlenbrock have introduced similar PluX PCB sockets to perform the same function as those ESU PCB's.

 

 

 

In the case of the 21-pin mtc connector many of the pins have specific uses for Marklin AC models so in fact there is not much gain over 8-pin (speaker +/- and AUX2 really).

Indeed, but remember that 8 pins doesn't even cater for 4 function outputs.

A 4 function decoder really needs 9 pins minimum, hence the spare dangling wire on those 4 function decoders with 8 pin plugs.

 

.

[Grovenor]

Whether they will use all the pins is a good question, but there are at least 5 decoders with the full set of 22 pins on sale (4 sound and one non-sound decoders), from Zimo, Uhlenbrock and CTE.

But according to the standard/RP only 21 pins are available for use, pin 11 being blanked to prevent the plug being inserted the wrong way round.

http://atw.huebsch.at/DCC/NEM_Stecker22.htm??

Keith

[Oakydoke]

But according to the standard/RP only 21 pins are available for use, pin 11 being blanked to prevent the plug being inserted the wrong way round.

Keith is right. The index position, pin 11, only allows a connection to be made with the correct orientation.

The same pin numbering convention is used with the smaller size sockets and decoders, e.g. PluX16 has pins 3 - 18, with pin 11 being the index position.

 

In addition, some of the pins are labled for other than auxillary output, possibly reserved for Marklin use on multiprotocol decoders.

The number of functions that can be accomodated will therefore be less than given by Ron above.

[Ron Ron Ron]

But according to the standard/RP only 21 pins are available for use, pin 11 being blanked to prevent the plug being inserted the wrong way round.

In addition, some of the pins are labled for other than auxillary output, possibly reserved for Marklin use on multiprotocol decoders.

The number of functions that can be accomodated will therefore be less than given by Ron above.

 

Oops ! I'd forgotten about the blank index pin and other uses of various pins. Previous post suitably amended.

Regardless, the extra pins do enable the use of more function outputs than are currently available.

 

.

[Marty Mc]

Hi

 

Well spotted Grovener and Oakydoke I was wondering when that would be picked up.

 

3 different manufacturers come to mind Ron but to answer your question no, not said manufacturer in Perth.

 

Let me put is another way how many UK DCC modellers out there actually use 6 or 8 functions, hall sensors, fan forced smoke units etc. Not many what you talking about is maybe 1-3% if it is even that high? As I said in my previous post I consider it a good decision that Dapol made. Why aim for at best 5% of the market when the other 95% will happily accept 6 or 8 pin.

 

If I've got it right, 16 pins will provide up to 9 functions.

An example may be a full set of working lights (e.g. modern British diesel loco) which would use 6 functions; DCC uncoupling - 2 more functions (one for either end), leaving 1 other function for something else (e.g. proper working fan function, exhaust smoke, servo operation etc.).

Even your statement Ron tells me your more than likely fall into the 95% or you would actually know from practical experience what can be done and the limits.

 

A full set of working lights? Well that depends I have a fair few UK locos with anywhere from 16-22 fully independent lights from 3 different decoders and I still didnt manage to achieve a full set of prototypical working lights, I just plain ran out of space.

 

I do however consider the 22 pin a step in the right direction, I just dont think the UK market really needs it just yet.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[Talltim]

 

????? Are you confused or is it me?

I'm not sure what Beta pioneers are going to try out? In fact there's nothing for anyone yet

 

I think that's Beta as in max, not Beta as in pre-release

[melmerby]

I think that's Beta as in max, not Beta as in pre-release

A bit off post but Betamax (and Video 2000) lost because of commercial decisions not public choice.

Most major rental groups were persuaded to take VHS and as a lot of TV equipment (at the time) was rented the market was secured.

The others had no chance, however much better they were (and IMHO both were better than VHS)

Those buying their equipment made there own choice and I believe private purchases at times actually out sold VHS but were trounced by rental shipments.

 

Keith

[giz]

A bit off post but Betamax (and Video 2000) lost because of commercial decisions not public choice.

Most major rental groups were persuaded to take VHS and as a lot of TV equipment (at the time) was rented the market was secured.

The others had no chance, however much better they were (and IMHO both were better than VHS)

Those buying their equipment made there own choice and I believe private purchases at times actually out sold VHS but were trounced by rental shipments.

 

Keith

 

I've also read that in some markets Betamax was the dominant format.

[Suzie]

Those of you who are cost driven really need to start lobbying your manufacturers to get rid of the NEM652 8-pin sockets. The decoders for that connector cost a couple of pounds more than they need because of the cost of hand-soldering the wires on.

Getting your locos with a Plu-8 socket instead will give you an extra £2 to spend on a better decoder.

 

I would have thought that the big loco manufacturers would have jumped at the chance to to only have to stock the one low cost Plu-8 decoder that would fit in all their locos regardless of whether it had a Plu-8, Plu-12, Plu-16 or Plu-22 socket. Expensive and bulky adapters will be a thing of the past - no more having to make do with what is available in the shop and buy an adapter, the decoder will just fit..

 

Bachmann could for example replace all of their 36-552, 36-553, 36-554 and 36-558 with a single 3-function Plu-8 decoder that could be used in all their 00 and N gauge locos were they to adopt Plu-x.

 

As with all these things, progress is inevitable, and the sooner the manufacturers adopt Plu-x the sooner they will make savings, and the sooner we will too.

 

I have no locos with 21-pin sockets, and since the 21-pin socket was deprecated over a year ago I will be very disappointed to get a new loco now that has one.

[charliepetty]

"PluX" - decoders. . . The NMRA standardised interfaces of the future are to be called "PluX-8", "PluX-16" and "PluX-22". This concept is better than the current 21-pin interface, which was produced Ad-hoc. ZIMO will offer decoders (both with sound and without sound) for all these interfaces, as soon as locomotive manufacturers commence production (During the course of the year)

They will be derived from the existing types MX620 (for PluX-8, MX64D (for PluX-16) and MX640D (for PluX-22 and sound), and thereby all will work satisfactorily and have full ZIMO.

DCC PluX22_20070528.pdf

[melmerby]

 

I've also read that in some markets Betamax was the dominant format.

Actually where I worked (in an electronics enviroment) V2000 was top, Betamax second and VHS trailed a poor third in numbers bought.

For some reason nobody seemed to be renting!

I have seen the lack of rental "porn" claimed as the downfall of Betamax but as there was effectively no rental market for several years after launch , by which time VHS had reached a dominating position that seems a bit of a red herring.

 

Keith

 

P.s. must get back to OP

[Ron Ron Ron]

Let me put is another way how many UK DCC modellers out there actually use 6 or 8 functions, hall sensors, fan forced smoke units etc. Not many what you talking about is maybe 1-3% if it is even that high? .....

....Why aim for at best 5% of the market when the other 95% will happily accept 6 or 8 pin.

Hi Martin; a late reply, but here goes....

I have no doubt that at this point in time you are right, but that is not the issue or purpose of the new PluX standard.

It is there to facilitate convenience and flexibility of use, whilst providing the facilities for an expanding range of optional features and functions.

It doesn't matter if you need or want to take advantage of the expansion capability, but it's there for those manufacturers and modellers who do. In this regard, up to now the existing muddle of different types of connector interface have presented an obstacle in providing a simplified and unified means of satisfying that requirement..

 

I do however consider the 22 pin a step in the right direction, I just dont think the UK market really needs it just yet.

I agree that it is definitely a step in the right direction.

IMHO, the sooner we move over to it the easier it will be and as far as I can see, such a change will have no effect on the use of current models, current sockets, decoders or DCC systems.

The UK market has a habit of lagging behind with new developments, but to fall behind on this one may partly cut us off from access to various RTR models, electronic and DCC goodies, that become available elsewhere.

 

 

I would have thought that the big loco manufacturers would have jumped at the chance to only have to stock the one low cost Plu-8 decoder that would fit in all their locos regardless of whether it had a Plu-8, Plu-12, Plu-16 or Plu-22 socket.

Bachmann could for example replace all of their 36-552, 36-553, 36-554 and 36-558 with a single 3-function Plu-8 decoder that could be used in all their 00 and N gauge locos were they to adopt Plu-x.

Unfortunately Suzie, PluX8 would be very limiting and only provide 2 functions off its 7 pins.

Much better to go for a minimum of PluX12 or PluX16.

 

Expensive and bulky adapters will be a thing of the past - no more having to make do with what is available in the shop and buy an adapter, the decoder will just fit..

8 to 21 adapters are an unnecessary kludge.

Apart from adding bulk and taking up limited space, they are an additional expensive that would be done away with in a PluX fitted situation.

Their use also introduces another potential point of electrical problems or failure.

 

Any PluX decoder will fit in any PluX socket of the same size or larger, so even if the shop doesn't have the one you really want in stock, what they do have in stock will still fit and work, until you choose to either replace it later, or decide to stick with what you have. No more of those 8-pin / 21-pin conundrums depending on what's to hand or available in the shops at the time.

 

As with all these things, progress is inevitable, and the sooner the manufacturers adopt Plu-x the sooner they will make savings, and the sooner we will too.

 

I have no locos with 21-pin sockets, and since the 21-pin socket was deprecated over a year ago I will be very disappointed to get a new loco now that has one.

I quite agree with this.

Why fight against a very positive move forward that will provide either benefits or potential benefits for all users. I cannot see a single downside to it.

 

Regards

Ron

 

.

[melmerby]

I don't understand why anybody would seem to think that DCC chips are, at present, standardised.

In 00 & H0 we have 6, 8 & 21 sockets, wired-in chips and the manufacturer specific drop-in pcbs for such things as US outline diesels.

 

Any move to a more standardised system would be welcome and I don't think putting a Plux socket in any new or re-worked loco would be retrograde, as long as suitable chips are in the market place. After all the fitting of (effectively non standard ) 21-pin sockets to some recent models has hardly hurt Bachmann has it?

If the chips/socket fit the spaces currently available (and the PDF posted by charliepetty seems to suggest they will) I don't see a problem.

 

Keith

 

P.S. I'm not suggesting that Bachmann's 21 pins are Plux BTW!