billbedford Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I have a question for all those who have been happy with their EM modelling for the last quarter century:- If they were starting out on their finescale modelling career today, as the OP is, would they choose EM or P4? ie would they go for the safe and slightly staid world of EM or the exciting leap into the unknown world of P4? And would the possible advent of RTR P4 locos influence their decision? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
workev2000 Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 Usually it would be possible to refer back to old topics but unless you know exactly where they are it's difficult in this case because 'P4' and 'EM' are too short to be search words! Absolutely. I do research RMweb for issues when I am able to, I tried many variations of the EM search believe me! Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 The S4 Society have been great, BUT whilst they are looking to improve info for newbies, there is still a lack of information available to make a decision as to what's involved. "Just try it" is all when and good; but not when it might cost £300+ to have a small layout to see whether I like it! (S4S are working on things which will address this btw, before any of the S4 committee shoot me down ). I'll form a view of EMS when I join.Ian I think there will always be a jump needed, a gamble taken by the individual whatever information is out there. Many of us who model EM/P4 can give an overview of our personal opinion on time taken and ease etc but everyone is different and what I find easy for example many others have said isn't or vice versa. The nature of modification is also a bit complicated in its variance. One loco/wagon can be completely different to another in its ease of conversion. Looking at EM there has been mention on here previously that some locos can have the wheels pushed out while some need new wheels. This can be between recent locos from the same manufacturer. I'd say your £300 is at the top end of the scale. An Exactoscale starter pack, some gauges and some wheels (coach wheels on a diesel) would give you a viable taste of P4 for example and should be under £100. Most can go on eBay after if its not for you. EM would be C+L kit and some wheels but you can also try pulling out the wheels on other stock there. There are also clubs and groups that can give you an idea as well but its nothing compared to getting on and trying something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I think the ultimate decision has to be based upon why you want to try out EM or P4. The only visible differences between these gauges and OO are the track and wheels. As some have already pointed out OO gauge can be made to look most convincing (look at Colin Parks Newhaven Harbour layout as proof) with the right approach and hand built track (C and L supply complete bullhead point kits with everything you need). I think for most P4 and EM modellers (some will disagree) the reason for choosing these gauges is primarily for closer fidelity to the prototype, followed by the challenge they represents and the overall look. There will of course be other reasons, such as potentially more reliable running through compensation (P4 mainly). I think what Craig says is true, basically it's a gamble and only experience will decide whether they are the 4mm option for you. Financial outlay needn't be OTT for a micro layout. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted November 22, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2011 Ian, I don't know where you live, but as you're a member of the Scalefour Society you will be able to find out whether there's an Area Group near you. If there is, I suggest that you contact them and go along to one of their meetings. I'm confident that you'll get a warm and friendly welcome and that you'll get a frank appraisal of the pros and cons of Scalefour there as well as any help you'll need in getting started should you choose to go down that road. It's also a good way of getting started without having to spend a lot of money - if you decide to build a wagon kit to P4 standards, for example, there will someone in the group who will have a layout you can try it out on to see if it works (and if it doesn't, there will always be plenty of advice, both practical and theoretical, as to why it doesn't and what you have to do to put it right!) DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2011 You could also draw the conclusion that the EM guys were modelling to their standards, whereas the S4 guys were merely talking about theirs. Hard to tell without actually being there. Kevin Martin But the OP said that the EM guys were heads-down and modelling, and only engaging with the public when it interrupted their modelling - from this description (and from my own personal acquaintance with some of the gents that man the S4 Soc stand these days), I'd say that the S4Soc would appear to offer a more approachable presence.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2011 Ian, I don't know where you live, but as you're a member of the Scalefour Society you will be able to find out whether there's an Area Group near you. If there is, I suggest that you contact them and go along to one of their meetings. I'm confident that you'll get a warm and friendly welcome and that you'll get a frank appraisal of the pros and cons of Scalefour there as well as any help you'll need in getting started should you choose to go down that road. This is very good advice. Whilst informed and constructive debate on RMWeb can be very helpful, I don't think you can beat visiting a friendly group of local modellers and seeing the real thing, close up. And in our local group in South Devon, for example, you'll certainly find folk who model in more than one gauge, and who would happily explain and illustrate the pros and cons of both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2011 There's one other point I will make at this juncture. Sometimes, the so-called advantages of R-T-R in OO can work against you. I refer specifically to the fact that some steam loco flanges on at least one major R-T-R manufacturer appear to be foul of scale chaired trackwork, and strike/ride over the inside chairs on C&L track. This has been a problem for my OO activities, in one case resulting in an order for replacement Alan Gibson driving wheels in OO, in another case, I have built a completely new brass chassis (again in OO) for a recent R-T-R steam loco. Knowing that the wheels must be replaced in P4 certainly gets you planning in advance any additional work that you may want to do on a R-T-R release. I'm glad I made the change to P4 (8 years ago). Some things are not much harder than OO finescale, other aspects will require more work (such as rolling stock compensation or springing). This additional work need not necessarily be difficult, but I do find that there are some tasks where I need to have my wits about me all the time (as opposed to OO being a bit more forgiving)... If comparing the time to build a layout in OO or P4 (I don't have personal experience of EM), some things will take you exactly the same amount of time, such as buildings and scenery, electrics, baseboards etc. Some things could take longer, depending on your confidence and experience, such as building the track. Some things definitely take longer, by definition, such as rolling stock (on the assumption that you don't need to install compensation or springing in OO, but you do in P4, certainly for longer wheelbase stuff). Diesels don't take any longer to convert than EM, but steam locos with any kind of valve gear can take quite a lot of time to set the valve gear up correctly and ensure smooth running. Whilst not commenting on the prototypical accuracy of 'Romford' type wheels, I have always found it easier to use these in OO than having to quarter Gibson or Ultrascale wheels when working in P4 - perhaps that's one of those tasks where you 'need to have your wits about you'. The lack of a self-quartering steam loco driving wheel in P4 is one of the biggest things I miss when compared with OO (roll on the Gibson self-quartering wheels!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 And would the possible advent of RTR P4 locos influence their decision? Are we speaking hypothetically, factually or hopefully? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I work in EM but I have also collaborated in the building of OO finescale layouts. I can confirm the comments made above about people not being able to tell the difference between OO, EM and P4. I often get asked at exhibitions what standard layouts are built to. The thing I always notice is that you rarely see a large P4 layout at exhibitions. Most of them are small shunting layouts with not a lot of track or stock. I suspect this is because it takes a lot more work to build a P4 layout - and not just the track - no matter what version you work in the track should always be laid to the highest possible standard - I suspect it is the work required to build the stock and get it to run well that is the real challenge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 billbedford, on 22 November 2011 - 11:52 , said: And would the possible advent of RTR P4 locos influence their decision? Are we speaking hypothetically, factually or hopefully? Hopefully... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 You could also draw the conclusion that the EM guys were modelling to their standards, whereas the S4 guys were merely talking about theirs. Hard to tell without actually being there. Kevin Martin (my bold) Indeed it is, and therefore the point is academic, perhaps I should have added that there were examples of P4 work on the stand to peruse and examine - and plenty of it too - its just that the guys were not working on it in order to be able to converse with people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Are we speaking hypothetically, factually or hopefully? Work progresses, all be it with many interruptions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 I work in EM but I have also collaborated in the building of OO finescale layouts. I can confirm the comments made above about people not being able to tell the difference between OO, EM and P4. I often get asked at exhibitions what standard layouts are built to. The thing I always notice is that you rarely see a large P4 layout at exhibitions. Most of them are small shunting layouts with not a lot of track or stock. I suspect this is because it takes a lot more work to build a P4 layout - and not just the track - no matter what version you work in the track should always be laid to the highest possible standard - I suspect it is the work required to build the stock and get it to run well that is the real challenge. Mostyn and Charlotte Road are the two decent size roundy P4 layouts that spring to mind that have been on the exhibition circuit. Its taken us 2 years to relay Slattocks Junction in the Manchester club to two main circuit running and that is an 18x14 layout that is worked on at Monday nights. I wouldn;t say it would have been any quicker in EM though 00 would possibly allow Peco points in the fiddleyard. The issue probably is more stock related though P4 ideally does need a 3'6 minimum which we have on the inner lines and outer main lines have a 4' minimum which will probably be the minimum i'll be able to get some of my longer stuff round when done. Watching a Jubilee with 16 on race around it 2 days after i''d wired up the circuit for the first time was rather satisfactory though . The big P4 layout craze is starting quietly in the background, there are a few layouts out there slowly being finished off. This has also been converted from EM to P4 - Ambergate - Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 .....If they were starting out on their finescale modelling career today, as the OP is, would they choose EM or P4?.... ...and would I still be single or into my third marriage, would I have a well paid job or being made redundant for the nth time....... would I be in the model railway Club I was 30+ years ago and the friends I had around me then, or as I am now poor sight, low income, and not near the sort of modellers I would be happy with - (It would be nice to be with Capt. Kernow's group). ....and if I had bought the Austin 7 Ulster in bits from the chap at Weyhill in 1972, what then (Le Mans, Goodwood Revival).... I admit a good question, but who knows, though I think a lot of people in my village would enjoy the 'staid' reference, especially when a few of us have another night walking back from the Rugby Club in PZ, following a great night's gig etc., etc., Or our activities in the village Pantomime, I am were I am, the finger having writ moves on, nowt can be erased. I'm fortunate to have known many of the finescale modellers of the past, Geoff Williams, Peter Denny etc., and those still going like Tudor Watkins, John Degg, Bill Wood, Mike Bird, John Miles.... The gauge hasn't mattered, it's the skills we shared that bonds us together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Mike Bird! Top man, helped me on my way as a young un in the Cardiff 4mm group, could turn out anything from the Russel books in a matter of days! And dont try and out drink him either (well not as a 17 year old!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 You could also draw the conclusion that the EM guys were modelling to their standards, whereas the S4 guys were merely talking about theirs. Hard to tell without actually being there. Kevin Martin We had our work on display Kevin. I would have brought a baseboard, on the Saturday if they weren't so flipping big and heavy! As for the large p4 layouts thing I present you... Calcutta sidings 2 under test. The smallest of our 3 being a full 20 feet shorter (in length - 40 feet in a lap) shorter than both New St and Tring will be. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted November 22, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2011 May I add something to the thread? Pulling out OO RTR wheels to convert to EM sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately in my experience, far too many OO RTR locos ( both steam and D&E ) tends to wobble on the track and rolling roads due to eccentricity of the wheels on the axles so these eccentric wheels will need replacing anyway whatever 4mm gauge one models with. My personal feeling is that if I need to replace the wheels and build my own track anyway, why not go the whole hog and use P4? This is the one reason I'm seriously looking into P4 rather than EM. Oh and RTR P4 locos? It would be nice but I think Maggie Thatcher will join the NUM before this happens! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flymo748 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Oh and RTR P4 locos? It would be nice but I think Maggie Thatcher will join the NUM before this happens! And also to AndyY who asked the same question in a different way... Yes, it's something that the Scalefour Society has seriously looked at. Bizarrely, one of the key constraints is not that it is P4, but that you lot are fussy bu**ers! So you want a nice simple 0-6-0? 57XX, Jinty or 08? Do you want it in GWR or BR colours? Or BR green or BR blue? If you're only making (say) ten of them, and you are tying up a fair chunk of Society member' funds in the process, then you want to get the mix right rather than have them sat on a shelf. Of course, they would be more expensive than the OO examples as the wheelsets and labour would add to it. However we don't feel that they would be unaffordable. However another killer would be that we would have include in the price 20% VAT on top of certain component costs due to the "small supplier" culture that it is necessary to deal with. And that's not a dig at small suppliers by the way, as they really are our lifeblood. However it makes acting as an intermediary in a sales chain a tricky prospect. So i won't say "imminently", and I won't say "never". If the commercial proposition stacks up, we will be there. As a comparison, I understand that the S7 boys are coordinating some S7 RTR locomotives but these are being produced in numbers of less than the fingers of one hand. If the Scalefour Society knew that it could sell 100 of a particular locomotive, we would get it out there. Until we can, drop by the Forum or at the exhibition Stand and have a chat about starting in P4 and what you can easily do. Cheers Paul Willis Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 May I add something to the thread? Pulling out OO RTR wheels to convert to EM sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately in my experience, far too many OO RTR locos ( both steam and D&E ) tends to wobble on the track and rolling roads due to eccentricity of the wheels on the axles so these eccentric wheels will need replacing anyway whatever 4mm gauge one models with. My personal feeling is that if I need to replace the wheels and build my own track anyway, why not go the whole hog and use P4? This is the one reason I'm seriously looking into P4 rather than EM. Oh and RTR P4 locos? It would be nice but I think Maggie Thatcher will join the NUM before this happens! Is there such a thing as the "NUM" anymore? Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 ..... the EM guys were modelling to their standards, whereas the S4 guys were merely talking about theirs.... There's nothing quite like a stereotype, is there? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 There's nothing quite like a stereotype, is there? Don't go there Ivan, in case we start on about the horsey set. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Russ (mines a pint) Posted November 22, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 22, 2011 I have a question for all those who have been happy with their EM modelling for the last quarter century:- If they were starting out on their finescale modelling career today, as the OP is, would they choose EM or P4? ie would they go for the safe and slightly staid world of EM or the exciting leap into the unknown world of P4? Although I have not been modelling for a quarter of a century.... Does anyone actually see it that way? -When I was considering the benefits it did not really occur to me, nor did I really care which set of standards had been around the longest, or what people thought of them. My main consideration was to get better looking track in a way that worked for me? Although I have now transferred to 2mm, I would probably still stick with EM in 4mm scale on grounds of costs, time & space. One thing (unless someone is prepared to prove me wrong) on grounds of space is that you can revert to OO geometry (except very tight curves) with no ill effects in unseen/less noticeable areas if space is tight, And would the possible advent of RTR P4 locos influence their decision? maybe, if it ever happened? -though my own circumstances means I am committed to 2mm on space grounds for the forseeable future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted November 23, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2011 (my bold) Indeed it is, and therefore the point is academic, perhaps I should have added that there were examples of P4 work on the stand to peruse and examine - and plenty of it too - its just that the guys were not working on it in order to be able to converse with people. Yes, but I made my comment merely on the information offered. If you or others take it as some sort of blight either way (and some clearly have taken it as anti P4), then that is something read into it that wasn't intended. To me, it would seem that at the time you attended, the EM group were working on their project, and the P4 group were talking to punters. If you attended at different times you may well have found the opposite to be true. I do wish this pointless EM vs. P4 battle would stop, IMO all it does is put people off. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 To me, it would seem that at the time you attended, the EM group were working on their project, and the P4 group were talking to punters. If you attended at different times you may well have found the opposite to be true. Kevin Martin The new approach to the Scalefour stand is to do away with people doing hands on modelling and make it more about engaging with people about the gauges and what's on offer. It seems to have worked as the society got 8 new members over the weekend and possibly makes the stand more approachable than someone with a soldering iron. There is a view of the stand below: http://scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1666&sid=ba96b7dcfb317370583c62be5d1d2587 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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