Lack of contemporary layouts on the exhibition circuit

[cromptonnut]

Anybody got a photo of a scratchbuilt Class 66 to show us?

 

A work in progress....?

 

[t-b-g]

 

A work in progress....?

 

Brilliant, I shall convert Leighton Buzzard to a single track bus shelter line as soon as I get home from Wakefield

[beast66606]

Note sure if I should risk the wrath of the "likers" by disagreeing again but hey, I might get some likes one day so ...

 

Hopefully we are all sitting calmly now and can continue with this rather interesting debate.

 

Agreed.

 

Nowadays, everybody can have a brilliant model just by opening a box.

 

Everybody can have an out of the box item, they are not all "brilliant" without some work, couplings, pipes, weathering, renumbering, lights, sound etc. still need to be done, no different from the good old days (which I was also part of)

 

I am going to give another personal view now (so I hope that I get away with it) but when I go to a show, I prefer to see models that people have made, or at least had to put some personal effort into, rather than something that they have bought and is so good they don't need to do anything to it. I can go to a model shop if I want to see that. I don't have to pay to get in there!

 

All views are personal, mine is as valid as yours.

 

Unless you scratch build everything there will always be some degree of shop bought, you obviously have an interest in one aspect of modelling, others have other interests, be that weathering, renumbering, fitting correct couplings, whatever, I'm afraid this is a a rather narrow view of modern modellers - and applies equally to most models of any time period.

 

Looking around Wakefield show today, it struck me that there are a number of very attractive layouts (from various periods and parts of the world) running pretty much all RTR locos and stock. However, pretty much all the layouts where locos and stock have been built are from the steam era and British steam at that.

 

Possibly true and I would suggest that plenty of steam layouts had ready to run (even modified) items too, but were they truly out of the box or did they not have much done to alter them, there is a difference, but I prefer the "lots of work" approach

 

This could mean that the stock (bought RTR) on one modern layout can be fairly similar to the stock on another modern layout and it may influence exhibition managers in their choice of how many such layouts to invite.

 

If that was the case then a lot of steam layouts (as you go on to say) would also be in the same boat so I suggest that's not the case - unless it's a show that does not rely on the public then it makes no odds, the young lad who we had operating our layout at Merseyside loved it, and his mum didn't seem bothered it was "simply" a weathered Bachmann Voyager he was driving and he went away more than happy, he could relate to the modern stuff and spent over an hour operating the layout.

 

The same could also apply to the stock on a steam layout. But in that era, right through the blue diesel period, most regions had their own distinctive loco and stock types, so a Deltic meant ECML, a Western meant ex GWR and a 33 or Electrodiesel meant Southern etc. So you could have three blue diesel period layouts, or more, each with quite distinctive stock, creating a sense of place.

 

Westerns got to Chester, 26s got to the Wirral, Deltics got to Liverpool so it's not quite so straight forward although I guess for the majority who don't have depth of knowledge that is a good guideline but again "mum" is not really going to care if the Deltic is running at speed through a South Wales branch line, as long as little Johnny is smiling - or at least not crying.

 

I wonder if it becomes harder to create a sense of place, perhaps atmosphere, through the stock on a truly modern layout. Even many things like signals, fences, buildings etc that gave away the original geography of the place have been replaced by standard items that appear all over the country.

 

Standardisation has been around for years, an LNWR signal is an LNWR signal be it at Euston or at Carlisle (and the same applies for most, it not all companies, aside from the real one offs), if I showed you a photo could you tell where it was taken from the signal alone ? buildings could be of a local influence or construction but again standardisation was the norm where possible. For those who know, colour lights had signatures, different ones being provided for different schemes over the years, so a signal for Reading is different from a signal for West Hampstead, as are the structures.which control them.

 

I know that ECML trains are not the same as WCML trains etc, but when you get off the main lines onto the freight workings, they really don't seem to vary very much from one part of the country to another.

 

The loco may be a 66* but there is plenty of variety in the train if you care to look,

 

*and the locos aren't all 66s, in my area I get 66s, 37s, 47s, 90s, to name a few.

 

I hope that I haven't trodden on anybody's toes (and I apologise in advance if I have) but I have just tried to put forward a thought on why creating a truly modern layout that excites the imagination of others, including exibition managers, might not be as easy as opening the latest Bachmann/Hornby boxes and running them on Peco track (because they do it with concrete sleepers).

 

Personally (and like you I am expressing my own view) I am left cold by most steam layouts, they are chocolate box, inaccurate models of an imagination, not the real thing.

 

We have no problem "exciting" others with our layout, public like it, modellers like it, professional rail men like it and the nicest comments was "this is the best operated and signalled layout I have seen for a long long time" - from the old signalling manager at Wembley, who just happens to have a lot to do with signalling at Pendon, a man who knows his subject as well as most - these are the opinions which are most valued.

 

That combination could easily create a truly satisfying layout for any particular individual and would save many hours/weeks/months/years of modelling time in any era/scale or gauge. Having an excess of such layouts at an exhibition possibly won't inspire folk like me, who prefer to see things that people have made.

 

Fair enough, we all have differing view points but I would suggest that exhibition managers don't target your preferences (the successful ones I know don't anyway), they target the "general" audience

 

Anybody got a photo of a scratchbuilt Class 66 to show us? I would consider myself a born again modern era convert!

 

There is an argument that reinventing a round wheel is a pointless exercise, just because a layout has a lot of RTR doesn't make it bad anymore than one with a lot of kits/scratch built makes it good - I've seen plenty of abysmally assembled kits and even worse scratch building - however I like to think my modelling can be appreciated and just because I choose to weather, light, sound fit, renumber a Bachmann 66 shouldn't mean I get disparaging looks - or should it ?

[newbryford]

 

I wonder if it becomes harder to create a sense of place, perhaps atmosphere, through the stock on a truly modern layout. Even many things like signals, fences, buildings etc that gave away the original geography of the place have been replaced by standard items that appear all over the country. I know that ECML trains are not the same as WCML trains etc, but when you get off the main lines onto the freight workings, they really don't seem to vary very much from one part of the country to another.

 

 

An interesting viewpoint.

I can appreciate that most freight being 66 hauled does possibly lead to a non-descript "sense of place", but we make every effort to run trains on Blackmil that are mostly relevant to our area modelled (modeller's license excepted, but that, IMO, applies to virtually everybody's trainset).

 

We run Castle Cement JPA cement tankers, but won't run Lafarge JPA's. 66111 is the usual model power as it's often fronted the real thing (soon to be replaced with 66101 in DBS red [cue trainspotter mode] as I have the photos.........) The bitumen train is a fair representation of the Preston Docks-Lindsey 6E32, although very recently the tanks were replaced with new stock. The engineers trains have been inspired by 6K05 Carlisle-Crewe (via Blackburn). Other freights are appropriate to the area with possibly the nuke flasks being the exception, but they pass through nearby on the WCML. Even the RHTT is faithful to Blackburn.

 

If you look carefully, the passenger stock is predominantly Northern Rail, with the odd Central creeping in. Recent developments on my own local line have seen Arriva and London Midland units on short-term hire or transferred in, but I assure you if these are modelled, we will make every effort to renumber them to the prototype. Virgin Voyagers are regulars on Blackmill - I'm pretty certain that every Voyager (and incidentally most Pendolinos being dragged by VT 57/3's) has passed through Blackburn (and therefore Blackmill) on WCML diversionary services

 

Even the road vehicles are relevant - Blackburn Transport and Lancashire United buses. Fagan & Whalley are local hauliers, along with the ubiquitous Eddie Stobart.

 

We won't run SWT stock or other "foreign" stock, unless justified - although 158888 was a short-term visitor to the area last year.

 

For anyone familiar with the modern scene, they will readily identify our "sense of place" as North-West England, without any doubt. Especially if they listen to our my East Lancashire accent.

 

A couple of the underbridges are modelled upon those within the Daisyfield area of Blackburn. When pointed out to local viewers, they certainly recognise the "sense of place"

 

We have a particular building on the layout that is readily identifiable to viewers from the Blackburn area. It's the mill modelled by Les Green. Many locals recognise the building, but can't exactly place it, until they're reminded that Les has turned it round to fit the layout location! That means a "sense of place" to me.

 

"Sense of place" is only relevant if you know the area, be it from a buildings, road vehicles, railway rolling stock, or any other point of view.

 

And I'm sure that most, if not all, of the layouts mentioned in the thread above, are making every effort to create their own "sense of place"

 

Cheers,

Mick

[t-b-g]

Note sure if I should risk the wrath of the "likers" by disagreeing again but hey, I might get some likes one day so ...

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

Everybody can have an out of the box item, they are not all "brilliant" without some work, couplings, pipes, weathering, renumbering, lights, sound etc. still need to be done, no different from the good old days (which I was also part of)

 

 

 

All views are personal, mine is as valid as yours.

 

Unless you scratch build everything there will always be some degree of shop bought, you obviously have an interest in one aspect of modelling, others have other interests, be that weathering, renumbering, fitting correct couplings, whatever, I'm afraid this is a a rather narrow view of modern modellers - and applies equally to most models of any time period.

 

 

 

Possibly true and I would suggest that plenty of steam layouts had ready to run (even modified) items too, but were they truly out of the box or did they not have much done to alter them, there is a difference, but I prefer the "lots of work" approach

 

 

 

If that was the case then a lot of steam layouts (as you go on to say) would also be in the same boat so I suggest that's not the case - unless it's a show that does not rely on the public then it makes no odds, the young lad who we had operating our layout at Merseyside loved it, and his mum didn't seem bothered it was "simply" a weathered Bachmann Voyager he was driving and he went away more than happy, he could relate to the modern stuff and spent over an hour operating the layout.

 

 

 

Westerns got to Chester, 26s got to the Wirral, Deltics got to Liverpool so it's not quite so straight forward although I guess for the majority who don't have depth of knowledge that is a good guideline but again "mum" is not really going to care if the Deltic is running at speed through a South Wales branch line, as long as little Johnny is smiling - or at least not crying.

 

 

 

Standardisation has been around for years, an LNWR signal is an LNWR signal be it at Euston or at Carlisle (and the same applies for most, it not all companies, aside from the real one offs), if I showed you a photo could you tell where it was taken from the signal alone ? buildings could be of a local influence or construction but again standardisation was the norm where possible. For those who know, colour lights had signatures, different ones being provided for different schemes over the years, so a signal for Reading is different from a signal for West Hampstead, as are the structures.which control them.

 

 

 

The loco may be a 66* but there is plenty of variety in the train if you care to look,

 

*and the locos aren't all 66s, in my area I get 66s, 37s, 47s, 90s, to name a few.

 

 

 

Personally (and like you I am expressing my own view) I am left cold by most steam layouts, they are chocolate box, inaccurate models of an imagination, not the real thing.

 

We have no problem "exciting" others with our layout, public like it, modellers like it, professional rail men like it and the nicest comments was "this is the best operated and signalled layout I have seen for a long long time" - from the old signalling manager at Wembley, who just happens to have a lot to do with signalling at Pendon, a man who knows his subject as well as most - these are the opinions which are most valued.

 

 

 

Fair enough, we all have differing view points but I would suggest that exhibition managers don't target your preferences (the successful ones I know don't anyway)

 

 

 

There is an argument that reinventing a round wheel is a pointless exercise, just because a layout has a lot of RTR doesn't make it bad anymore than one with a lot of kits/scratch built makes it good - I've seen plenty of abysmally assembled kits and even worse scratch building - however I like to think my modelling can be appreciated and just because I choose to weather, light, sound fit, renumber a Bachmann 66 shouldn't mean I get disparaging looks - or should it ?

 

OK, you win.... I give up! Happy now? Can't even be bothered finding the emoticon of the head banging on a wall. From now on, any thread that you post on will manage without me.

[Edwin_m]

Nowadays, everybody can have a brilliant model just by opening a box. I am going to give another personal view now (so I hope that I get away with it) but when I go to a show, I prefer to see models that people have made, or at least had to put some personal effort into, rather than something that they have bought and is so good they don't need to do anything to it. I can go to a model shop if I want to see that. I don't have to pay to get in there!

 

That is another interesting thought. Practically all the contemporary locos and DMUs are available RTR and are probably cheaper and better quality than most of us could produce ourselves, and for this reason there are hardly any kits so scratchbuilding would be the only alternative. The existence of these RTR models does of course prove that many people are interested in modelling the contemporary railway!

 

RTR has of course also supplanted kitbuilding and scratchbuilding for earlier eras to some extent, but the greater diversity of prototype and the lesser "mass appeal" of modelling the earlier eras means RTR has much less coverage.

 

It perhaps cuts both ways though. Being able to get most of your trains out of boxes should leave more time available for building the actual layout, and as Beast points out there is a lot of customisation of rolling stock short of actual scratchbuilding. For those who fancy the challenge of building there own, there are plenty of EMUs to go at (but RTR is spreading here too, so perhaps not for long?).

 

So the availability of RTR is a reason why contemporary layouts may be less interesting to some people, but also ought to be a reason why contemporary layouts of exhibition standard are more easily attainable.

 

As to geographical diversity, the train types may be more widespread but the mix of passenger train liveries probably makes it easier to "place" a layout by looking at the rolling stock today than at any time since the Thirties! As newbryford points out, even in today's rather homogenised environment there are pointers in the architecture (and sometimes also in the geology) that identify a particular region.

[t-b-g]

 

An interesting viewpoint.

I can appreciate that most freight being 66 hauled does possibly lead to a non-descript "sense of place", but we make every effort to run trains on Blackmil that are mostly relevant to our area modelled (modeller's license excepted, but that, IMO, applies to virtually everybody's trainset).

 

We run Castle Cement JPA cement tankers, but won't run Lafarge JPA's. 66111 is the usual model power as it's often fronted the real thing (soon to be replaced with 66101 in DBS red as I have the photos.........) The bitumen train is a fair representation of the Preston Docks-Lindsey 6E32, although very recently the tanks were replaced with new stock. The engineers trains have been inspired by 6K05 Carlisle-Crewe (via Blackburn). Other freights are appropriate to the area with possibly the nuke flasks being the exception, but they pass through nearby on the WCML. Even the RHTT is faithful to Blackburn.

 

If you look carefully, the passenger stock is predominantly Northern Rail, with the odd Central creeping in. Recent developments on my own local line have seen Arriva and London Midland units, but I assure you if these are modelled, we will make every effort to renumber them to the prototype. Virgin Voyagers are regulars on Blackmill - I'm pretty certain that every Voyager has passed through Blackburn (and therefore Blackmill) on WCML diversionary services

 

Even the road vehicles are relevant - Blackburn transport and Lancashire United. Fagan & Whalley are local hauliers, along with the ubiquitous Eddie Stobart.

 

We won't run SWT stock or other "foreign" stock, unless justified - although 158888 was a short-term visitor to the area last year.

 

For anyone familiar with the modern scene, they will readily identify our "sense of place" as North-West England, without any doubt.

 

A couple of the underbridges are modelled upon those within the Daisyfield area of Blackburn. When pointed out to local viewers, they certainly recognise the "sense of place"

 

We have a particular building on the layout that is readily identifiable to viewers from the Blackburn area. It's the mill modelled by Les Green. Many locals recognise the building, but can't exactly place it, until they're reminded that Les has turned it round to fit the layout location! That means a "sense of place" to me.

 

"Sense of place" is only relevant if you know the area, be it from a buildings, road vehicles, railway rolling stock, or any other point of view.

 

And I'm sure that most, if not all, of the layouts mentioned in the thread above, are making every effort to create their own "sense of place"

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I saw Blackmill at Halifax and thought it was a very good example of what a modern layout should be like. It does indeed have a sense of place, probably more than any other modern layout I have seen in the flesh.

 

You certainly had a good crowd round you, which means you must be doing something right! I seem to recall that some nice kit built items were running too.

 

I am not quite as single minded and blinkered as some people are trying to make out! I am dipping out of this thread now because a certain party has made his mind up that everything I write is to be pulled to pieces but didn't want to go without saying "nice layout!" . I am happy to recognize good modelling even if it isn't something that I am interested in myself. It was an interesting debate until somebody spoiled it.

 

Cheers,

 

Tony

['CHARD]

I'm rather sad that despite an earlier intervention from Andy, this thread - which has been thought-provoking - is now switching people off, myself included, because it has become a succession of posts that quote previous essays in full, alternating with critiques and deconstructions of the other's posts, literally dismantled line by line.

 

IIRC, last time we dismantled something line by line we alienated half the railway enthusiasts who weren't so interested in what we had left at the end of it.

[beast66606]

 

OK, you win.... I give up! Happy now? Can't even be bothered finding the emoticon of the head banging on a wall. From now on, any thread that you post on will manage without me.

 

To be honest your arrogance is astounding, you make some points, some right, some wrong - do you expect every one to bow down and agree with everything you say ?

Take your childish tantrums elsewhere.

['CHARD]

He already boldly went.

[PMP]

 

To be honest your arrogance is astounding, you make some points, some right, some wrong - do you expect every one to bow down and agree with everything you say ?

Take your childish tantrums elsewhere.

 

You might do well to follow your own advice - highlighted for your own benefit.

[queensquare]

 

To be honest your arrogance is astounding, you make some points, some right, some wrong - do you expect every one to bow down and agree with everything you say ?

Take your childish tantrums elsewhere.

 

Have to say I agree wih Chard that breaking down a post line by line is not necessary. I thought t-b-g made some valid points in a very reasoned manor and I agree with much of what he said. I find your contributions [beast66606] not particularly helpful and needlessly agressive. My last word in this thread.

 

Jerry

[Guest Max Stafford]

FFS guys give it a rest, you're starting to boil my p155 with all this intellectual w1lly waving!

 

Some folks like modern layouts, some prefer earlier vintages as I do.

Neither camp will change the other so can we either;

 

A: Accept that we have different opinions on what makes an interesting model.

 

or

 

B: Shut the **** up.

 

Dave.

[beast66606]

 

Have to say I agree wih Chard that breaking down a post line by line is not necessary. I thought t-b-g made some valid points in a very reasoned manor and I agree with much of what he said. I find your contributions [beast66606] not particularly helpful and needlessly agressive. My last word in this thread.

 

Jerry

 

Sorry, I didn't realise we had to agree with everything everyone else said.

[Guest Natalie Graham]

The train of contemporary container wagons posted earlier looked very impressive. I am sure it would be an interesting subject to model if your interests run to detailing r-t-r stock. But once you have built it what do you do with it? That train won't stop at wayside stations to drop off a few of those containers and pick up some empty ones. It will run from one large depot to another. Now if you want to model a through line and watch the trains run that train would be every bit as interesting, maybe more so, as if you used, for example, the r-t-r LNWR 0-8-0 and associated wooden bodied open wagons and vans.

 

That is the limitaion of contemporary modelling, its major appeal is to those who want to build a layout on which to watch the trains run. If your interests are in building a layout which features shunting, pasenger trains being remarshalled and so on then the further back in time you go the more scope for that exists. There is also the issue that has been mentioned that most of the contemporary stock is available ready to run. Great if that is your interest but there is little in the current scene to attract those whose interest lies in kit and/or scratchbuilding. This isn't about one period being somehow 'better' than another but is the reality that the contemporary scene is unlikley to appeal to as wide a range of modellers as more historic periods.This will reflect in both the availability and appreciation of current image layouts.

 

The ready availability of out of the box contemporary models also has another unfortunate consequence with regard to exhibition layouts. While a well executed layout will be the equal as one of an earlier era it is too easy to produce layouts which simply feature the same r-t-r stock enlessly circulating around a baseboard crowded with track. How many variations on the same out of the box Hornby and Bachmann stock will exibituion managers want to invite? Indeed how many variations are even possible?

 

I guess the question as to why there is a percieved shortage of contemporary layouts is indicative that the interest, inspiration and possibilities for such layouts is limited. If this was not the case the layouts would be there.