Lack of contemporary layouts on the exhibition circuit

[m0rris]

What goes round, comes round. Every generation I've known, starting from those who lamented the passing of steam, has said the current scene isnt as interesting as the one it grew up with (and no doubt the same thing applied at Nationalisation and the Grouping).

 

As someone who is growing up as "this generation" I feel that the old Chinese curse of "May you live in interesting times" is particularly relevent here. In this case I think the railway scene is so varied, different and changeable it makes it hard to model "today".

[Catkins]

 

As someone who is growing up as "this generation" I feel that the old Chinese curse of "May you live in interesting times" is particularly relevent here. In this case I think the railway scene is so varied, different and changeable it makes it hard to model "today".

 

As a representative of "this generation", what era do you model in, and as a result what have you learn't through your research?

After all no one has considered the ease of available research materials for 20th century eras.

[m0rris]

I currently model the distant past... diesel transition/hydraulics on the GWML. This driven by the fact that my rake of MK1s can be used over a 20 year period which gives me alot of bang for my limited buck. It must be noted that I want to model today but I can't can't get the right liveries on all of my stock - FGW dynamic lines for someone with little repainting experience would be no mean feat and I have not got the spare cash to potentially waste on it. Also you often have to move like the wind to get your rakes of suitable stock and locos - FGW HSTs for example - which requires alot of capital to be found in a relatively short period ot time.

 

A major draw towards the modern era since, like all/most on here, I can use the internet well enough is the fact that you could probably find photos of most movements on the line - photos of regular moves and anything exceptional. Driven by digital photography and the proliferation of video and conventonal cameras. There is so much more free material out there for this decade than those further in the past - it allows you to develop and challenge ideas much more easily, quickly and for less money.

[Catkins]

I understand what you are getting at m0rris, and I think that it hits the nail right on the head with regards to the thread, but I'm going to throw another spanner in the works here, if the two main issues are the need to change stock and the costs involved, then it can be said that the same issues impact on layouts such as Stoke Summit or Runswick Leamside - both layouts required a large roster, but with Stoke, I saw it at Grantham running steam, and six months later I saw it at Nottingham running Pre-TOPS diesels, with Runswick Leamside (I never got to see that one) the club got the layout to a believable point in time (Mid 1990's was its latest I think) but then the time came to retire the layout and it seems that most of the stock belonged to club members.

 

Caveat, I am more than willing to be corrected on any points I have mentioned with Stoke or Runswick - there are far more knowledgable people here.

[iL Dottore]

Let me add a few more coals to the fire...

 

Ignoring the term "contemporary" for a minute (although I think it's a good way of describing anything prototypical of the last 2 - 3 years) "modern image" is a broad church and I think more often defined by childhood exposure and memories than any easily definable chronological cut off point. For example, I would consider ER 1960s Liverpool Street EMUs as modern image, as much as I would consider a Class 66 or Desiro EMU "modern image". 'Cos when I was a boy, the EMUs I took to go to Liverpool St WERE modern traction.

 

As to why there aren't many modern image/contemporary layouts on the exhibition circuit, in addition to the reasons given above (pauses to put on composite hemet and Kevlar protective gear) perhaps it is because to many (including EMs) post 1980s rolling stock is quite colourless and (dare I say it?) without character (much like most of the contemporary cars have no character). A Deltic or Class 50 have character and (possibly) personality, Mk 1 coaches and Mk 1 derived rolling stock have character). Something don't think can be applied to Pacers, Pendolinos or even Class 66s (although the jury's still out on that one. I think they have some character). I would argue that of all the passenger rolling stock running today, only the class 125 DMUs have any character.... So what's the solution?

 

I don't know, but perhaps - if you model contemporary UK Railways - concentrating on goods trains (lots of interesting things happening, methinks) or placing a smaller amount of railway within a much larger diorama of an urban or suburban scene, might pique the interest of EMs

 

F

[newbryford]

I've never used the "like" button in a thread as much before.............

 

 

As to why there aren't many modern image/contemporary layouts on the exhibition circuit, in addition to the reasons given above (pauses to put on composite hemet and Kevlar protective gear) perhaps it is because to many (including EMs) post 1980s rolling stock is quite colourless

 

Colourless? What planet are you living on? One of the reasons given above for the lack of current layouts is the quantity and complexity of colour schemes.......

 

 

and (dare I say it?) without character (much like most of the contemporary cars have no character). A Deltic or Class 50 have character and (possibly) personality, Mk 1 coaches and Mk 1 derived rolling stock have character).

 

Even when they're all painted the same shade of drab blue with huge slabs of yellow on the ends? And as for blue/grey coaches........

 

 

Something don't think can be applied to Pacers, Pendolinos or even Class 66s (although the jury's still out on that one. I think they have some character). I would argue that of all the passenger rolling stock running today, only the class 125 DMUs have any character.... So what's the solution?

 

 

A 142 bouncing along the East Lancs line has character (some may question my character after that remark!) Pendos sweeping up the Lune Valley at speeds unheard of before. 70's a t full bore on a 1 in 100 with 2000tonnes in tow. I admit 125's are quite stirring on the fast lines at Didcot.

 

Solution - there isn't one, apart from model what makes YOU happy, I guess.

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[newbryford]

I've read most of the posts in depth and whilst some very interesting points have been made, to me the most likely reason is much the same thirty years on - that the people who most want to see this type of layout to exhibitable standard are the ones who because of youth, inexperience, lack of cash or skills, are least likely or able to build them

 

 

Ian - that's pretty much the same conclusion that I've come to. I would also add into this the time factor, as there's got be some lag between seeing the real thing and modelling it. Although that's probably not too much of an excuse for locos, bearing in mind that EWS 66's have been around on the real thing for abou13 years now with relatively speaking, few modifications or extra paintjobs.

 

Wherever possible, but there are exceptions, I try and model something that I hope is going to be around for at least 5 years on the prototype scene. A couple of locos in the pipeline are DBS red, for example.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Armchair Modeller]

Let me add a few more coals to the fire...

 

Ignoring the term "contemporary" for a minute (although I think it's a good way of describing anything prototypical of the last 2 - 3 years) "modern image" is a broad church and I think more often defined by childhood exposure and memories than any easily definable chronological cut off point. For example, I would consider ER 1960s Liverpool Street EMUs as modern image, as much as I would consider a Class 66 or Desiro EMU "modern image". 'Cos when I was a boy, the EMUs I took to go to Liverpool St WERE modern traction.

 

As to why there aren't many modern image/contemporary layouts on the exhibition circuit, in addition to the reasons given above (pauses to put on composite hemet and Kevlar protective gear) perhaps it is because to many (including EMs) post 1980s rolling stock is quite colourless and (dare I say it?) without character (much like most of the contemporary cars have no character). A Deltic or Class 50 have character and (possibly) personality, Mk 1 coaches and Mk 1 derived rolling stock have character). Something don't think can be applied to Pacers, Pendolinos or even Class 66s (although the jury's still out on that one. I think they have some character). I would argue that of all the passenger rolling stock running today, only the class 125 DMUs have any character.... So what's the solution?

 

I don't know, but perhaps - if you model contemporary UK Railways - concentrating on goods trains (lots of interesting things happening, methinks) or placing a smaller amount of railway within a much larger diorama of an urban or suburban scene, might pique the interest of EMs

 

F

 

Having lived through the late 1950s and 60s the dirt, squalor and neglect of the period is what provided the atmosphere - not the new trains. Where would rail-blue layouts be without their heavy weathering?

 

If anything it is the relative lack of such attributes in the contemporary scene that makes contemporary layouts more challenging (though there are still exceptions, of course).

 

Just give it time - they will come in due course, though the immense variety of franchise liveries may make it more difficult unless people plan well ahead and buy their stock whenever it is available.

[m0rris]

Catkins I think you hint at the answer in your post. Those railways are done in such a way because they were able to work together as a club to do create a multi era layout that could be from the 1960s or the 2000s. A group of members could run their favorite 1960s stock, another group there BR blue etc etc. Combined spending power and wills.

[highpeak]

I think I have seen two, definately one although I can;t give the examples off the top of my head.

The late John Armstrong built a model of the diner featured in Nighthawks, an account of its construction was in Model Railroader. As I recall it was extremely faithful to the painting within the constraints of a 3-D model.

[t-b-g]

Has anybody ever seen or heard of a layout of the current railway scene, based (closely or loosely) on a real place? There are plenty of older period layouts but I don't recall seeing anything more recent the Birmingham New Street. I am genuinely interested to know if anybody has found such a place that can be modelled in a sensible space with interesting operation, copying the way the real place works.

[beast66606]

Has anybody ever seen or heard of a layout of the current railway scene, based (closely or loosely) on a real place? There are plenty of older period layouts but I don't recall seeing anything more recent the Birmingham New Street. I am genuinely interested to know if anybody has found such a place that can be modelled in a sensible space with interesting operation, copying the way the real place works.

 

That problem applies equally to any time period, I'm not sure there are "plenty of older period layouts"* although I guess it depends on what you mean by "interesting operation" and "copying the way the real place works" - not sure I've seen too many of them for any era, plenty of layouts that believe they understand how the real thing worked, but there would be plenty of signalmen looking for jobs if the prototype did it their way.

 

Widnes is loosely based on the real place, at one time it was an accurate model of it but we changed history when we put back the double track, the history change means a lot more traffic but the track plan is not that far removed from what was actually there at one stage of its life - I like to think it's operated "interestingly" and "copies how the real place <would> works"

 

I believe Blackmill is based on Blackburn.

 

 

* I don't want a list of your favourites, this isn't about those layouts

[newbryford]

 

 

I believe Blackmill is based on Blackburn.

 

 

Beast is quite correct. Part of the trackplan of Blackmill has been lifted from Blackburn. Admittedly we've renumbered the platforms 1-4 instead of Blackburn's 1,3,2,4........

.

Some of the buildings and other structures are Blackburn influenced, as is the stock that predominantly runs on it,(hence lots of Northern Rail units) but like most model railways, we employ that oft-used term "modeller's licence" to allow more operational interest.

 

Modelling a prototype location in current/contemporary form would really be difficult. It's hard work enough keeping up to date with the stock, never mind the environs.......

Cheers,

Mick

[newbryford]

Has anybody ever seen or heard of a layout of the current railway scene, based (closely or loosely) on a real place? There are plenty of older period layouts but I don't recall seeing anything more recent the Birmingham New Street. I am genuinely interested to know if anybody has found such a place that can be modelled in a sensible space with interesting operation, copying the way the real place works.

 

 

The words "sensible space" and "Birmingham New St" cannot be used in the same sentence................

 

Mick

[Will Vale]

Has anybody ever seen or heard of a layout of the current railway scene, based (closely or loosely) on a real place?

I don't know if it's close enough, but Whitemarsh (1' x 8') is based loosely on the throat of (the modern version of) Whitemoor in March. If I did it over again with an extra fiddle yard, I think it'd be possible to base it quite closely on Whitemoor Yard throat and operate it as such, the current iteration was a case of fitting prototype to plan, rather than the other way around Höllental-Hirschsprung is also "last 10 years" modern and based more closely on a real location, but it just shows passing trains - that might be considered cheating!

 

Prof. Klyzlr is very good at this kind of thing - Brooklyn 3am is based on reality, and is set in 1999, and fits in a very small space - clever stuff.

 

Will

[iL Dottore]

Colourless? What planet are you living on? One of the reasons given above for the lack of current layouts is the quantity and complexity of colour schemes.......

Perhaps the wrong choice of expression, although by colourless I did mean " lacking variety, or distinction"

Even when they're all painted the same shade of drab blue with huge slabs of yellow on the ends? And as for blue/grey coaches........

I was thinking of the variety and character of the rolling stock rather than of the paint schemes. I remember travelling back to Hampshire from Waterloo in the mid 80s on a Class 50 hauled late night train consisting of an interesting mix of different Mk1 and Mk 2 carriages and (if I recall correctly) possibly a CCT or two as well. All the same colour, granted (well more or less) but full of character and variety (and passenger comfort - when compared to contemporary rolling stock) AND modelling 1980s Class 50 diesels and Mk 1 & 2 rolling stock counts as "Modern Image" for some.

 

I'm not denigrating contemporary railways (well, not the modelling of it at any rate), just trying to find (yet another?) explanation as to why the exhibition circuit has a paucity of such layouts

[Edwin_m]

Has anybody ever seen or heard of a layout of the current railway scene, based (closely or loosely) on a real place? There are plenty of older period layouts but I don't recall seeing anything more recent the Birmingham New Street. I am genuinely interested to know if anybody has found such a place that can be modelled in a sensible space with interesting operation, copying the way the real place works.

 

Both Drem and Law Junction were mentioned earlier in this thread.

[t-b-g]

The reason that I raised the point about modelling real places is because of the way I choose subjects for layouts. Very often, a single photograph will evoke the "that would make a good model" and off I go again. I stand by my statement that I can think of many layouts based closely on real places (and I won't list them as I have been asked not to!) but in the vast majority of cases, the real places that inspired those models either a) no longer exist at all, or B) have had their facilities drastically reduced.

 

I will quote one example though.

 

I was at Retford station the other day and I challenge anybody to say that the operation there now is more interesting than it was in 1957, the period of Roy Jackson's layout.

 

The point that I am making is that the real railway has lost so much infrastructure that the number of interesting, modelable places has shrunk to a very small number. So although layouts based closely on real places have a niche in the modelling world if they are based in the past, they perhaps don't have such a place now if the real thing is copied exactly.

 

There are not that many places that have everything you would need to produce an interesting layout based in older days but there were enough to inspire some lovely layouts.

 

This is where that wonderful thing, modeller's licence, comes in. People interested in the modern scene can and do produce layouts. The successful ones incorporate a degree of creativity (modellers licence) to make the layouts more interesting operationally, in a way that modellers of previous periods probably don't need to so much.

 

There is also the challenge of modelling something that is, perhaps, a minority interest. I model pregrouping steam and I know that my layouts are not going to have something next door at a show with the same locos and stock as I have.

 

So I can see the attraction for some people and I can happily accept that a representation of the current scene is worth having at exhibitions. If there were two models of Retford, side by side at a show, one set in 1957 and one in 2011, one would have intricate pointwork and junctions and trains making connections, shunting, a huge variety of classes of locos, carriages and wagons. The other would have a limited number of different trains wooshing by and sometimes one would stop. I genuinely wonder which one would have the biggest crowd round it but my gut instinct says the modern one!

 

Having said that, I still cannot picture a single scene from the railways of today that makes me think "that would make a nice model" and sets me off wanting to build it!

[Edwin_m]

t-b-g,

 

Acton Main Line too. All large N gauge layouts, which was part of the reason I mentioned it several pages back. As Arran posted above, Law (and Drem too) is not only physically similar to the prototype (subject to selective compression etc no doubt) but also operates the same types of train. I don't know about Acton as I never saw it in original guise, it has now returned to the circuit under new ownership and as an imaginary location.

 

Retford (or indeed anywhere else) would certainly be different but trying to say which is better is comparing apples and oranges - not an objective exercise but simply down to personal taste. And I'm glad you agree that some people are interested in the contemporary railway even though it's not to your own taste!

[GC Jack]

Although my present layout is steam era I have built and exhibited two "modern image" layouts the last being Sandown on the Isle of Wight.

 

I recently operated a club modern image layout at a show and the public did enjoy seeing the latest trains.

 

There are some modern layouts - as I have said before here - that do not accurately represent the modern scene. A terminus with steam age track infrastructure, freight yards and TMD doesn't work for me, they are not based on the real world and lack atmosphere usually.

 

On both my "modern" layouts, which were operationally "brain dead", I decided to provide the interest for the public off the railway.

 

One had an old unit being broken up (based on an actual scene at the location) and the other a lifted freight yard with some derelict infrastucture in place, an old lamp, and a goods shed falling down etc. etc.

 

In essence little dioramas of the modern scene beside the basic railway. Very interesting to model.

 

Jack

[Dave Searle]

Has anybody ever seen or heard of a layout of the current railway scene, based (closely or loosely) on a real place? There are plenty of older period layouts but I don't recall seeing anything more recent the Birmingham New Street. I am genuinely interested to know if anybody has found such a place that can be modelled in a sensible space with interesting operation, copying the way the real place works.

 

Not sure if this meets your requirement of sensible space.

 

Our group were mentioned at the beginning of this thread. We're building an N gauge model of Hinksey Yard set in 2010. It's quite large (for N gauge) at 20' x 2'9" and is a club layout. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33440-hinksey-yard

 

One advantage is that, thanks to several members of RMWeb who have working knowledge of the area, we have been able to get a lot of very helpful information about the stock and operation. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33691-hinksey-yard-stock-in-2010

 

A second advantage of modelling a real place in the present day is being able to use Google Earth and Bing to see what is actually on the ground.

 

These two advantages are unfortunately not available to the pre-grouping modeller!

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[t-b-g]

 

Not sure if this meets your requirement of sensible space.

 

Our group were mentioned at the beginning of this thread. We're building an N gauge model of Hinksey Yard set in 2010. It's quite large (for N gauge) at 20' x 2'9" and is a club layout. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33440-hinksey-yard

 

One advantage is that, thanks to several members of RMWeb who have working knowledge of the area, we have been able to get a lot of very helpful information about the stock and operation. See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/33691-hinksey-yard-stock-in-2010

 

A second advantage of modelling a real place in the present day is being able to use Google Earth and Bing to see what is actually on the ground.

 

These two advantages are unfortunately not available to the pre-grouping modeller!

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

That is looking nice! Good to see some well built 2mm models that you have to do a double take on because they don't look as though they could be that small! There seems to be a few comments on this thread that 2mm is a good scale for modern layouts and I tend to agree. It certainly gives you a better chance of getting long trains running at decent speeds without looking daft by appearing on scene, taking up the length of the layout them immediately disappearing again.

 

Google earth does have uses for older modelling too. I sometimes go along the route of closed lines to see if there are any worthwhile remains to go and look at and photograph. Not quite the same as seeing your layout from above before it is built though!

[Re6/6]

Matford, P4 (currently being rebuilt). Was in MR not that long ago.

 

Just seen this thread and would like to add my tuppenceworth!

 

As some might know we operate in the 'privatisation' era (2002>2005 with a little elasticity!) and as much stock modelled as we can that appeared in Exeter in those years. The various 'colourful' liveries alway seem to please at exhibitions, so there seems to be a fair amount of interest in the 'current' era.

 

We've had several invites last year to shows but have had to decline due to the terminal condition of the baseboards (which are now in landfill) but we'll be back.

 

A snap of our 'colourful' trains.

 

[beast66606]

I was at Retford station the other day and I challenge anybody to say that the operation there now is more interesting than it was in 1957, the period of Roy Jackson's layout.

 

I guess it depends on what you are looking for, but don't confuse the actual trains with the operation, I would sooner have semaphore forests but that doesn't mean the modern scene is not interesting.

 

The point that I am making is that the real railway has lost so much infrastructure that the number of interesting, modelable places has shrunk to a very small number. So although layouts based closely on real places have a niche in the modelling world if they are based in the past, they perhaps don't have such a place now if the real thing is copied exactly.

 

Sorry this is plain rubbish, there are plenty of interesting places, just because your definition of interesting is different doesn't make it so.

 

 

This is where that wonderful thing, modeller's licence, comes in. People interested in the modern scene can and do produce layouts. The successful ones incorporate a degree of creativity (modellers licence) to make the layouts more interesting operationally, in a way that modellers of previous periods probably don't need to so much.

 

So they all run the correct prototype service on their branch lines ? they are all scale length, correct trains, they are all correctly modelled (in and outside the fence) ? again your comments apply to all layouts (even mine) (even New Street) - it really is called modellers licence and applies to 99.99999% of layouts ever built.

 

 

There is also the challenge of modelling something that is, perhaps, a minority interest. I model pregrouping steam and I know that my layouts are not going to have something next door at a show with the same locos and stock as I have.

 

Whether you are next to another similar layout will surely depend on what is invited ? At a recent show we attended we also weren't next to any layouts with the same stock - proving ??

 

I go to shows and see plenty of steam era layouts with junctions, sidings and the likes and they are never used, the trains merely loop round and round, operationally they are as dull as the proverbially.

[Armchair Modeller]

Whilst the modern railway may be "bare" compared to railways of the past, this surely makes them more modellable in one sense, as there is less infrastructure to build.