West of England mainline - How much is single track?

[Glorious NSE]

Further random thoughts....

 

It would depend a lot on what outcomes you wanted - (Leaving aside fitting it in at the Exeter end) - the intermediate block would let you run an hourly stopper out of Exeter to Honiton, where passengers from the intermediate stops can transfer to the fast that's followed it out, it can then sit at Honiton whilst the fast meets it's counterpart at Axminster and then follows that one back into Exeter after picking up any connecting passenger from London for Feniton, Whimple, Cranbrook and Pinhoe...

 

By taking out the minor intermediate stops you ***might*** be able to then speed up the Axminster-Exeter-Axminster round trip for the London trains enough to not require a layover at Exeter St Davids, that would save the unit you needed to run the stopper and give a journey time boost for Exeter - but turnround time at St Davids could be very tight!

 

You could probably do that every other hour already with the present infrastructure which would still give the same basic 'every other hour' service to the intermediate stations as they have today, albeit they would lose the direct trains to London and a longer connection time at Honiton - the 'local' unit would spend a lot of time sat still though and apart from a handful more trains between Honiton and Exeter you don't gain much.

 

But if what you really wanted out of it was a half hourly London, or a better-than-hourly service at those intermediate stops then you quickly get to needing that loop.

 

And oddly there are already intermediate signals between Pinhoe and Honiton, but unusually they aren't block signals...

[Gwiwer]

For the forseeable future I don't think the LSWR route would sustain more than an hourly service on the Salisbury - Exeter section so long as 6 - 9 car trains can be run. A couple of closely-spaced trains to match peak demand doesn't really upset the prospect for a local service at the Exeter end.

 

There have been regular calls for a commuter service at the Exeter end but there have been a few short peak-time workings in the timetables for many years and which are sometimes reported as not very well used.

 

An Exeter - Honiton service calling at all stations (including Cranbrook and perhaps St. James's Park) might generate sufficient new traffic to be commercially viable in the longer term but I doubt it would be worthwhile taking it any farther east.

 

The marginal saving of London trains being able to skip Feniton, Whimple and Pinhoe might be outweighed by the wish to offer those places a through London service.

 

There is no reason that an Exeter - Honiton local has to turn back at St. Davids. It could just as easily form a part of a Honiton - Crediton service offering improved services to another growing town into the bargain.

[Neil Rogers]

this is what i know!

 

Cranbrook will be operational for the Dec 2012 timetable change. single line only.

 

over the coming months/years Honiton loop will be extended by 1.5 mile in the county end. this will allow freight & half hourly shuttles to run on line.

they also putting goods loop back in at Exeter central! Exd-wat severces will be fast (Exd, Exc, cranbrook & Hon) and shuttles will stop all stops.

the only question is who's going to operate these extra sevices? SWT or FGW? as it's difficult for SWT to staff from Salisbury.

Gillingham is also being re-signalled the same as Axminster with by-directional running.

 

 

just some thoughts of a SWT employee!!!

 

cheers

Neil

[Rivercider]

A separate issue, but one which would affect any future expansion of the service,

is there not an aspiration to increase the Devon Metro service?

The Great Western RUS makes mention of making the Paignton-Exmouth service half hourly,

the hourly Barnstaple-Exeter service to terminate at St James Park, presumably running ECS to turn back at Exmouth Junction.

 

cheers

[Gwiwer]

Has not Gillingham been signalled for bi-di for many years? ISTR running through platforms there almost at random though there was always logic to it in that if there was no cross you would take the straight route.

[Glorious NSE]

Thanks Neil

 

Rivercider - good call, and is DCR still planning to do similarly with Okehampton trains? St Davids-Exmouth Jcn could end up rather congested, especially St Davids where it's all got to fit into 2 platforms and the overlaps limit what moves you can do concurrently.

 

There is no reason that an Exeter - Honiton local has to turn back at St. Davids. It could just as easily form a part of a Honiton - Crediton service offering improved services to another growing town into the bargain.

 

Think you missed my point with that one. On the current timetable the regular hourly trains cross each other at Axminster, and pass again somewhere near Exeter Central, with the units then laying over in the sidings at St Davids for 40 minutes or so of the hour - that's regular pattern trains through the day stopping at *either* at Pinhoe *or* at Whimple and Feniton, so those get an every-other-hour service.

 

If you were to knock all those intermediates out of the London trains, is it possible to bring Axminster-Exeter-Axminster down under an hour (or to put it another way, can you get Axminster-St Davids down to 25 minutes or thereabouts to give you enough time to turnround at St Davids) - I suspect that's chancy at best, but if you could then that frees up a pair of 159s which then can run the stopper you need.

 

You get a regular hourly stopper, plus a faster London service, at the cost of through London trains for the 3 (to be 4) intermediate stops.

 

I agree the local run could link beyond Exeter as well if a case can be found for it (and Crediton is probably do-able *if* you can integrate the times) - St James Park has a very short platform in the Up direction, but may be do-able, especially useful on match days!

 

But if congestion from Exmouth Jcn to St Davids becomes the big issue, that may limit it to one TPH, which would mean no need for a loop, and slower London trains making more stops....

Edited November 25, 2011 by Glorious NSE

[Neil Rogers]

No Gillingham at present is only by-directional on platform 1, platform 2 is down only.

but we can do ECS moves in the up direction from down loop.

 

cheers

Neil

[phil-b259]

With SWT hourly service now taking up all available capacity west of Yeovil there might be a business case to re-double Yeovil Junction through to Chard Junction as another dynamic loop to allow for diversions and charters once again, and to install another loop at Feniton perhaps. Reawakening of a main line by stealth?

 

When the Axminster loop was in the planning stages one of the options was to extend it to encoupass the Chard junction loop as well giving continious double track between Chard Junction and Axminster. Aparently this would have allowed a 30 minute frequancy as far as Axminster which was one of the things called for in the Devon Metro plan. It could could have also potentally speeded up certain SWT services as the plan was for the extra services to be provided by FGW as part of their Exeter operation and would not have required extra SWT stock. It could have also allowed a more optimised calling pattern with the likes of Pinhoe & Feniton served by FGW only and thus speeding up SWT services (admitadly at the expense of those passengers looking to travel between Feniton & Yeovil for example)

 

I admit that in an ideal world and given its stautus as a diversionary route, the Yeovil - Exeter bit should be double track throughout. Passing loops are fine but it only takes one points failure to totally screw things up where as plain double track is far more resilant when failures occur (and dispite managements current obsession, all the condition monitoring in the world will not stop things failing.)

Edited November 25, 2011 by phil-b259

[Captain Kernow]

over the coming months/years Honiton loop will be extended by 1.5 mile in the county end

As far as I know (from within NR), the funding for this option isn't yet confirmed

 

they also putting goods loop back in at Exeter central!

I'm not aware of any such proposal from a standpoint within NR and as someone who is pretty close to scheme development and implementation. There are technical reasons why this would not be easy and it would be very expensive. I don't see what the business case would be for this.

[The Stationmaster]

Has not Gillingham been signalled for bi-di for many years? ISTR running through platforms there almost at random though there was always logic to it in that if there was no cross you would take the straight route.

The straight route (main platform, Up side) at Gillingham has indeed always been bi-directional - ever since the singling. This was partly for timetabling reasons but also because Gillingham 'box can be switched and always used to be closed on nights (and presumably still is) when the only train was the Yeovil 'Papers' (01.35 Waterloo).

[The Stationmaster]

And oddly there are already intermediate signals between Pinhoe and Honiton, but unusually they aren't block signals...

Not such an unusual situation as you might think. They are presumably there for 'running time to automatic level crossing' reasons as is the case at Crewkerne and in a number of other places round the country. Perhaps not so expensive to convert to block signals as in pre-axle counter days but still an expensive job to convert them for train separation purposes.

[PaulRhB]

Gillingham 'box can be switched and always used to be closed on nights (and presumably still is)

Yes but only closes one night a week. From March(ish) it will transfer to Basingstoke and according to the diagrams will have main aspects for both lines in the Up direction.

[Glorious NSE]

In this case the signals actually protect a non-auto level crossing operated by the station staff at Feniton, giving the rather odd example of TOC staff controlling signals.

[The Stationmaster]

In this case the signals actually protect a non-auto level crossing operated by the station staff at Feniton, giving the rather odd example of TOC staff controlling signals.

Presumably the same applies at Sherborne nowadays or has the crossing supervision been altered? (and what has happened in that respect at Axminster?)

[Glorious NSE]

Not sure about Sherborne....

 

This suggests Axminster *was* a similar setup, but I believe it's now controlled from Chard Jcn?

http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/railco/sr/se67-sb2.html#axmin

[Glorious NSE]

Ref Sherborne, a thread here: http://www.signalbox.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1473 has the following snippet:

 

Interestingly the abolition of Axminster level crossing control point (a non-block post) will leave Feniton as the last such installation on the Salisbury - Exeter line.

 

Suggesting that Sherborne had already changed.

[Guest 34008Padstow]

Ive read on a website that Cranbrook is going to e located somewhere near Broad Clyst, and that the old Broad Clyst station site would be used for Cranbrook. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Kris]

Ive read on a website that Cranbrook is going to e located somewhere near Broad Clyst, and that the old Broad Clyst station site would be used for Cranbrook. Does anyone know if this is true?

 

The outline plans for the station site are here http://www.devon.gov.uk/loadtrimdocument?url=&filename=EEC/11/39/HQ.CMR&rn=11/WD334&dg=Public How this relates to the old stations site I don't know.

[Oldddudders]

Almost another Kentish duplication, huh? Except Cranbrook, Kent, closed in 1961. First Gillingham, now Cranbrook - is nothing sacred? What was wrong with Broad Clyst, home of DS1169 for all those years? Mutter, mutter....

[Glorious NSE]

It's not the old Broadclyst station site as far as I can tell from that diagram.

[Guest Belgian]

Single track beyond Yeovil Junction to Chard Junction (passing loop), then the "dynamic loop" at Axminster which is used for crossing trains without requiring a stop (and right-hand running as noted above but not that uncommon - it exists also at numerous Scottish loops) and another loop at Honiton station. Double track resumes at Pinhoe crossing.

But the 'dynamic loop' isn't just a station loop like the Scottish ones, it's an actual portion of running line of about 3 miles, where trains can pass each other at speed, which is rare in the UK.

[Oldddudders]

But the 'dynamic loop' isn't just a station loop like the Scottish ones, it's an actual portion of running line of about 3 miles, where trains can pass each other at speed, which is rare in the UK.

The first - and until now only - dynamic loop of which I had been aware was between Slough and Iver on the slow lines, and that was only in Network Thames & Chiltern's Investment Programme in 1989/90. Presumably it fructified after I'd moved on from seeing such data. 3 miles would seem to be a minimum sort of length to be truly dynamic, but as I said earlier, any extra infrastructure on this route should be welcomed.

[RJS1977]

Interesting thread! Just a few thoughts of my own:

 

Chard Junction:

 

It's always puzzled me why this station hasn't been reopened. As the platforms are still extant, the trains stop there anyway (to pass) and tickets are sold on board, it would take little more than the driver opening the doors! It *may* not get many passengers, but as an (almost) free station, it wouldn't need many!

 

Seaton Junction: Yes, it's in the middle of nowhere, but if the Seaton trams were to be extended back there, I could see the station being reopened as an interchange for visitors to the tramway (a la Smallbrook). And it would then potentially open up a one-change service from Seaton to London.

 

I could also see Broadclyst/Cranbrook being "for Exeter Airport" with a connecting bus link (or even, if the airport expands, a terminal close to the station).

 

Of course, the whole line would probably have been doubled by now if the DoT hadn't had a last minute change of mind about the length of SWT's franchise in 2001!

[Edwin_m]

I really don't think Seaton Junction would make any sense. As suggested somewhere further back, Seaton is a fairly small place with little traffic potential. When I visited the tram a couple of years ago there didn't seem to be any sign that they were looking to extend northwards (or does anyone know better?). There is a bridge missing immediately north of the existing limit of operations. In any case the tram is a seasonal operation with a short operating day like most heritage railways, so a lot of the time there would be nothing for the train to connect with.

 

Smallbrook is on a short low-speed community rail route, stopping a 90mph inter-urban service is another matter entirely.

[Gwiwer]

From my conversations over the years with Seaton Tramway staff (and none of their comments should be inferred as representing the views of the business) it would seem they are happy that the operation they have is sustainable in the long term but there would be benefits from having a main line connection in much the same way as Smallbrook Junction operates. There is a missing bridge. There is insufficient rolling stock for an extended peak service.

 

There is a little traffic potential from Seaton towards London but not at a commercially-viable level. There is a sense that incoming traffic from the "main line" may help to provide a balance of traffic on currently lightly-used trips and would help to strengthen the overall business. The operations now extend from mid-February until late October plus Christmas and generally from 10.00 until 17.00 though with a much earlier finish early and late in the year.

 

Seaton itself is not a large town but bigger than some which have stations open on the main line today. Its neighbour of Beer is smaller still. Knowing many people in the area I can say that when rail is used the norm is to drive to Axminster which has served as the railhead for a large part of the "Jurassic Coast" since the branch lines closed. It is unlikely that any significant number of users would take the tram to Seaton Junction and change there for Exeter, Salisbury or London. Any traffic through a re-opened link would be inbound to Seaton probably returning at the end of the day. As such a few off-peak services could call during the hours of tramway operation without significant time penalty particularly if a "Devon Metro" operation then meant they did not have to call at the small stations west of Honiton.