Transpennine Upgrade : Manchester/Leeds

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, GordonC said:

I'm not really sure why Network Rail were describing the Piccadilly plans as hugely disruptive - building extra platforms alongside should be a lot less disruptive than the changes at Oxford Road cutting down to 3 platforms

For trains that don't exist too - how many services use that corridor that are currently too long for Oxford Road  with it's four through platforms?

 

Having a similar 4 platforms at Piccadilly would also one train at platform and one train arriving/departing in both directions - ditto Oxford Rd.  The bottleneck that is Deansgate sees less stopping services these days to improve flow.

 

Really not sure where these trains requiring much longer platforms are coming from

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

For trains that don't exist too - how many services use that corridor that are currently too long for Oxford Road  with it's four through platforms?

 

Having a similar 4 platforms at Piccadilly would also one train at platform and one train arriving/departing in both directions - ditto Oxford Rd.  The bottleneck that is Deansgate sees less stopping services these days to improve flow.

 

Really not sure where these trains requiring much longer platforms are coming from

 

Not sure, but I think I saw Blackpool North services being a pair of Class 331s recently, if that was 7 or 8 coaches they'd probably be too long for Oxford road, not sure about whether 6 coaches would fit

[iands]

From the Sectional Appendix. The longest platform lengths available at Manchester Oxford Road are;

Platform 1 - 105m

Platform 2 - 160m

Platform 3 - 160m

Platform 4 - 162m

Platform 5 - 105m

[GordonC]

2 minutes ago, iands said:

From the Sectional Appendix. The longest platform lengths available at Manchester Oxford Road are;

Platform 1 - 105m

Platform 2 - 160m

Platform 3 - 160m

Platform 4 - 162m

Platform 5 - 105m

 

So with a 3 car 331 being 71.4m and a 4 car 331 being 94.75m then a 6 car would fit in the longest platforms, but 7 car would overhang the platforms.

[woodenhead]

18 minutes ago, iands said:

From the Sectional Appendix. The longest platform lengths available at Manchester Oxford Road are;

Platform 1 - 105m

Platform 2 - 160m

Platform 3 - 160m

Platform 4 - 162m

Platform 5 - 105m

 

13 minutes ago, GordonC said:

 

So with a 3 car 331 being 71.4m and a 4 car 331 being 94.75m then a 6 car would fit in the longest platforms, but 7 car would overhang the platforms.

So a 25% increase in platforms 2 and 4 would let them run 2x4 car 331s with platform 3 becoming either a proper terminal platform or maybe still connected at both ends to let a liner snake through without blocking platforms 2 & 4.

 

[iands]

I should add that the platform lengths I quoted above were for the 'Down' direction. They are the same for the 'Up' direction except for Platform 3 which is only 137m.

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, iands said:

I should add that the platform lengths I quoted above were for the 'Down' direction. They are the same for the 'Up' direction except for Platform 3 which is only 137m.

Which is down? Towards or away from Piccadilly?

[corneliuslundie]

I think the disruption mentioned was not on the railway itself but in acquiring and demolishing adjacent properties. I am sure that that was quoted previously as a reason not to go ahead.

Jonathan

[woodenhead]

13 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think the disruption mentioned was not on the railway itself but in acquiring and demolishing adjacent properties. I am sure that that was quoted previously as a reason not to go ahead.

Jonathan

At Oxford Road station yes because the arches are occupied by many businesses, but Piccadilly looked like this back when it was proposed and I think it isn't much different now as most of the land would be over Fairfield Street

[iands]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Which is down? Towards or away from Piccadilly?

Sorry @woodenhead, only just seen your query, the 'Up' is towards Piccadilly. 

[woodenhead]

36 minutes ago, iands said:

Sorry @woodenhead, only just seen your query, the 'Up' is towards Piccadilly. 

So that has the signal a lot further from the platform end that might leave a train sticking out onto the line into platform 4.

[iands]

14 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

So that has the signal a lot further from the platform end that might leave a train sticking out onto the line into platform 4.

Here's the relevant page from the SA.

 

SA Oxford Road.pdf

[GordonC]

On the subject of Manchester Oxford Road, why does the regular platform towards Piccadilly have 2 signals on it? One is at the end of the platform, but the earlier one is about a coach length along the platform.

 

There really cant be enough distance to hold a complete train at the platform end signal with another queued behind

[Fat Controller]

Is it perhaps one of those signals that are known to be at high risk of 'SPADDING' ?

[62613]

17 hours ago, woodenhead said:

At Oxford Road station yes because the arches are occupied by many businesses, but Piccadilly looked like this back when it was proposed and I think it isn't much different now as most of the land would be over Fairfield Street

Wasn't it the users of The Star and Garter who were objecting to its demolition? I raised this a few years ago, and another reason for not going anead would have been disruption to London Road while the approach structures were built. 

Something needs to be done about the congestion along the Oxford Road corridor; it's been known about for at least 15 years; the Ordsall Curve made it worse

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Wasn't it the users of The Star and Garter who were objecting to its demolition? I raised this a few years ago, and another reason for not going anead would have been disruption to London Road while the approach structures were built. 

Something needs to be done about the congestion along the Oxford Road corridor; it's been known about for at least 15 years; the Ordsall Curve made it worse

I reckon they could sneak it past the Star and Garter - the only building to stand in the path of the route

[62613]

12 minutes ago, 62613 said:

Something needs to be done about the congestion along the Oxford Road corridor; it's been known about for at least 15 years; the Ordsall Curve made it worse

Rephrasing this; the Ordsall Curve was a part of the "Northern Hub"; a project to increase rail capacity around Mancheaster and to make accessiblity from North - East England to Manchester Airport easier. As well as the curve, there was the 4 - tracking between Piccadilly and Oxford Road, as well as, as I understand it, a grade separation scheme at Ardwick, to avoid trains having to cross the Piccadilly station throat on the flat. There were other parts to the project as well. Proceeding with the curve while binning all the rest looks like absolute stupidity from where I'm sat. It also seems to highlight the problems of upgrading existing rail infrastructure in crowded cities (see, ad nauseam, HS2, and the current furore in Bedford over the demolition of 65 homes for East - West Rail)

[GordonC]

49 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Is it perhaps one of those signals that are known to be at high risk of 'SPADDING' ?

 

The signals operate independently, its not a repeater of the advanced one and the line of sight is straight.

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by GordonC

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

Rephrasing this; the Ordsall Curve was a part of the "Northern Hub"; a project to increase rail capacity around Mancheaster and to make accessiblity from North - East England to Manchester Airport easier. As well as the curve, there was the 4 - tracking between Piccadilly and Oxford Road, as well as, as I understand it, a grade separation scheme at Ardwick, to avoid trains having to cross the Piccadilly station throat on the flat. There were other parts to the project as well. Proceeding with the curve while binning all the rest looks like absolute stupidity from where I'm sat. It also seems to highlight the problems of upgrading existing rail infrastructure in crowded cities (see, ad nauseam, HS2, and the current furore in Bedford over the demolition of 65 homes for East - West Rail)

The grade seperation would be madness, there can't be that many services that need to do that now and if they did perhaps routing via Victoria resolves it.

 

I am still not convinced it was four tracking the Oxford Rd route, the plans I saw had two additional platforms at Piccadilly and Oxford Rd remodelled with four longer platforms.  That would allow one train in each direction to dwell at both stations whilst another departed/arrived in each direction needing then only two lines between the station as now.  Deansgate remains as is, a lesser station at which not all trains stop.

 

The new plan reduces the Oxford Rd plan to just two through platforms albeit longer ones plus a central terminating platform because they still don't get that people on the Liverpool stoppers might actually want to get to Piccadilly without having to cram onto another train for a 1 minute journey (that's me y'all).  Nothing changes at Piccadilly whatsoever where we are left with platforms designed in the 1960s for commuter traffic between Altrincham and Manchester albeit extended in the late 1980s for the Windsor Link and when they introduced the Trans Pennine loco hauled services onto the route away from Victoria.

 

Longer platforms will allow signalling changes and somehow this is magically going to solve congestion in the Oxford Rd corridor.

 

Edit link to the options NR had for platforms 15/16 - two of them avoided the Star & Garter

https://web.archive.org/web/20130718085218/http://www.networkrail.co.uk/improvements/northern-hub/projects/manchester-oxford-road-piccadilly/manchester-piccadilly-station-proposals/

And none indicate a widening of the arches for four tracking which would have involved major demolitions along the route.

Edited June 8, 2023 by woodenhead

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

Rephrasing this; the Ordsall Curve was a part of the "Northern Hub"; a project to increase rail capacity around Mancheaster and to make accessiblity from North - East England to Manchester Airport easier. As well as the curve, there was the 4 - tracking between Piccadilly and Oxford Road, as well as, as I understand it, a grade separation scheme at Ardwick, to avoid trains having to cross the Piccadilly station throat on the flat. There were other parts to the project as well. Proceeding with the curve while binning all the rest looks like absolute stupidity from where I'm sat. It also seems to highlight the problems of upgrading existing rail infrastructure in crowded cities (see, ad nauseam, HS2, and the current furore in Bedford over the demolition of 65 homes for East - West Rail)

The Ordsall Chord scheme (including Piccadilly and Oxford Road as you say) was an alternative to the Ardwick flyover, they were never both going to go ahead but it was concluded the Chord had a better benefit to cost ratio.  There was never any 4-tracking between Piccadilly and Oxford Road - recognising that the occupation time of the station platforms was the limiting factor on route capacity, it was planned to provide two useable platform tracks in each direction at each station (Oxford Road has that already but they are too short and signalling overlaps mean that a train can't arrive in one while the previous one is departing from the other).  

 

The Chord was given the go-ahead on its own by the government in the early 2010s, and everyone professionally involved would have known it made little sense without the other enhancements.  A Transport and Works Act order was submitted for Piccadilly and Oxford Road and just sat on the desk of then Transport Minister Grayling for years.  This is what has just been withdrawn, pending some alternative option.  

Edited June 8, 2023 by Edwin_m

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

The signals operate independently, its not a repeater of the advanced one and the line of sight is straight.

This is the train length and signalling overlap problem I mentioned in my previous post.  For those that don't know, and simplifying grossly, a train isn't allowed to approach a red signal unless the track is clear and the route locked for an "overlap" distance beyond the signal in case of any overrun.  In this case the overlap for the further signals runs beyond the convergence of the two tracks, so if a train arriving in one platform is cleared to the further signal, no train can leave the other platform until sufficient time has elapsed that the arriving train must have stopped without running past the signal.  It's possible to route a train up to the nearer signal to avoid this problem, but only if it's short enough to fit in that part of the platform.  

[jonhall]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I reckon they could sneak it past the Star and Garter - the only building to stand in the path of the route

 

and moving the building wouldn't be that expensive in the greater scheme of things

 

 

 

[woodenhead]

23 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

This is the train length and signalling overlap problem I mentioned in my previous post.  For those that don't know, and simplifying grossly, a train isn't allowed to approach a red signal unless the track is clear and the route locked for an "overlap" distance beyond the signal in case of any overrun.  In this case the overlap for the further signals runs beyond the convergence of the two tracks, so if a train arriving in one platform is cleared to the further signal, no train can leave the other platform until sufficient time has elapsed that the arriving train must have stopped without running past the signal.  It's possible to route a train up to the nearer signal to avoid this problem, but only if it's short enough to fit in that part of the platform.  

And at Oxford Rd they route the liners out through Platform 3, if it is held at Platform 14 Piccadilly the tail is still in Platform 3 at Oxford Rd.

 

The signals allow a train to still arrive at Oxford Rd using Platform 4, being held at the first signal to allow for the overlap, otherwise no trains could arrive at Platform 4 with a liner held at Piccadilly.  If the arriving train was long and by some stroke of luck nothing was heading in the opposite direction, they could use Platform 2 at Oxford Rd as the tracks are bi-directional to get to Piccadilly and over take the liner.

[corneliuslundie]

My grandfather moved a building in Exeter many decades ago.

Mind you I suspect that that Swiss video makes it look easier than it actually was.
Jonathan

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

My grandfather moved a building in Exeter many decades ago.

Mind you I suspect that that Swiss video makes it look easier than it actually was.
Jonathan

I think the GWR moved Carmarthen Junction station building in about the turn of the last century; the story goes that even the clock was undisturbed.