Transpennine Upgrade : Manchester/Leeds

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Thanks for clarification - I vaguely remember it now.  However, all it needed to unlock the land was a decision that the wider curve would never be built, rather than a decision to go ahead and build what they actually did.  I agree that without the work at Oxford Road and Piccadilly, this curve (now carrying only one train per hour) was a monumental waste of money and an indictment of the way politicians (don't) plan and fund rail projects.  

That whole area was railway land:

 

There is no sign of NR having sold off the land in the recent disposals, so it must have been sold to Salford Council a long time ago, but once NR had plans to build the curve it would have blighted development until the planning consent was passed and the route known.

[peanuts]

https://railuk.com/signalling-and-telecoms/first-electric-trains-on-transpennine-route-upgrade-in-sight-as-stalybridge-station-reopens/?fbclid=IwAR2fVbl2X4_ZI4W4tV8LoRiOuhThS73fohYhlw4eX3UsIyLMAJYjS7oJG3I

[62613]

More meanderings; the first signal Eastbound out of Stalybridge (near Printworks Road overbridge) has exchanged the three - aspect placed at the last upgrade for a modern four - aspect modular. Also, on the return journey, whilst waiting at the lights at the end of Wakefield Road, above Stalybridge Tunnel, a train appeared at the statiopn going Leeds - ward, but on the middle platform. This is the first time I've seen it used in full Bi - directional mode.

[SHMD]

Informative about the signal above Print Works Rd.

Platform 3 has always been regularly used in either direction.

(There must be more than 10 trains, in each direction, diagrammed each day to stop at the bi-directional Platform 3.)

 

10 years ago, after the first junction upgrade was finished, the point at the Manchester end of Platform 4 (up to Huddersfield) failed during the first week. this resulted all East bound Huddersfield trains using the bi-directional Platform 3.

 

So, I "copped" this bit of line early doors on my commute home to Mossley.

As we swapped over to Platform 3, what was "bang round" previously, I noticed immediately but the two ladies near me didn't. A few minutes later one pointed out to the other that we were now on the wrong track to Mossley - and left it at that. Leaving Stalybridge, they did not notice we crossed back to the Down line and proceeded on to Mossley. Entering Mossley, the first Lady then remarked "Oh, we have changed track again", oblivious to the implications of actually running "Bang Road" for that distance (or anything else)!

 

This Platform 4 point failure also resulted in the much more serious problems for the regulars of the Buffet Bar - they now had to run all the way round to Platform 3 BEFORE the train arrived, instead of just jumping onto the train at the door nearest the Pubs exit as soon as the brakes stopped squealing!

 

 

Kev.

[62613]

6 minutes ago, SHMD said:

Informative about the signal above Print Works Rd.

Platform 3 has always been regularly used in either direction.

(There must be more than 10 trains, in each direction, diagrammed each day to stop at the bi-directional Platform 3.)

 

10 years ago, after the first junction upgrade was finished, the point at the Manchester end of Platform 4 (up to Huddersfield) failed during the first week. this resulted all East bound Huddersfield trains using the bi-directional Platform 3.

 

So, I "copped" this bit of line early doors on my commute home to Mossley.

As we swapped over to Platform 3, what was "bang round" previously, I noticed immediately but the two ladies near me didn't. A few minutes later one pointed out to the other that we were now on the wrong track to Mossley - and left it at that. Leaving Stalybridge, they did not notice we crossed back to the Down line and proceeded on to Mossley. Entering Mossley, the first Lady then remarked "Oh, we have changed track again", oblivious to the implications of actually running "Bang Road" for that distance (or anything else)!

 

This Platform 4 point failure also resulted in the much more serious problems for the regulars of the Buffet Bar - they now had to run all the way round to Platform 3 BEFORE the train arrived, instead of just jumping onto the train at the door nearest the Pubs exit as soon as the brakes stopped squealing!

 

 

Kev.

They've got Belgian beer in the Buffet Bar, now! I don't think I've been in for about 6 years

[SHMD]

2 hours ago, 62613 said:

They've got Belgian beer in the Buffet Bar, now! I don't think I've been in for about 6 years

 

They are not short of beers in the Buffet Bar.

(Quite often they are short of space though!)

 

I do recommend a pork pie to go with your first pint.

(It comes with mustard and is one o the best pies I know.)

 

 

kev.

 

[62613]

6 minutes ago, SHMD said:

 

They are not short of beers in the Buffet Bar.

(Quite often they are short of space though!)

 

I do recommend a pork pie to go with your first pint.

(It comes with mustard and is one o the best pies I know.)

 

 

kev.

 

I used to go in when Dot and Ken ran the Saturday folk club, in the mid - 1970s. The beer was quite boring then. I think it was only when John and Sylvia took over that the beers got interesting

 

[SHMD]

6 minutes ago, 62613 said:

I used to go in when Dot and Ken ran the Saturday folk club, in the mid - 1970s. The beer was quite boring then. I think it was only when John and Sylvia took over that the beers got interesting

 

 

"Dot" - now there is a name from the past!

Everybody else, just picture "Professor McGonagall"!

 

I use to spend my school lunch money in there, but just occasionally, a Driver of the Stockport-Staly "Donkey" would allow you on the unit for the shunt from (the then) Platform 1 (Dn Hudd) to either the bay (Platform 3) or Platform 2 (Up to Manchester(s)). Thus getting the rare crossover.

 

The "Donkey" (usually a 2 car unit, then an old Gloucester 100/Hybrid something or other unit, and later a single Bubble Car (class x550xx) but not big enough to hold all the schoolgirls going to Stockport in the morning)) was then timed to arrive into Staly just behind the Newcastle express (within feet), to let the passengers from London change trains and proceed to Yorkshire. Then it would wait for the balancing return express (from Newcastle to Liverpool), swap over to the other platform to pick up passengers wanting to go to London.

 

O' course, this all changed when the "expresses" were diverted from Manchester Victoria to Piccadilly and the Stockport-Staly was demoted to a once-a-week "parliamentary".

 

Now, all scheduled times change yearly seasonally monthly weekly daily hourly everytime control has to think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(There is no  ((predictable Timetable now.))

 

 

Kev.

 

[peanuts]

22 hours ago, SHMD said:

 

"Dot" - now there is a name from the past!

Everybody else, just picture "Professor McGonagall"!

 

I use to spend my school lunch money in there, but just occasionally, a Driver of the Stockport-Staly "Donkey" would allow you on the unit for the shunt from (the then) Platform 1 (Dn Hudd) to either the bay (Platform 3) or Platform 2 (Up to Manchester(s)). Thus getting the rare crossover.

 

The "Donkey" (usually a 2 car unit, then an old Gloucester 100/Hybrid something or other unit, and later a single Bubble Car (class x550xx) but not big enough to hold all the schoolgirls going to Stockport in the morning)) was then timed to arrive into Staly just behind the Newcastle express (within feet), to let the passengers from London change trains and proceed to Yorkshire. Then it would wait for the balancing return express (from Newcastle to Liverpool), swap over to the other platform to pick up passengers wanting to go to London.

 

O' course, this all changed when the "expresses" were diverted from Manchester Victoria to Piccadilly and the Stockport-Staly was demoted to a once-a-week "parliamentary".

 

Now, all scheduled times change yearly seasonally monthly weekly daily hourly everytime control has to think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(There is no  ((predictable Timetable now.))

 

 

Kev.

 

Ah the " dodger" many a trip to work as a trb at stockport curled up asleep in the  comfy down graded ex first class seats behind the driver .

[SHMD]

This is how Stalybridge looked on Friday morning commute into work: -

 

The Unit is in the Bay - Platform 5 - under all this new OHLE stuff.

(I think they must have installed "N" gauge OH wires as I can't see them!

 

 

Kev.

 

 

[62613]

Still no contact wire fitted in the area around the bridge over the M60, just the return wire

[DY444]

15 hours ago, SHMD said:

This is how Stalybridge looked on Friday morning commute into work: -

 

The Unit is in the Bay - Platform 5 - under all this new OHLE stuff.

(I think they must have installed "N" gauge OH wires as I can't see them!

 

Kev.

 

I've posted before about NR being world class when it comes to wasting money and I'm far from being an electrification expert but ....

 

... in the middle distance there are two instances of structures across the two left hand lines and separate adjacent structures over the right hand line.  Is it really beyond the wit of man to design it in such a way that the supports for the right hand line are carried by the structures for the two left hand lines and save the cost of erecting 2 wholly separate structures?

[jamie92208]

2 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

I've posted before about NR being world class when it comes to wasting money and I'm far from being an electrification expert but ....

 

... in the middle distance there are two instances of structures across the two left hand lines and separate adjacent structures over the right hand line.  Is it really beyond the wit of man to design it in such a way that the supports for the right hand line are carried by the structures for the two left hand lines and save the cost of erecting 2 wholly separate structures?

The Midland did exactly that in 1907 for the gantries in Green Ayre station. The also had a specially made temporary extension to a gantry that was used when the new bridge over the Lune was being built and both bridges were there at one point. 

 

Jamie

[SHMD]

Those two masts (I'm pretty sure) are going to carry the wires for both Platform 4 and Platform 5, with Platform 5's wire terminating (presumably) just past the Buffer Stop (I guess it's something to do with what's hidden behind the wooden fence).

 

But II agree, some (design) decisions do appear (to me, the lay person) to be stupid!

(Especially all the started, then cancelled, and then started again electrifications schemes over the years... I know, politicions...)

 

Referring back to my (empty) photo, 3 years ago, those platforms would have been packed with commuters at 6:45am. Now, after the "More seats" debarcle, Covid, Stalybridge Upgrade ~10 years ago, Working From Home, Strikes, TPE cancelling like there is no tomorrow, and the latest Upgrade - I estimate passengers (in the morning commute) are down %90!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65346831

 

These figures are far worse for Stalybridge because Stalybridge was previously designed for operational flexibility (rare I know) giving it faster passing trains whilst now being very convienient to "turnback" services when things go pear shaped - ie many times a day.

Passengers just can not count on any releiability now and have voted with their feet.

 

This latest Upgrade has replaced the Ladder Junction with a double track Junction - thus allowing trains to pass by even faster.

No benift to Stalybridge commuters.

 

 

Kev.

[SHMD]

I really can not stress how appalling the service has been degraded to at Stalybridge...

Here's some more "fresh" analysis: -

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65341736

 

As a passenger/commuter, the two most hated aspects are "Pre-Cancelling" and "Turnbacks".

 

I gave up trying to use the trains from Stalybridge, to the Airport after missing 3 flights - and that was with setting off 3 1/2 hours before the flight closed!

 

 

Kev.

 

[woodenhead]

@SHMD but but but  we've invested in your station, look at all the shiny new track and all those shiny metal posts where one day we might actually hang some wires (so you can dry your washing whilst you wait for your train!).

[SHMD]

6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@SHMD but but but  we've invested in your station, look at all the shiny new track and all those shiny metal posts where one day we might actually hang some wires (so you can dry your washing whilst you wait for your train!).

 

I've heard it all before but the advantages (faster, reliable more frequent trains) apply to users of "other" stations NOT Stalybridge. (Possible exception of "reliable" but that's also emphaticaly prooven to be wrong.)

 

As for "replaceing" or "life expired" or other such BS - Pah!

 

 

Kev.

(...who is sat at Manchester Aiport having missed ((another)) flight but this time because the Taxi cancelled itself! Oh well, booked on this afternoons flight to Qatar instead...)

 

[adb968008]

On 06/04/2023 at 22:58, Edwin_m said:

This has probably been done to death a few dozen times on the HS2 thread.  But in short, about 8% of the passengers on HS2 were predicted to be going to Heathrow so it would be difficult to provide a good service there without inconveniencing the much larger number heading for central London.  Even if they did that, you'd still not be able to serve all terminals directly.  Old Oak Common has a frequent service to all terminals.  

But even fewer will use it as it is no better than the solution via Euston today.

[adb968008]

20 hours ago, SHMD said:

 

I've heard it all before but the advantages (faster, reliable more frequent trains) apply to users of "other" stations NOT Stalybridge. (Possible exception of "reliable" but that's also emphaticaly prooven to be wrong.)

 

As for "replaceing" or "life expired" or other such BS - Pah!

 

 

Kev.

(...who is sat at Manchester Aiport having missed ((another)) flight but this time because the Taxi cancelled itself! Oh well, booked on this afternoons flight to Qatar instead...)

 

Trains to Blackpool, from Bolton take an hour.

They took an hour in steam days.

Class 104’s did the journey in an hour.

Class 142 did the journey in an hour.

and today a 331 takes an hour.

 

The only progress is start up acceleration, which means they dwell longer at stations.

 So today they now stop all shacks, where as before they skipped a few shacks were no one gets on.
 

The saving was cutting the all stations services, as the express now stops all stations.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by adb968008

[Edwin_m]

52 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

But even fewer will use it as it is no better than the solution via Euston today.

From places served by HS2, I'd say it would be the preferred route to get to Heathrow.  As well as the journey time saving to Old Oak, there will be one relatively simple change of train there instead of the schlep from Euston to Paddington or the Piccadilly.  

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

From places served by HS2, I'd say it would be the preferred route to get to Heathrow.  As well as the journey time saving to Old Oak, there will be one relatively simple change of train there instead of the schlep from Euston to Paddington or the Piccadilly.  

With emphasis on the faff of getting to a place served by HS2… so one change becomes two, becomes 3 etc.

 

The car already has won this debate 20 years ago.

 

HS2 changes nothing, except pushing out some Avanti destinations a bit further than where they are now, reducing it further. It’ll be for back packers, elderly and those without a car, just as it is today, the oppourtunity to support all those green arguments HS2’s touted on was dismissed, because its not about the environment, or reducing cars etc, thats just the bubble wrap packaging that the HS2 trainset comes in.

Tell me, if HS2 is so good for LHR, but not worth the detour, why no suggestion of direct services, reversing at OC ?… i’m guessing everyone knows the answer already.

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by adb968008

[GordonC]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Trains to Blackpool, from Bolton take an hour.

They took an hour in steam days.

Class 104’s did the journey in an hour.

Class 142 did the journey in an hour.

and today a 331 takes an hour.

 

The only progress is start up acceleration, which means they dwell longer at stations.

 So today they now stop all shacks, where as before they skipped a few shacks were no one gets on.
 

The saving was cutting the all stations services, as the express now stops all stations.

 

 

 

 

 

Seems crazy if they haven't speeded the service up at all with electrification, thought that was always a selling point of electrification

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

Seems crazy if they haven't speeded the service up at all with electrification, thought that was always a selling point of electrification

They can stop at more stations so it improves the service frequency at previously lesser stations giving punters more options without slowing the end to end time.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

They can stop at more stations so it improves the service frequency at previously lesser stations giving punters more options without slowing the end to end time.

I think people prefer faster journeys.

In the 1980’s it used to be Bolton, Adlington, Blackrod, Chorley, Leyland, Preston.

Fasts would simply be Bolton, Chorley, Preston.

 

now its Bolton, Lostock jn, Horwich, Adlington, Blackrod, Chorley, Buckshaw Parkway,  Leyland, Preston.

 

Because its so slow, TPE have omitted the Bolton stop, because demand would be too great for it, as everyone wants to skip the shacks!!!

 

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

I think people prefer faster journeys.

In the 1980’s it used to be Bolton, Adlington, Blackrod, Chorley, Leyland, Preston.

Fasts would simply be Bolton, Chorley, Preston.

 

now its Bolton, Lostock jn, Horwich, Adlington, Blackrod, Chorley, Buckshaw Parkway,  Leyland, Preston.

 

Because its so slow, TPE have omitted the Bolton stop, because demand would be too great for it, as everyone wants to skip the shacks!!!

 

But if it takes the same time then there has been no overall loss to anyone.

 

I thought TPE altered their patterns to stop commuters piling on at Bolton, there are still plenty of trains off peak