Fog Men

[Debs.]

There were huts for them all over the rail-network......and lots of fogs back then.

 

So, who were the fog men: permanent-way linemen, S & T or other staffers?......how were they called away from their normal duties?......were they allocated a regular location or sent variously as reqd.?......was it an extra-wages job?

[Debs.]

Is there an echo in here!

 

Apologies for the double post on this: I recvd a misleading error message; and this led to a subsequent re-post.

 

Can`t seem to see a 'delete' button?

[buffalo]

You could use the report button and ask the mods to fix it.

 

Nick

[Debs.]

You could use the report button and ask the mods to fix it.

 

Nick

 

Just done!....Thankyou for the advice, Nick.

[LMS2968]

Usually they were PWay men who were normally allocated a permenant place, most probably by a distant signal. They would be called out by messenger when the signalman decided that visibility had or would be reduced to the point where his 'fog object', something like a signal post at least 200 yards from his box, passed out of his sight.

 

I assume that the fog men were paid their normal wages plus whatever the overtime rate was for the times they were in place.

[Edwin_m]

This link should take you to a search in Railways Archive of accidents caused by fog. A lot of these contain details of who was called out to fog duties, how long they were on duty etc.

[Debs.]

This link should take you to a search in Railways Archive of accidents caused by fog. A lot of these contain details of who was called out to fog duties, how long they were on duty etc.

 

Thanks for that link, Edwin; how very interesting to see how accidents have helped contribute to subsequent safe working practice.

 

Usually they were PWay men who were normally allocated a permenant place, most probably by a distant signal. They would be called out by messenger when the signalman decided that visibility had or would be reduced to the point where his 'fog object', something like a signal post at least 200 yards from his box, passed out of his sight.

 

I assume that the fog men were paid their normal wages plus whatever the overtime rate was for the times they were in place.

 

Ah.....linemen, that makes sense.......I bet it could`ve been a chilly and lonely posting at some signals!

[The Stationmaster]

On the Western everywhere that had Fog Signalling locations had a Fogging List which listed the men allocated to each post (most commonly Distant Signals were fogged but a number of stop signals were fogged too depending on their location and purpose) - and of course the Western had ATC which avoided the need for Fogging to some extent. For each post there was a nominated Fogman plus a Relief.

 

Usually Fogmen were PerWay staff and the important 'trick was to make sure that they were sent home from their usual work in time to give them sufficient rest to be out Fogging when required. This wasn't usually too much of a problem with fog but it could be difficult to get the timing right with snow - and that was even worse because not only might Fogmen be needed but also Snowmen - whose job was to keep points clear etc. In later years (c.the 1960s onwards) it became increasingly difficult to fill Fogmen's posts and thus trains delays in foggy weather could get even worse.

 

'Fog or falling snow' officially existed when visibility was less than 200yards and unless there was somethging very obvious to indicate that distance the Signalbox Special Instructions would nominate a fixed point as a 'Fog Object' and if a Signalman could not see it Fog Working had to be introduced and Fogmen called out.

[beast66606]

Ah.....linemen, that makes sense.......I bet it could`ve been a chilly and lonely posting at some signals!

 

The Sectional Appendix (on the LMS anyway) lists signals where fogmen were not employed, not all signals were covered.

[Mallard60022]

It must have been a nightmare job driving in the dark and fog back then. Fog/smog was awful before the clean air act(s). I have a vague memory of someone telling me that is why Top Shed & others in built up areas were forced to be eliminated early because of the excess smoke. However that might just have been an urban myth?

I suspect that it must still be a scary job driving (say) on the ECML now at high speed in the dark and poor visibility despite all the gear in the cab etc.

P

[Oldddudders]

The fogman really didn't have much more than his hut and his supply of detonators, which he simply replaced each time a train exploded them. No phone, nothing, but hopefully a brazier.

 

The worst operating outcome of fog or falling snow would be Double Block Working, i.e. not accepting a train until the preceding train had cleared the section in advance. It was not unusual in the fogs & smogs of the past for peak hour trains to take double their usual journey time over busy sections of line - result : chaos. Track circuit block and colour light signalling eliminate that need.

[beast66606]

The worst operating outcome of fog or falling snow would be Double Block Working, i.e. not accepting a train until the preceding train had cleared the section in advance. It was not unusual in the fogs & smogs of the past for peak hour trains to take double their usual journey time over busy sections of line - result : chaos. Track circuit block and colour light signalling eliminate that need.

 

Just colour lights, which don't require special fog working, TCB has nothing to do with it really (aside from being a by product of most colour light schemes) (iirc)

 

I can remember being at Port Sunlight with the fog swirling around, one minute we had double block, the next back to normal, then double again, a real pain in the block, it's a funny feeling when a train appears out of the fog, running at about 40mph and vanishes again, all in a few seconds.

One bleak night I can remember the fog being so thick that we had to have the cabin windows open (and it was flippin freezing too) so we could hear the trains as they approached, we could then be ready to "tail light" them in the brief glimpse we got as they trundled by, I can only imagine what it must have been like with double the number of running lines (4) and a lot more trains.

 

The fogman really didn't have much more than his hut and his supply of detonators, which he simply replaced each time a train exploded them. No phone, nothing, but hopefully a brazier.

 

At Port Sunlight the Up Distant (ex Up Fast Distant) had a fog repeater, the signal was a right hand bracket and in poor visibility it would be difficult to see the arm, so a small cabinet next to the signal was provided to repeat the arm.

[The Stationmaster]

It must have been a nightmare job driving in the dark and fog back then. Fog/smog was awful before the clean air act(s). I have a vague memory of someone telling me that is why Top Shed & others in built up areas were forced to be eliminated early because of the excess smoke. However that might just have been an urban myth?

I suspect that it must still be a scary job driving (say) on the ECML now at high speed in the dark and poor visibility despite all the gear in the cab etc.

P

A good few years ago I ad a trip down the GWML in an HST in very thick fog - for instance visibility less than 50 yards around Maidenhead near the river and not much better anywhere else - and it really is a test of Road Knowledge more than anything else (the other problem on modern traction being that you also lose a lot of the noises and smells that used to act as 'markers' in older times). But we stopped in exactly the right place at Reading - that's what skilled driving is about. It's even more 'interesting' at 186 mph on LGV Nord where the fog or mist can hang quite heavily, but not so thickly, around the Somme Valley.

 

I understand that the ECML equally is pretty easy as long as you know the road. A former colleague of mine who had been on the footplate at Kings Cross had a drive down after some years away from the route (in good weather this was) and after it had been resignalled and he said it was no trouble at all because of even signal spacing and he still knew where he was.

[D9020 Nimbus]

The Eccles accident during WW2 was a classic case of the problems caused when fogmen weren't deployed correctly–caused in that case by the signalman being confused by the similar names of the three fogmen. At that time fogmen did quite long shifts–a very unpleasant duty, I should think.

[LNERGE]

He is some of my collection of fogging bits and pieces..

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/5084170424/in/set-72157625169520566

 

I'll try and update it tomorrow with pictures of my other fog repeaters and my Clayton Fogging Machine..

[The Stationmaster]

The Eccles accident during WW2 was a classic case of the problems caused when fogmen weren't deployed correctly–caused in that case by the signalman being confused by the similar names of the three fogmen. At that time fogmen did quite long shifts–a very unpleasant duty, I should think.

In respect of shift length I see that they in fact normally did 12 hours - which was common practice throughout the railway industry, other than on the footplate where it could only be rostered in extremis, and indeed still occurs (albeit with total hours over a set period nowadays limited by 'Hidden 18' recommendations following the Clapham collision). Provide folk live close to there place of work there is - I think - little inherently wrong with 12 hours working on many railway duties although when it is placed against some modern 'travel to work' timings it can be onerous.

 

It is, I think, more a measure of how things have changed in society and where we live in relation to our place of work rather than anything else which suggests 12 hour shifts are 'long' and many of the folk who worked them for years on end might be surprised to hear them so described; the world and perceptions have changed.

[Rugd1022]

A good few years ago I ad a trip down the GWML in an HST in very thick fog - for instance visibility less than 50 yards around Maidenhead near the river and not much better anywhere else - and it really is a test of Road Knowledge more than anything else (the other problem on modern traction being that you also lose a lot of the noises and smells that used to act as 'markers' in older times). But we stopped in exactly the right place at Reading - that's what skilled driving is about. It's even more 'interesting' at 186 mph on LGV Nord where the fog or mist can hang quite heavily, but not so thickly, around the Somme Valley.

 

I understand that the ECML equally is pretty easy as long as you know the road. A former colleague of mine who had been on the footplate at Kings Cross had a drive down after some years away from the route (in good weather this was) and after it had been resignalled and he said it was no trouble at all because of even signal spacing and he still knew where he was.

 

You beat me to it Mike! I can honestly say I've never been 'scared' when driving in thick fog, it tends to focus the mind somewhat and the aforementioned route knowledge kicks in good and proper, in effect 'going up a notch'. During the Chiltern diversions last Christmas (when Reading was shut down) my fist shift was in a pea souper from start to finish, conducting a FGW HST from Banbury to Old Oak Common - we averaged about 85mph for much of the way, with just a single yellow on the approach to High Wycombe and of course the slow down outside London hampering progress. The only time I was slightly worried was on approach to the up distant at Ashendon Junction that Big Jim mentioned in another thread the other day, if it had been showing a single yellow I'd have told the FGW Driver to get the anchors on sharpish as the red would be just around the corner.

 

Route knowledge is a wonderful thing and after a while it all becomes second nature, whatever the weather. Not long after I joined the railway, I asked one of the old hands at Rugby (an ex-S&D man as I recall) what it was like running in such conditions back in steam days, his reply was 'we just got on with it' which speaks volumes about those times.

 

[Fat Controller]

One of my former drivers, now retired, used to work on the ECML; firing, then driving at Grantham and Top Shed. He described the difficulties of orientating oneself when the only landmarks were occasional church spires poking their heads through the fog around Huntingdon and Peterborough, and poorly-lit signals. He reckoned that TVM-fitted shuttle were a doddle in comparison..