Grasshopper John Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 First post hello. could you help I have bought a K kit 68xx grange class 4-6-0 and followed all the instuctions checking the pieces against the parts ect, the first piece I opened was the hardware box, spread it all outand i seem to be missing Chassis spacers, some (quite a few ) screws and nuts, the P Bronze wire and the Handrail knobs. Am a bit dissapointed but the seller has been excellent, I am keeping the kit as I want to build it, but need some spares. Can anyone point me in the right direction for some hardware for this old Kit I've purchased. Many Thanks John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I don't know that kit in detail but you'll probably get better components now that you would have had originally. Eileen's for the nuts and wire and Gibson for the handrail knobs. Chassis spacers - I'd be tempted to look to see if Gibson do a replacement set of frames and use those along with their or Comet frame spacers. Ks frames spacers were big screw in lumps and their frames were pretty poor as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Many Thanks Jonathan, who are Eileen and Gibson, this is my first attempt at white metal, I dont have a prob but dont want to start with an incomplete Kit, Could I but all i need seperately ? might not have the couplings either Just to advise I enjoy the building, I have a train set in my loft from my infancy not one at the moment, this is a 00 guage Grange class GWR 4-6-0 loco ( 68xx ) K Kit. with motor ect, I would like to build it complete if i can as a runing Loco, just for the hell of it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Eileens Emporium are legendary in modelling circles! http://www.eileensemporium.com/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Markits will have most of these items http://www.btinternet.com/~markits/ He will have the following Frame spacers page 16 MRAXFS11-4.0/00 Handrail Knobs (original ones) & wire page 33 M4HRK1.5 PB strip (cannot find it) 8BA screws page 21 (*you will need both countersunk and standard flat head) Mainly Trains may well have most of these parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 And, since you asked, Gibson is http://www.alangibsonworkshop.co.uk/ Just as Eileen's is now run by Derek, Alan's is now run by Colin... Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 ManyThanks for the excelent advice posted above, I shall make a few enquiries today and keep you posted. PS, Its an OO gauge kit 4mm what does the 4mm bit refer to ? Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 4mm is the scale, OO the gauge. Most of us in the UK run 4mm scale stock on 3.5mm track - OO gauge. Scaled up, OO track has a gauge of 4' 1" instead of the more traditional 4' 8 1/2". Some modellers prefer to run on closer to scale track, either EM (18.2 mm gauge) or P4 (18.83mm). The models are all to 4mm scale, but 3 different gauges. There are plenty of threads on here or the wider net which go over this and the associated standards if you want to read in more depth. Were you going to use the Ks motor with the kit? Do some searching on here and consider carefully. Metropolitan built one using the Ks motor sometime ago but I can't think of anyone else who's managed it. You might want to consider a modern can motor and High Level gearbox - you'll end up with a much better running model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 John, 4mm refers to the scale of the model, 4mm to the foot. It's also referred to as 1:76.2. 4mm scale has several gauges. Ignoring models of narrow gauge prototypes, these are OO - 16.5mm (inaccurate), EM - 18.2 mm (almost right) and P4 - 18.83mm (correct). Traditionally OO gauge for 4mm scale is the norm in the UK and is used by the RTR manufacturers, for historical reasons. See elsewhere in RMWeb for debates on this topic. Unfortunately, OO is also often referred to as a "scale", whereas it should be referred to as a gauge, the scale of 4mm to 1 foot being implied. Unfortunately this is how many retailers and modellers refer to OO, so compounding the error and confusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Were you going to use the Ks motor with the kit? Do some searching on here and consider carefully. Metropolitan built one using the Ks motor sometime ago but I can't think of anyone else who's managed it. You might want to consider a modern can motor and High Level gearbox - you'll end up with a much better running model. Thanks jwealleans, Not to bothered about the engine realy as I just enjoy building ( especialy Locos ) might run it in though, Its an incomplete Kit but although it wont be used i would still like to build it complete John, 4mm refers to the scale of the model, 4mm to the foot. It's also referred to as 1:76.2. 4mm scale has several gauges. Ignoring models of narrow gauge prototypes, these are OO - 16.5mm (inaccurate), EM - 18.2 mm (almost right) and P4 - 18.83mm (correct). Traditionally OO gauge for 4mm scale is the norm in the UK and is used by the RTR manufacturers, for historical reasons. See elsewhere in RMWeb for debates on this topic. Unfortunately, OO is also often referred to as a "scale", whereas it should be referred to as a gauge, the scale of 4mm to 1 foot being implied. Unfortunately this is how many retailers and modellers refer to OO, so compounding the error and confusion. ^^ Briliant and concise, thanks you both for the explanation.. Have spoken to Colin at alan gibson workshop very very helpful,Top man who is going to try a help me out. Attached is a copy of the hardware I received along with the checklist. Any thoughts? Regards John. Check list.doc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I may be being dense, but I don't see any body parts there at all? What's the black thing at the bottom of the lower photo? The K's wheels weren't up to much - you might want to try them as you have them but don't be afraid to chuck them away. The tender is a 5 sided box with the underneath open and the wheels trapped between the sides. Apart from needing a tame octopus to assemble they also often don't run well. If that's the case you might well find that Comet can do you a tender subframe which will run better. Don't permanently fix the top onto the tender until you've tested the running. Are you soldering or glueing? That's definitely a K's motor - last one I had in a loco expired in a puff of smoke after half a lap. Lubricate it before you test it but I suspect the best use for it is a wobbly desk or as a doorstop. I think there's at least one Grange build on here but I don't think it's a K's kit. That said there are quite a few builds of Ks or NuCast (they're often the same kit) locos so take the time to have a look at what others have done. Look in the archive area as well, there were a few people building WM locos in those days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted January 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think the "black thing" are the handrail knobs on a large sprue. The likes of Bertidog and Metropolitan on here are well versed in the building of these kits and their shortcomings. Hopefully they will swing by this thread and offer their advice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 I may be being dense, but I don't see any body parts there at all? there was 2 packs the body parts are in the other, it was just to show most of the Hardware was in the little yellow tub. What's the black thing at the bottom of the lower photo? Think handrail knobs cant work them out though, just discovered them this morning under the footplate The K's wheels weren't up to much - you might want to try them as you have them but don't be afraid to chuck them away. The tender is a 5 sided box with the underneath open and the wheels trapped between the sides. Apart from needing a tame octopus to assemble they also often don't run well. If that's the case you might well find that Comet can do you a tender subframe which will run better. Don't permanently fix the top onto the tender until you've tested the running. Are you soldering or glueing? Superglue- with a Brush Not to worried to be honest, wont be running, just want to build it ( ps was quoted twice as much for wheels, engine, gear box, than i paid for the kit). That's definitely a K's motor - last one I had in a loco expired in a puff of smoke after half a lap. Lubricate it before you test it but I suspect the best use for it is a wobbly desk or as a doorstop. I think there's at least one Grange build on here but I don't think it's a K's kit. That said there are quite a few builds of Ks or NuCast (they're often the same kit) locos so take the time to have a look at what others have done. Look in the archive area as well, there were a few people building WM locos in those days. Thank You. I think the "black thing" are the handrail knobs on a large sprue. The likes of Bertidog and Metropolitan on here are well versed in the building of these kits and their shortcomings. Hopefully they will swing by this thread and offer their advice Thanks I hope they come along I thought it was but cant make hea nor tail, inst say i have to drill holes for them? Again thanks for all your advice. John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 John, you may find this thread to be of interest: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/29393-gwr-mogul-in-4mm-scale-from-ks-kit/page__fromsearch__1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 John, you may find this thread to be of interest: http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 Many Thanks halfwit, What a fantastic 'how to', Stephen is in the premiership of model making, I am in the equivalent of a sunday side I`m just doing it for a bit of R&R. Certainly highlights some problems I will encounter, but I can always ask here If I may, why did`nt Stephen finish his thread? the last post was 23 Jul 2011, we never got to see the finnished product. Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Could someone identify the Crosshead Guides from the above pics or tell me what they look like I have a photo of the other card if needed. John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 John The crosshead guides are elongated U shaped pieces of oblong nickle silver metal. Looking at the photo and your list of missing items, not only have you the plastic hand rail knobs, I can see the hand rail wire. 2 out of the 3 spacers but only 1 of the 6 spacer screws. The HMP motors are a bit iffy, some are very good others are awefull. Also the wheels do not like being removed from their axles that much. Good luckI have one of these, have replaced the wheels with Romfords John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruciethefish Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi John, & welcome to the sometimes interesting world of building old K's kits.. I've built a few hundred of these in my time, so will offer you my two pence worth.. Firstly, if you're aiming for a running loco, the best place for the motor, wheels & gears is the bin, though try sticking them on ebay as some people will actually pay you money for them.. (You need to be some kind of wizard to get a good runner from the ones supplied..) I'd replace the wheels & gears with Romford/Markits ones, these being the simplest for a newbie to use. If you go for a 'can' type motor, you will probably have to file a relief in the top of the frames to let it reach the gears, as the K's frames were always on the thick side.. Secondly, have a supply of filler to hand, as you'll undoubtedly have plenty of gaps where the body components don't fit too closely. Also take care to keep the parts in shape, as the grade of alloy used by K's was very soft, & bends / distorts easily. (This wasn't helped by their infernal vacuum packing either, which caused many parts to come out of the box pre-bent..) Finally, as a word of encouragement, these kits can be made into reasonable models, given care, time & patience, plus a willingness to accept that some of the mechanical bits might just be well past their sell by.... Good luck with it, & I hope you'll let us know how you get on... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Finally, as a word of encouragement, these kits can be made into reasonable models, given care, time & patience, plus a willingness to accept that some of the mechanical bits might just be well past their sell by.... Good luck with it, & I hope you'll let us know how you get on... Now that sounds like the 2012 challange !! Being serious though I love K's kits and with the locos must have at least a 1/3 of what was made. You have the second generation series of wheels and motor, which were in most peoples view inferior to the earlier ones. But I do still have a few locos using these. If you do want to use these, try and do everything once and once only. Put the frames together and paint them first, then fit the wheels, gears, motor and coupling rods. If all works fit the pickups, the is still OK Cylinders etc. Just think and plan ahead. At worst you will either watch Ebay for a set of Romfords (mine have 22mm ones I have opted for 1mm smaller to cope with the larger wheel flanges) as they do come up quite often, or order a new set from Markits, as for gear sets my prefference is for a Comet or similar gear box. Nice loco and good luck on the build. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Thanks for all your excelent Input and advice, must admit reading all about it am a bit nervous spoke to mark at markits y`day ordered some nuts spacers screws and handrail knobs ( the ones supplied look a bit crap ) also spoke to David Geen what a nice bloke, in fact everyone I have spoken to in my quest has been brilliant, I hope she finnishes up looking something like this. http://www.davidgeen.co.uk/catalogue/mitchelldesign.htm PS. This is David Geens kit, I hope you dont mind me using your photo David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Glad to hear you are getting somewhere with this. Do show us pictures of progress with the build. PS. This is David Geens kit, I hope you dont mind me using your photo David He may be a nice bloke but, strictly speaking, reproducing this photo without explicit permission is probably an infringement of his, or more likely someone else's, copyright. Nick ps. Did you identify the crosshead slidebars? You haven't shown us the rest of the parts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Glad to hear you are getting somewhere with this. Do show us pictures of progress with the build. He may be a nice bloke but, strictly speaking, reproducing this photo without explicit permission is probably an infringement of his, or more likely someone else's, copyright. Nick ps. Did you identify the crosshead slidebars? You haven't shown us the rest of the parts. Thanks Nick, Yes they are the two pieces of U shaped nickel wire on this card ( top right nex to footplate ) I just called David and asked if it was ok to use his photo from his website and he was more than happy for me to do so, is that Ok ? I guess i have to be a member to have a signature photo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 John If at all possiable get better piston rod and slide bar units (below left of the smoke box door), I had great problems (whitemetal rods) with a set on the GNR Atlantic. Neither Markits or the Comet ones fitted, though you could enlarge the holes in the pistons (mine were fitted to the chassis) to make them fit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 ...I just called David and asked if it was ok to use his photo from his website and he was more than happy for me to do so, is that Ok ? Yes, unless it is out of copyright because of its age or you can find a statement to the effect that a photo can be reproduced, then you need the copyright owner's permission. I see Andy has replaced it with a link which is usually the better way to do it. btw. I agree with hayfield about replacing the white metal moving parts. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I have a couple of untouched K's loco kits, if you want the Frame Spacers etc, get in touch direct, micknich2003@yahoo.co.uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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