Grasshopper John Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Here are the instructions and a photo of the Body with and without the chassis you can see (i hope ) that the hole to the rear ( Cab end ) does not marry up. I used the Modification Instructions to assemble pick ups ect ( not that they are very clear at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Cannot really help as neither of my two K's Granges have a body fixing at the year. There is a casting that bolts to the chassis, this in turn locks into the body under the cab. The only bolt fixing is at the cylinder end, centre hole in the lower of your two pics. It is the same on the the moguls I have built that share the same chassis. For future ref, I along with many other kit builders, would AWAYS build the chassis and have it running first. Only then would a start be made on the body, to ensure any fit problems can be sorted out as constrcution continues. good luck Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Thanks Mike, i assume i can drill another hole to hold? what about the tender prob with the wheels, i cant make them fit between the sides...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Well making some progress albeit very slow, sorted out the motor mount, worm and gear working fine soldered the wires ( got a friend more adept than me to do it ) wheels are running freely amazing because they have been off and on more times than i can count, please could someone help with the following based on the pics. 1) Which wheels should the nickle wire touch ( i hav`nt fixed the plastic part in place yet ) 2) when i put chassis into Body the hole at the front lines up ok but the hole for the rear spacer is 2-3 mm out ? why is that. 3) Now this is plain stupid, I decided to start the Tender whilst waiting to get soldering sorted, from the picture you can see only one side and both ends are in place, when i complete the body with other side and top ( Perfect fit ) the wheels fall out the axles dont seem to be long enough to hold them in place, what on earth is going on. Please advise Regards John. John The K's pickup unit normally is sited the other side of the gears, trying to get it just off center sp pickups can touch all 6 wheels. K's supplied flat 2mm wide Phosphor bronze strip, not wire for the pickips. An alternative is to use copperclad printed circuit board, either 1 long bit with a hole in it to go over the gear wheel or 2 bits one each side of the gear wheel. If plain PCB board an isolation gap must be cut along the middle, if using 2 bits a pair of jumper wires between the 2 are needed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Here are the instructions and a photo of the Body with and without the chassis you can see (i hope ) that the hole to the rear ( Cab end ) does not marry up. I used the Modification Instructions to assemble pick ups ect ( not that they are very clear at all. Looking at mine, I have an 8ba bolt (mine are brass not the plastic ones that were supplied in the latter kits) which is stuck/soldered in the hole you can see in the rear (mine fits and is in line ) An long 8ba bolt goes through the rear of the whitemetal piston casting, through the front round frame spacer and a nut is threaded tight as the pony truck is then attached to this same bolt I soldered an 8 ba nut to the other side of the footplate (left hand hole in the photo) under the smoke box. A smaller 8 ba bolt with a counter sunk head is used to screw rge front of the chassis to the body My pickups are now 1 side only as I have changed the wheels to Romfords, with insulated wheels on one side and plain on the other. I have used 2 PCB board pieces, the rear picks up on the rear and center wheels and the front one to the front wheel. Long un-supported wires cause problems with movement. You can just make out the front countersunk bolt as its a steel one betweeb the 2 nuts which hold the pistons to the whitemetal T casting. Hope this helps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Hi John Glad you got the motor problem sorted,the K's wheels actually look pretty decent,hopefully they'll run reliably.The pickups need to bear on all 6 driving wheels,as Hayfield has said,your best bet would be a piece of gapped PCB between the frames,behind the gear wheel.The pickups will work more effectively if you put a bend in them to lessen the direct pressure on the wheel rims.It would be worth having a bit of a search on here to see how other people have arranged their pickups (at the risk of being unfaithful,there's also some good examples on the Scalefour S4Webforum) As for the rear fixing,yes you could drill another hole to match in the cab floor,alternatively make up a suitable sized box from layered plasticard which can be drilled with 2 adjacent holes to fit the fixing points,top and bottom. Finally,do the tender wheels have pin point axles,if so are they the standard 26mm length? If yes to both questions,you may need to fit some pinpoint bearings in the axleboxes,which will not only take up the gap but also make it more free running.If not,and you have plain ended axles, your options are to either replace with pinpoint axles (not hard to get hold of) or make up a subframe (nowhere near as difficult as a loco chassis!) Good luck Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 what about the tender prob with the wheels, i cant make them fit between the sides......] Can I refer you to my post #11 above? "The tender is a 5 sided box with the underneath open and the wheels trapped between the sides. Apart from needing a tame octopus to assemble they also often don't run well. If that's the case you might well find that Comet can do you a tender subframe which will run better. Don't permanently fix the top onto the tender until you've tested the running." Axle lengths these days are fairly uniform. It may be that K's intended a wheel with longer axle. I really would encourage you to look at a subframe - I've had locos whose tenders dragged so badly they wouldn't pull much else. Your other option is to space the bearings out by sticking a little piece of plastikard each side and then putting the bearing through that into the hole. That said I don't recall seeing bearings in the photo - are they pinpoint axles with a brass bearing or are they just going straight into the whitemetal? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Looking at mine, I have an 8ba bolt (mine are brass not the plastic ones that were supplied in the latter kits) which is stuck/soldered in the hole you can see in the rear (mine fits and is in line ) An long 8ba bolt goes through the rear of the whitemetal piston casting, through the front round frame spacer and a nut is threaded tight as the pony truck is then attached to this same bolt I soldered an 8 ba nut to the other side of the footplate (left hand hole in the photo) under the smoke box. A smaller 8 ba bolt with a counter sunk head is used to screw rge front of the chassis to the body My pickups are now 1 side only as I have changed the wheels to Romfords, with insulated wheels on one side and plain on the other. I have used 2 PCB board pieces, the rear picks up on the rear and center wheels and the front one to the front wheel. Long un-supported wires cause problems with movement. You can just make out the front countersunk bolt as its a steel one betweeb the 2 nuts which hold the pistons to the whitemetal T casting. Hope this helps Thanks John Hi John Glad you got the motor problem sorted,the K's wheels actually look pretty decent,hopefully they'll run reliably.The pickups need to bear on all 6 driving wheels,as Hayfield has said,your best bet would be a piece of gapped PCB between the frames,behind the gear wheel.The pickups will work more effectively if you put a bend in them to lessen the direct pressure on the wheel rims.It would be worth having a bit of a search on here to see how other people have arranged their pickups (at the risk of being unfaithful,there's also some good examples on the Scalefour S4Webforum) As for the rear fixing,yes you could drill another hole to match in the cab floor,alternatively make up a suitable sized box from layered plasticard which can be drilled with 2 adjacent holes to fit the fixing points,top and bottom. Finally,do the tender wheels have pin point axles,if so are they the standard 26mm length? If yes to both questions,you may need to fit some pinpoint bearings in the axleboxes,which will not only take up the gap but also make it more free running.If not,and you have plain ended axles, your options are to either replace with pinpoint axles (not hard to get hold of) or make up a subframe (nowhere near as difficult as a loco chassis!) Good luck Jamie Good to hear from you Jamie thanks, they are pin point axles so i need the spacers you mentioned, where can i get them? Can I refer you to my post #11 above? "The tender is a 5 sided box with the underneath open and the wheels trapped between the sides. Apart from needing a tame octopus to assemble they also often don't run well. If that's the case you might well find that Comet can do you a tender subframe which will run better. Don't permanently fix the top onto the tender until you've tested the running." Axle lengths these days are fairly uniform. It may be that K's intended a wheel with longer axle. I really would encourage you to look at a subframe - I've had locos whose tenders dragged so badly they wouldn't pull much else. Your other option is to space the bearings out by sticking a little piece of plastikard each side and then putting the bearing through that into the hole. That said I don't recall seeing bearings in the photo - are they pinpoint axles with a brass bearing or are they just going straight into the whitemetal? Cheers jw, Hayfield gave me a tip if i saved my box from the old ferrero roche so i guess i can make some kind of plate with the plastic box yes? they are pinpoint and just going into the whitemetal housing. and yes you do need eight bloody hands as well to make a box thanks Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 Cut up a ferrero roche box and made spacers, fitted either side and the wheels stay on now have to glue the bloody thing together, tomorrow will fit pick up piece to chassis, will only be able to have nickle wire touching four tyres but it wont be a running model really, just hope it works. thanks all. Regards John. PS Not looking forward to the connecting rods and pistons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 I gree with making a new pick up plate. I use one of two methods. The Grange seen in pics on page two has two paxolin blocks glued betwen the frames, to which a pick up plate from plasticard and nickel/brass is screwed. Another method is to cut two pieces of plasticard, one that sits on top of the frame snad one that fits between the frames. Glue together and glue a pice of brass/nickel to top. When glueing final assembly to frames, the smaller piece locks it all to the frames and opposes forces from the pick up wire whilst in use. With the tender, I assemble the basic box with one side left off. I insert brass pin point bearings into the axlebox holes. By leaving one side off, the fit can be adjusted until the wheels run smoothly, not too tight or too loose. At the same time, arrangements can be made for brakes, water scoop and couplings, before attaching the final side once and for all. With the cylinders, on the Grange and mogul, I assembled OFF the chassis, to avoid any damage to wheels frames etc. Once the cylinder/frame extension arrangement is satisfactory it can finally be bolted to the frames. For tender/loco coupling, I do not use the K's cast arrangement, as I find they can snap off too easily. I drill two hole in the drag plate below the cab floor and insert a U shaped piece of wire, usually from whats left over from teh hand rail wire. On the tender a vertical pin is produces to fit inside the loop, attached to the tender via a 90 degree bend and inserted in a pre drilled hole in tender front. My pics on page two this can just be made out. Best of luck Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 One Tender. just dry fitted the top to make it square and used elastic bands to hold in place, the wheels have a bit of sideways movement but run very well. Oh what fun. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 John it looks like someone has had a right go at the tender, the reason the wheels fall out is that the previous owner has filed off the raised collars around the axle holes and drilled through the axleboxes on the other side. Have you caught the model railway bug yet? and if so how about an etched kit next. Enjoy the rest of your weekend Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 John it looks like someone has had a right go at the tender, the reason the wheels fall out is that the previous owner has filed off the raised collars around the axle holes and drilled through the axleboxes on the other side. Have you caught the model railway bug yet? and if so how about an etched kit next. Enjoy the rest of your weekend Haha John, It was all pre packed so i am mostly to blame, however i never filed away any raised collars But I did drill the holes for the axles ( both sides ) Tis a learning curve John, I think the holes look better I did drill only part way as the holes were all filled up, on the outside it looked wrong to just see a small sqare so i decided to go all the way through. This model has got me in a big way i work on it every spare moment, my workbench is a household tray which i sellotaped A4 to the bottom for better sight ( dont laugh ) at least i can find a 14ba nut when i drop the thing Got the chassis to fit perfectly this morning to the body just got a bit more work to do on the pickups can you tell me more about etched kits, is that a David Geen one? Regards John F. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 John Lots of both good and bad etched kits about, you will need to either buy a new soldering iron or borrow your friends, and DONT go and buy a Jedinco kit just because they are cheap on Ebay. In fact sometimes they go for a few bob. Jokeing apart find a model that will go together a bit easier, I am amazed you have got so far with a first time build. Most first timers just open the box and shut it quickly. Re the tender, as yours is one of the latter production runs, it may have come with a plastic tender chassis. Thats why there may not be any collars around the holes. Have fun rebuilding the axle boxes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 John Just read the instructions for fitting the slide bars into the cylinder. From memory the slide bars come ready formed in a elongated U shape. The instructions say form the slide rods, I think that means make sure they are straight & square. The U part fits inside the cylinder body and you thread the cylinder back on to them. The 2 ends should stick out so the cross heads can slide along them. If all OK glue the parts together. If the U shaped bar is too big to fit into the cylinder block, then cut it in half and reduce the width (not the length) but if you do that you must make sure that the slide bars are parallel and the correct distance apart other wise the slide bars will not slide back and forwards between them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Disaster has struck once again ! I have taken great care in unpacking all the parts using a craft knife. on opening the crossheads BOTH are snapped in exactly the same place roughly in the middle, white metal is flimsly to say the least, they are too delicate to glue, can i get some more or do i have to buy a complete cylinder kit? If so could you point me in the right direction please. Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 All sorted, Got replacement crossheads from Comet ( and a few other bits as well ) John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 All sorted, Got replacement crossheads from Comet ( and a few other bits as well ) John. The slide bard may need thinning down a bit, and from memory you may have to open up the hole a bit in the rear cylinder castings. Hope the extra bits is one of their chassis (just kidding) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 16, 2012 Author Share Posted March 16, 2012 I dont know how ive progressed with so few tools but was working on something with my dremel but it has no variable speed, i came across this, very neat in the hand and 0 - 18 rpm quite impressed at least it will help when i get round to the handrail knobs. http://www.mfacomodrills.com/mini_drills/drills.html Just thought i would share. update on build coming soon I have a big prob with the slidebars and cylinders, Oh what fun. Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Quick update, well have worked on the pickups as you can see dont know if it works yet although a multimeter did show current to all six wheels, a big thanks to Richard for his time and patience with the soldering ( he offered honestly, my iron is massive ) we used Vari board instead of pcb its just what was to hand really, it`s crude ( quote richard ) i know but so is the whole model imho but im pleased with the outcome. let me know your thoughts. Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 John Sometimes crude is best, far more robust than the K's unit. Home on land line if you want a chat about the slide bars Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hughes Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 That looks a decent job; the big catch with wiper-type pickups (of which I'm quite a fan) is that if they're not quite firm enough then they don't pick up reliably, and if they're too firm then they act as brakes, but if the wheels all go round easily and the multimeter says you have good contact you should be fine. The original K's systems (there were several, culminating in the awful plastic gizmo) just weren't up to the job - at least, I never got them to work properly; all part of the K's philosophy of keeping everything as cheap (and, inevitably, nasty) as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 After all my troubles with the original K`s wheels i gave up and bought some lovely Romford Driving wheels, axles, and crank pins. they look so much better, 2 questions if i may. the axles and wheels have a square fit but its tight and i dont want to force them any advice? What does insulated mean, ive seen some where one side is insulated but how do you tell which is which. Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 What does insulated mean, ive seen some where one side is insulated but how do you tell which is which. Insulated means that one wheel is insulated from the axle, in the case of Romfords there will be a thin strip of insulating material (cork?) between the flange and the cast centre. Easiest to see from the back of the wheel. Non-insulated left, insulated right; Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Thanks Paul, Should the pickups touch all 6 wheels then? just that ive gone to a lot of trouble and dont want to muck around with what ive got in place, just need to fit new wheels. PS I like your signature, it describes me very acuratley Regards John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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