RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted January 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26, 2012 Would the current 67s not be suitable - or is there some leasing issues? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I might be wrong, but I thought that they are now authorised to continue on one engine unless the remaining operational power car is sickly They are, doesnt mean they will get up the hills though, I have seen quite a few have to reverse back down the bank into Totnes after stalling. If the nominally 2,200-ish rated Warships could take 14 coaches over Dainton and Rattery, I'd be very surprised if a single power car couldn't manage 8 Mark 3s. What about gear ratios, the warship is geared for a top speed of 90mph with quite high tractive effort figures quite low down the speed range, a HST is geared very high and the tractive effort is very low and the continuous rating speed is also very high and if they run at full power at low speed for too long the traction motors might "complain" a bit. The HST was designed for high speed running, the warship as a good all-rounder, different as chalk and cheese. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Mutiquote not responding. Re 67s, they are an obvious choice. Db may even win in october. Re old 47s with secon hand engines, never a good mix. Its well known that a good 47 would have been better refurbished. Its not the old engine either, its all the new computer stuff added on that casuses most problems. Re end of week operational probs,. I wonder if managment had thought of that ??!!!! Re HST designed for high speed running, this is true but maybe a pool can be created of regeared power cars ? plenty around after IEP kicks in. But then it does'nt solve the single end problem ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Would the current 67s not be suitable - or is there some leasing issues? They're what's used on the Scotrail Sleeper if that's any help... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 They are, doesnt mean they will get up the hills though, I have seen quite a few have to reverse back down the bank into Totnes Going slightly off topic, but this is very interesting - do they actually stall (ie too high-geared to make it up Rattery on one engine from a standing start at the bottom) or do they slip to a stand through poor adhesion? And how are they rescued from Totnes? Does Laira send out a pair of thunderbird power cars? Excellent point about the Warships' gearing - I'd forgotten that the Swindon versions had 4 speed gearboxes that could let them romp along at 105mph in 4th on the Bristolian, and also slog along in low gear with Merehead - Gatwick stone trains - very versatile! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles2 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Thanks ever so much for posting the piccy! I've looked at your photo and can see the possibilities for the Penzance layout I'm building - a 57 hauled sleeper service pulled by a pair of 43's! Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles2 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hello again! There was just one thing puzzling me with the picture - every time I've heard of Class 43's being moved as a pair, they have had a barrier coach in between them but these don't.? Anyone know of any reasons why with either way? Thanks! Charles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 43s have always been able to be used back to back. Barrier coaches are normally used when a loco is coupled to the rear of a power car due to no buffers on an HST. There is the emergency coupling bar for use at the front but with speed restrictions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Wonder if they or who ever follows them wil hire DRS,s new loco,s or perhaps add a few onto the order?Problem solved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogauge83A Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hello again! There was just one thing puzzling me with the picture - every time I've heard of Class 43's being moved as a pair, they have had a barrier coach in between them but these don't.? Anyone know of any reasons why with either way? Thanks! Charles As Cornish Paul says they can be coupled back to back, or use of barrier vehicles when standard locomotives used, I've got many variants with 47s and 57s etc usually with barriers for when the power cars were going for re engineering or on test (usually Laira to Laira via Newton Abbot as the Devon Banks give a good test). When the 57/6s were based at Plymouth the train was sometimes formed 57/6 +barrier+ power car so when the train reversed at Newton the power car led, but now mostly its just 2 power cars. I do have a shot of 2 fgw 43s with a Midland Mainline mk3 while they were on one of the above tests, unknown why the mk3 was there tho... Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Perhaps if they're going to rewire the sleepers to 3 phase the logic would be to put a power car on at each end anyway and have a Sleeper-HST - after all, the HSTs are due for general replacement at some time in the not too-distant future and there are one or two surplus to daily requirements. It would certainly solve the problem of having an extra locomotive at Paddington. JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charles2 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Thank you for your replies about that! Looks like maybe another Hornby pair of FGW 43's maybe in order (but don't tell the wife just yet ;) !)!!! Tony - any chance of seeing that piccy :) ??? Many thanks, Charles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 With maintainence, i can assure you that on FGW, we are nearly always -1 for standby duties even if the service is complete ! At the end of the day, there are the options i have mentioned above so we shall see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve fay Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 One HST power car and a MK3 DVT? DVT fitted with a generator like the ones on Chiltern to supply the train heating air con etc leaving the power car to give the grunt, theres plenty of them hanging around ( DVT ). All rewired to suit HST push pull operations. A freind of mine untill recently worked for FGW and the class 57s are based at Exeter along with all the drivers so if something goes wrong Old Oak or Bristol cant supply drivers but as they are nearly all trained on class 43s then it does seem like a better option than the current 57 use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Triang Paul Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Night Riviera drivers are EX. On - train staff are PZ or Pad. 57s are OC and all stock is PZ ( current staff member PZ ) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 One HST power car and a MK3 DVT? DVT fitted with a generator like the ones on Chiltern to supply the train heating air con etc leaving the power car to give the grunt, theres plenty of them hanging around ( DVT ). All rewired to suit HST push pull operations. Or the cheaper soloution would be to fit the HST powercars with TDM (has been done before) as it would save on a truck load of rewiring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogauge83A Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Thank you for your replies about that! Looks like maybe another Hornby pair of FGW 43's maybe in order (but don't tell the wife just yet ;) !)!!! Tony - any chance of seeing that piccy :) ??? Many thanks, Charles. give us a couple of days, got to find it... Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted January 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29, 2012 Going slightly off topic, but this is very interesting - do they actually stall (ie too high-geared to make it up Rattery on one engine from a standing start at the bottom) or do they slip to a stand through poor adhesion? And how are they rescued from Totnes? Does Laira send out a pair of thunderbird power cars? The Western Route Sectional Appendix lists the conditions when a 2+7 or a 2+8 HST can ascent the Devon Banks on one engine. Without going into the details, the Totnes stop will be omitted under certain circumstances if the set cannot get a clear run up the bank after departing the station, eg. a speed restriction or poor rail adhesion reported. This will certainly require the remaining power car to be in good mechanical order. There are similar restrictions published for the Lickey Incline and also certain other banks, some of which are even more restrictive than Dainton, Hemerdon & Rattery (such as St Davids to Exeter Central). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Or the cheaper soloution would be to fit the HST powercars with TDM (has been done before) as it would save on a truck load of rewiring. And how would you provide the ETH? - HST's use a unique 3 phase ETH system which is not compatable with the standard loco hauled stuff, so either rewire all your sleepers and lose compatability with anything else, convert a pool of HST power cars to give standard ETH as well as three phase, or the cheaper solution of just stick a generator in a DVT as suggested... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 30, 2012 43 power on the sleepers is almost a case of "back to the future". The old Voith Warships (class 43) used to be regular performers in their day and in the days when there were two overnight trains both sometimes loading to 12 - 14 bogies. A little work will be required but there should be no technical reason why fixed-formation night sets could not be formed up with what effectively would be a 2+7 Mk3 formation either with a single 43 and a DVT + generator or with a 43 on both ends. Timings are not an issue. Unless more vehicles are found and added to the sets loading should not be either. But I don't forsee a day when I can once again travel - as I did on the first occasion I used the overnight service - behind D1072 from Paddington and exchanged at Plymouth for D601. Nice! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Or as a new chap working in the Control years ago suggested we could turn a set on the Exeter triangle!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Or as a new chap working in the Control years ago suggested we could turn a set on the Exeter triangle!! Would that be the one that consists of Yeovil Junction and Westbury...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterbournecm Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Not sure - we're still looking for it! I think he thought the st Davids incline had a direct curve from Exeter Central to St Thomas. Hmm could be useful come to think of it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 And how would you provide the ETH? - HST's use a unique 3 phase ETH system which is not compatable with the standard loco hauled stuff, so either rewire all your sleepers and lose compatability with anything else, convert a pool of HST power cars to give standard ETH as well as three phase, or the cheaper solution of just stick a generator in a DVT as suggested... Sorry, should have been clearer - I was referring only to the proposal to rewire the DVT and the coaching stock for HST MU control - you'll still need the DVT with generator but you save an awful lot of unnecessary expense if you just convert the PCs, plus it allows the stock to remain compatible with other haulage options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Ah I see - thought you meant ditch the DVT idea completely and have TDM equiped powercars front and rear. I wonder how many powercars you would have to fit with TDM to have an adequate pool available - I have a feeling that the buffer equiped ones had the TDM removed so I am not sure if reallocating the lease on existing poawercars would be an option, but as you say since it already has been done before it surely cannot be particularly expensive to do a conversion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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