Kallaroonian Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 In a much earlier thread I asked some questions about Peco point motors : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/21904-peco-point-motors-and-switches/page__fromsearch__1 I can’t actually believe that was so long ago….. Anyway the building of the layout has now progressed a little and I have also been giving some thought to the question of whether to use DCC point control or not. I also need to consider cost because the layout will eventually have a lot of points and I have to keep the total bill under some control. One of the things that has interested me is the assertion that once you have added frog power routing switches to the cost of a Peco motor you might as well go for the Cobalt device (which is arguably the Rolls Royce of switching solutions). This thread is not about debating the technical merits of the options. I don’t dispute at all that a relatively quiet (no thump) movement of the switch blades at a realistic speed is considerably better than the rapid, noisy solenoid driven point throw. I just debate whether I can afford that and so what interested me was whether the overall Peco solution actually does approach the cost of using the Cobalts. The results were surprising and I thought I would post them for comment : Peco motor bulk via Hattons, deduct VAT (I’m in Australia) and assume zero for postage as they would be ordered in bulk with bulk track = $5.13 AUD per point + Latching relay, veroboard, DIL socket from Australian supplier = $3.47 AUD per point incl assumed amount for postage (noting relay is $2.20 but as cheap as 88p /$1.30 in bulk from UK) + ESU switchpilot 30GBP less VAT plus assumed postage = $10.36 per point Cobalt motors in bulk 290AUD plus postage = $25 per point + No switches required (incorporated in Cobalt) + Cobalt accessory decoder AUD 55 = $13.75 AUD per point This gives a total cost excl DCC control of $8.60 for Peco and $25 for Cobalt. The total cost including DCC decoder is $18.95 for Peco and $38.75 for Cobalt. The difference was much more pronounced than I expected. Comments welcome. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2012 Price is forgotten long after quality remains. PS - I consider Tortoise the "Rolls Royce" but I've never used Cobalt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Beast - generally I agree but in this case there are two sides to it : - which solution will continue to work reliably = both (or all three incl tortoise) - which solution will operate prototypically = not Peco So it depends on the definition of quality in your implication that quality will only remain in the higher cost options. I would have a different view if I thought the Peco solution was less reliable, but I don't regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2012 Peco motors are a lot harder on points, the switches for polarity switching are an add-on and not a designed in feature. We have around 100 Tortoises on Widnes, the only issue was a caused by a rough shunt whilst transporting, and some of our points will move hundreds of times per day during a show. It's your call at the end of the day, but I know what my choice would be (assuming money is not a major obstacle). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Beasts point about the wear on points by using Solenoids is very valid and should be taken into consideration when choosing what you are going to use. Ive used SEEP PM4s on New Hey and I cant think of one show where Ive not had to solder a switch rail back onto the TOU bar - they are very fierce. Not so bad if your layout only sees occasional use! Just to throw a further one in the pot Im using the Finney and Smith (Hoffmann) motors on the new North Ballachulish layout - Ive heard so many good things about them it would be rude not to. BUT they are expensive, in the Tortoise price range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I do respect your opinion. However, the Tortoise option comes out around $20.5 per point excluding any DCC decoder so it is about 2.5 times as expensive compared with 3x for Cobalt. With well over 100 this is a major issue since my layout is a home build, not a club layout. In the scenario I have the polarity switching is via latching relays which require effort to build onto a veroboard but are probably more reliable than mechanical switches. They will certainly be easier to replace because I will mount them in DIL sockets. I am also a little doubtful that a Peco motor - while harder on a point - could actually eventually destroy it in operation.The peco motors are also smaller which might be an issue where I have height issues between the two levels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2012 Since you're in Perth, why not go and see DCC Concepts? I'm sure Richard would be able to demonstrate exactly why Cobalt (or any other similar point motor) are vastly a better option than Peco point motors. You forgot to factor in the fact that Peco motors can be a pain to set up reliably, especially the accessary switches. They are known to fall off the points from time to time causing shorts (the point blades can change polarity & the switch is stuck in one position. Ultimately its your choice, but with Cobalt's you would only need to do the job once. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Guys we are slightly missing the point. I don't dispute that technically, in the sense of executing a prototypical throw, the Cobalt is a better product. Or the Tortoise. *The gist of the email was to express surprise at the overall price difference and to put to bed the assertion that some make that once you've added switches to a Peco motor it will all come out around the same price. No it doesn't. II would be using solid state latching relays for the polarity switching and not the Peco switches. I very much doubt that the Peco solenoids by themselves are less reliable than a Cobalt or a Tortosie. So in the end, for me, the core issue is whether that extra realism is worth the extra money. Bear in mind that with over 100 points to fund personally the difference, ignoring the DCC control element, is $900 vs $2500. For me, it's just not remotely worth it. Again though, the core point of the thread was at * rather than a technical discussion or pros and cons rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2012 Guys we are slightly missing the point. I don't dispute that technically, in the sense of executing a prototypical throw, the Cobalt is a better product. Or the Tortoise. Has anyone mentioned this aside from you? Maybe a posting was made with my invisible ink but I can't see anyone mentioning this as a reason to use one or the other motor ? *The gist of the email was to express surprise at the overall price difference and to put to bed the assertion that some make that once you've added switches to a Peco motor it will all come out around the same price. No it doesn't. Nothing to discuss then, you've established the prices, you say it's a lot (too much) for you to spend, what more can we discuss? it's a pointless discussion if you aren't actually having one, you might as well have asked for the thread to be locked. I'm confused Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcanbomber Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Has anyone mentioned this aside from you? Maybe a posting was made with my invisible ink but I can't see anyone mentioning this as a reason to use one or the other motor ? Nothing to discuss then, you've established the prices, you say it's a lot (too much) for you to spend, what more can we discuss? it's a pointless discussion if you aren't actually having one, you might as well have asked for the thread to be locked. I'm confused Aren't we forgetting reliabilty.On my home layout I use either seeps in the fiddle yard o & tortoise in the viewing area I do prefer the tortoise motors, but have been suprised how noisy they are. On the layout at the club whcih I joined they intially used peco motors with switches, but these are bing replaced with seeps, because we find the Peco switchws are very flimsly for a portable layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2012 Have you tried going direct to the manufactures of the colbot's to see if they can give you an even better price for the combined package? Given the numbers you are looking at getting I suspect you might get a rather good deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The questions I would ask is "who will see the layout"? Is it just yourself & some friends or are you going for exhibition standard whatever that is ? If its just yourself & you don't mind the noise of a Peco or Seep point motor then its an easy choice. A solenoid motor can run for years without problems and if your not changing the points all day long like at an exhibition then you're unlikely to run into point damage. If on the other hand money is not a problem & you want it to look like prototype switching then Tortoise or Cobalt is the way to go. Having said that some points on the real railway can slap over with a bit of a thud as well. They don't all work gently & sweet like a Tortoise or Cobalt. The difference in cost can be hard to justify. Point switching can be as cheap or as expensive as you want to make it. Don't forget there's also mechanical switching which can be done on a shoestring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallaroonian Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I guess the discussion is whatever it might be. I was posting the thread as info given I had assumed the assertion above was true (ie that once you've added switches to a Peco motor it will all come out around the same price) and found out that it's nowhere close to true. I might ask Richard about a super bulk discount but he would have to be able to move a very long way to get close. The layout is unmoveable in my loft so it is not going to get exhibition level use. rgds Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
amdaley Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 If you're using wireless DCC control & you're not stuck at a control panel you could even consider local mechanical point switching in which case you wouldn't need any point motors at all. All you'd need is a slide switch & some piano wire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brossard Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'm with Kevin on the issue of setting up the accessory switch with solenoid motors. The SEEP (with integral aux switch) is, to me a better bet than Peco but, particularly with hand built points, the aux switch can be a problem. If you make your points with finer blade gaps than those found on Peco points (and they really are HUGE) then you may have difficulty getting enough throw to make the aux switch contacts in both directions. On our layout (equipped with SEEP) at Railfair in Ottawa in October, there were several points that caused problems. We will go with slow motion point motors in future (I know I would having used them on a previous layout) despite the higher cost. An alternative to aux switching of "frog" polarity is the "Frog Juicer" (http://www.handlaidtrack.com/Hex-Frog-Juicer-Automatic-Frog-Switch-s/2088.htm) . I have looked into it but not tried it. This option adds even more cost to the system. There is a thread here that discusses it ( http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49663-hex-frog-juicer-queries/page__hl__juicer__fromsearch__1) It all comes down to individual preference. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 All I can add is that I used to use Peco solenoids (never on DCC) many years ago I changed to Tortoise* and for some reason I find them cheap (but my time is money, and the reliability and simplicity of installation - by comparison is worth lots of $$$ and peace of mind) So to me there is no comparison on price it is like comparing a silk shirt to a ex WD khaki) I would never go back. As for adding DCC when if you can afford DCC for your locos then cost of adding accessory decoders is immaterial. *Cobalts were not around all those years ago. I see them as a ME2 development and appreciate they may be just as good, but I'm too set in my belief to take the risk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2012 If you are making up your mind to go down the Peco route have you looked at the price of seep units (PM1). These include the switch that you would have to buy with the Peco ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 If you are making up your mind to go down the Peco route have you looked at the price of seep units (PM1). These include the switch that you would have to buy with the Peco ones. The OP seems to have spec'd decent switches to go with his Peco points though. The Peco and Seep ones in comparison are rubbish. I tend to think of slow motion motors as a must for the delicate hand built track I deal with and the only alternative is servos. For Peco track there isn't really much issue using solenoids unless you don't like the thunk. A decent reed switch and you're fine, Cobalt motors were a response to the Tortoise and compete with them but are smaller, have easier electrical connections and the internal switch is supposed to be better (I haven't taken one apart to see). We've been hit by the exchange rate here to an extent. Peco is UK made, Tortoise US and Cobalt sold via Australia.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Just as an aside if you go for Model Aircraft type servomotors you can almost halve the cost by comparison with Peco and have the slow motion reliability into the bargain. Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 - which solution will operate prototypically = not Peco Depends on the prototype. Some switch machines (westinghouse EP) 'snap' like a peco motor. For manual throw signallers tend to do a double pull which isn't like either. Cobalts are better put together than tortoise but you can't throw them by hand which is a massive disadvantage in my book especially when building and testing the layout Hth Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted February 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2012 For manual throw signallers tend to do a double pull which isn't like either. Not always Jim, often it was one smooth motion, but they were called signalmen and signalwomen in those days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Not always Jim, often it was one smooth motion, but they were called signalmen and signalwomen in those days. But seldom at New Brighton,where, despite the fact the points were outside the box it was a b****y heavy frame Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Depends on the prototype. Some switch machines (westinghouse EP) 'snap' like a peco motor. Jim I have seen water go six feet in the air when an EP point motor moved a switch with water laying between the blade and stock rail. Back in 00 I also find SEEP motors to be more reliable than the Cobalt type. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike knowles Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Just as an aside if you go for Model Aircraft type servomotors you can almost halve the cost by comparison with Peco and have the slow motion reliability into the bargain. Regards Keith I've used Tower Pro servos and control boards bought as kits from MERG (dead easy to build-you don't need to be an electronics boffin) to control the signals on our club layout. They have been installed for about 2-3 years now and have been to a number of exhibitions and have proved totally reliable. Cost per signal (or point) about £4.50 (GBP). Require a bit of installation work but nothing too difficult, or you can get ready to install servo motors for point operation from the likes of SWD but then cost does go up. The advantage of servos is you can control the speed and range of movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 .....I was posting the thread as info given I had assumed the assertion above was true (ie that once you've added switches to a Peco motor it will all come out around the same price) and found out that it's nowhere close to true...... ....The gist of the email was to express surprise at the overall price difference and to put to bed the assertion that some make that once you've added switches to a Peco motor it will all come out around the same price. No it doesn't. ..... You are not using a fair comparison in your reasoning here, because you have introduced an element of DIY into your figures. I wont dispute that by building your own circuit board with latching relays will save a sizeable cost with over 100 points to consider, but that could equally be said about anything where you DIY rather than buy off-the-shelf. If a fair, like for like comparison is used, there's a different story to tell and the difference between the cost of Peco (with their own switches fitted) and Tortoise is very close. So close that in some cases the Tortoise option can be cheaper, depending on where you get them from and what combination of Peco products are being used in the comparison. Using UK prices (including 20% VAT) Tortoise is generally approx. £14.50 (£13.50 each in bulk packs) However they are available from a good source for £13.00 (£12.00 in bulk packs) The Tortoise (and the Cobalt, Traintronics etc) have a built-in twin switch. Adding the equivalent Peco twin switch to their point motor will bring the cost up to between £10.50 and £14.50, depending on where you buy them from. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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