Seacow, Dogfish,........or both?!

[ZiderHead]

some great info and pics in this thread, exactly the stuff Ive been looking for

[Norm81]

This seems as relevant a place as any to ask, any issues with me running bauxite & olive green sealions with an olive green and/or dutch liveried shark(s)?

 

I think the dutch shark may be a little outside my era which is really BR Blue/Railfreight red stripe in the 1980's?

 

I guess the sealions won't always need the shark as they're dual braked (I think......), only if heading to be unloaded?

[Dungrange]

According to Eric Gent in his book "British Railway Brakevans and Ballast Ploughs", Olive Green was offically superceded in 1983.  Dutch livery was first applied to a Shark in 1983, but only to those vehicles passing through Doncaster Wagon Works.  Other repair depots appear to have continued to use remaining stocks of olive or black.  Within five years, approximately 70 ballast ploughs received this colour scheme and ultimately 92 are known to have received this livery (although to some, Dutch livery may have been applied as late as the onset of shadow privatisation).

 

I don't know which ones were repainted when, although there is a photograph of ZUV DB993927 at Toton on 16th April 1984 carrying Dutch livery.

 

On that basis, I see no reason why you could not operate a black, olive or Dutch shark with your bauxite and olive sealions, although black would have been very rare after 1984.  993767 apparently went from Black to Dutch in 1984 and was among the last survivors in Black.

 

You are correct in that sealions were dual braked (air and AFI vacuum brakes).

 

Regards

 

David

[Satan's Goldfish]

Back on this horse again...

 

Having reached a quiet point for other modelling things, i'm aiming to have this particular train all wrapped up and done. Still 2 wagons shy, I've found myself drawn to adding a pair of Olive Green Sealions to break up the uniform Dutch-ness. Aiming for a pair of Bachmann 'lions (I worked out why I wasn't interested in Bachmann's Dutch Sealions, aesthetically I didn't like the thickness of the yellow stripe).

 

So the new question is this; I'm fairly confident some Sealions were still about rocking Olive Green into the '90s, although probable with some extreme weathering and dents. But would they have had the safety meshes fitted without being re-painted into Dutch? Pic's I've seen of Bachmann's model don't have these.

 

Cheers

[class"66"]

More interesting pictures and information...

[Fat Controller]

Back on this horse again...

 

Having reached a quiet point for other modelling things, i'm aiming to have this particular train all wrapped up and done. Still 2 wagons shy, I've found myself drawn to adding a pair of Olive Green Sealions to break up the uniform Dutch-ness. Aiming for a pair of Bachmann 'lions (I worked out why I wasn't interested in Bachmann's Dutch Sealions, aesthetically I didn't like the thickness of the yellow stripe).

 

So the new question is this; I'm fairly confident some Sealions were still about rocking Olive Green into the '90s, although probable with some extreme weathering and dents. But would they have had the safety meshes fitted without being re-painted into Dutch? Pic's I've seen of Bachmann's model don't have these.

 

Cheers

This wagon seems to still be in green (though it might just be all-over rust):-

http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/Y-Tops-codes/YGABH-SeacowSealion-bogie/i-SG7m8Dh/A

Someone thought this one was a Banana Van:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsealion/hebe812a#hebe812a

This one will give an indication of how early safety cages were fitted:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsealion/h4bd3cf4#h4bd3cf4

[Satan's Goldfish]

This wagon seems to still be in green (though it might just be all-over rust):-

http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/Y-Tops-codes/YGABH-SeacowSealion-bogie/i-SG7m8Dh/A

Someone thought this one was a Banana Van:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsealion/hebe812a#hebe812a

This one will give an indication of how early safety cages were fitted:-

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsealion/h4bd3cf4#h4bd3cf4

 

Smashing stuff, cheers FC

[Satan's Goldfish]

Well I finally have my last 2 wagons to complete this little project. They're in EWS rather than olive green livery but are with Dan of 'Dan's Dirty Diesels now waiting to get a little back dating to the correct colour and a good heavy weathering. 

 

I tasked the wife with getting a picture of the whole train on 'Warren Lane' over the weekend, but she only got it in pieces, so the best I can do is it passing on the video below:

 

 

When it's all been treated by Dan i'll be making some fresh ballast loads to fit in the hoppers.

[Shed]

looking good 

[deltic79]

When the welded Seacows were introduced in 1982, since they were air braked from new, were a number of Sharks converted to air brake/piped to work with them? The only images of ZUAs I can find all seem to date from the 90s so I wonder if they were piped as ZUW in the 80s and, presumably, marshalled in the centre of the train?

 

Any help is much appreciated.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Sorry I can't help with the above question, hopefully one of the more knowledgeable will be a long shortly!

I now have all of my wagons back after re-painting for the olive green pair and weathering for the rest of them. Ballast loads will be added in due course.

 

To spice it up a little more, the first Seacow pictured below has had a generator added for a conversion into a Stingray. Which of course leads to more rake questions as the Stingray seems to a bit of a rare beast. Where in the set up would the Stingray be located? Front, Middle, or Rear? Or doesn't it matter?

 

 

 

 

Cheers!
 

[Trog]

It is a very long while ago since I was playing with those things but I seem to remember you needed one Stingray for every five lit wagons, (Including the Stingray). The positioning was not important as we virtually never used them as it was easier to unload using lamps and torches than fiddle about getting the lights to work.

[Satan's Goldfish]

It is a very long while ago since I was playing with those things but I seem to remember you needed one Stingray for every five lit wagons, (Including the Stingray). The positioning was not important as we virtually never used them as it was easier to unload using lamps and torches than fiddle about getting the lights to work.

 

Ah bodged technology at it's finest! Fitted in nicely with number of wagons i have anyway then. Cheers Trog.

[Dungrange]

When the welded Seacows were introduced in 1982, since they were air braked from new, were a number of Sharks converted to air brake/piped to work with them? The only images of ZUAs I can find all seem to date from the 90s so I wonder if they were piped as ZUW in the 80s and, presumably, marshalled in the centre of the train?

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

In Eric Gent's book "British Railways Brake Vans & Ballast Ploughs" there is the following information:

 

During 1984 a decision was made to fit a limited number of ballast ploughs with air brakes for use on the Eastern and Western Regions, for use with air-braked Sea Lion and Sea Cow bogie ballast hoppers.  The Western vehicles were concentrated in the southwest of England where all trains were to be air-braked/piped by 1984.  The Eastern vehicles were sent along the East Coast Mainline to Peterborough, Doncaster and York.  All the vehicles were fitted with just a single air pipe, fitted onto the headstock on the right hand side of the coupling.  An air gauge and control were fitted inside the cabin for the guard's use.  Twenty two ballast ploughs were so altered, and as a result three new design codes were issed as follows:

 

ZU501G (all formerly ZU501A) 993723/34/42/45-49/52/57/68/76/93; 993828/30/32/33/57/92; 993905

ZU501H (previously ZU501F) 993800

ZU501J (previously ZU501E) 993939

 

All these ballast ploughs therefore became TOPS code ZUW.  Further changes gradually took place into the 1990s, viz

993823/842 to ZUA (air brake only)

993715/18/27/38/77/95, 806/07/26/40/73/76/82, 902/08/14/19/22/24/28/29 to ZUB (air braked vacuum piped) and

993719/22/40/60/62/64/86/90/91, 817/27/34/36/45/46/50/54/84, 918/27/37 to ZUW (vacuum braked / air piped)

 

Many of these also went to the West Coast Main Line and the Midland Main Line.

 

There isn't any mention of where they were marshalled in the train, so I can't help with that part of your query.

 

Regards

 

David

 

.

[deltic79]

Excellent, thanks for that David. It confirms my thoughts.

 

For the train t be considered fitted I guess the piped Shark would need to be a certain number of wagons from the end of the train to ensure enough brake force was present behind it. I'm sure someone on here would be able to confirm if I'm correct.

[Rivercider]

Excellent, thanks for that David. It confirms my thoughts.

 

For the train t be considered fitted I guess the piped Shark would need to be a certain number of wagons from the end of the train to ensure enough brake force was present behind it. I'm sure someone on here would be able to confirm if I'm correct.

Yes, for a train to run fully fitted any piped only vehicle/s had to have a minimum of 3 braked vehicles behind piped up and with their brakes in working order,

 

cheers

[Satan's Goldfish]

Just so I've got it right in my head following the info above; my Shark is TOPS code ZUA (air brake only) and the Limpets and Seacows it runs with are also air braked. The shark is not a 'piped' wagon in this consist so it doesn't need to have 3 wagons behind it for brake force, but as mentioned earlier it does need at least 1 wagon behind because those Sharks had a habit of 'digging in' if there wasn't a load behind them. Have I got that correct? (i.e. is what i'm running 'plausible'?!)
 

Just to mix it up, I've been eyeing up the Dapol Grampus on Hattons website......
 

[ess1uk]

just when i think i'm getting my head round it all

[LaGrange]

OK next question - would mermaids and dogfish ever have run together?

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi there,

 

Yes - Dogfish and Mermaids run together.

 

In fact - there was a separate code for the - Merdog.

 

Semi permanently coupled..

 

Enables the full width of a track to have ballast spread over it.

 

Thanks

[newbryford]

Hi there,

 

Yes - Dogfish and Mermaids run together.

 

In fact - there was a separate code for the - Merdog.

 

Semi permanently coupled..

 

Enables the full width of a track to have ballast spread over it.

 

Thanks

 

Merdog - only slightly better that the alternate Dogmaid................

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Rivercider]

OK next question - would mermaids and dogfish ever have run together?

On the Western Region they would usually have been in separate trains on weekend ballast sites,

but may have been seen together on transit moves during the week.

 

Here is a mixed set at Litchfield, on the Midland Region,  not a location I know well, so don't know if this was regular.  

Litchfield Trent Valley, 25278, catfish, dogfish, sealion, 7 mermaids, three turbots, 17/6/86

 

cheers

Edited June 5, 2015 by Rivercider

[Shed]

On the Western Region they would usually have been in separate trains on weekend ballast sites,

but may have been seen together on transit moves during the week.

 

Here is a mixed set at Litchfield, on the Midland Region,  not a location I know well, so don't know if this was regular.  

scan0017a.jpg

Litchfield Trent Valley, 25278, catfish, dogfish, sealion, 7 mermaids, three turbots, 17/6/86

 

cheers

That would make an interesting train to model

[class"66"]

More interesting stuff

 

 

cheers neil..

[Shed]

Just so I've got it right in my head following the info above; my Shark is TOPS code ZUA (air brake only) and the Limpets and Seacows it runs with are also air braked. The shark is not a 'piped' wagon in this consist so it doesn't need to have 3 wagons behind it for brake force, but as mentioned earlier it does need at least 1 wagon behind because those Sharks had a habit of 'digging in' if there wasn't a load behind them. Have I got that correct? (i.e. is what i'm running 'plausible'?!)

 

Just to mix it up, I've been eyeing up the Dapol Grampus on Hattons website......

 

were Grampus air braked?