Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[Physicsman]

Jeff,

 

Camera (ans spare set of batteries) are always in the work (tesco's) bag waiting for action. It's mostly full of my kit bashed WCJS compo sleeper at the minute, so some other railway stuff would make a change!

 

I'll get some photos tomorrow and see what they come out like!

 

I really ought to do a full photographic survay of this place at some point, you never know I might make a model of it when I'm old and grey!

 

Andy G

 

Where do you work Andy? There seem to be a few signalbox men on this forum incl. Paul on the S&C and James in North Yorkshire.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Jeff,

Re ballasting, I'd do a very short test piece on perhaps a scrap length of track.

 

Then post up the picture for any comments.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

 

[Physicsman]

Jeff,

Re ballasting, I'd do a very short test piece on perhaps a scrap length of track.

 

Then post up the picture for any comments.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

I'll certainly be doing that Peter. You know me - there'll probably be several pictures!! Then I'll blame you lot when it doesn't look so good!

 

I think it'll be a couple of weeks before I get to that stage. I reckon I'll be doing the scenic area of track for the next week, then I'll fit a power bus, start connecting and testing.

 

Please remind me (as you did with the branch-loop catch point) if I show no signs of ballast pics.

 

Jeff

[uax6]

Jeff,

 

I'm down in Cambridgeshire at the minute, under the wires. We have a lovely little box, and there's enough time to do modelling inbetween trains! If you ask my boss, he swears i've rebuilt the whole of my van up here....!

 

Andy G

[Mythocentric]

I don't think you'll be disappointed with the lack of Spaceshps Bill. One of my favourite locos and a mainstay of the S&C as far as I'm concerned. I'm just wondering how many wagons I'll get to pull over the viaduct! Peter in Melbourne (PCM) has been egging me on about this since about page 5 of this thread!

 

I really appreciate the compliments. Some of what I'll be doing will be very new to me. I'm a great fan of scenery, but I've never used static grasses, so that'll be fun. Your views on what it looks like will be sought and considered!!

 

Back home tomorrow, so more tracklaying I hope. Presently sat in the car with the laptop on my knee. Bl***y cold out here!

 

Best wishes to lovely Morecambe from jewel-in-the-crown Barrow!!

 

Jeff

 

I quite agree with you about the Spaceships, superb machines! Watching them run through Blackburn with the Long Meg was always a joy to behold with that seemingly endless string of hoppers in tow, so as to how many wagons you haul over the viaduct basically comes down to how long is your fiddle yard? I'm trying to find an excuse to run one on a L&Y branch line but I've already used Rule 1 to allow a G2A, another favourite after seeing one haul a long van train up the incline out of Preston Dock as a kid. Fireworks and (somewhat wheesy) thunder galore! So, all suggestions (excuses) welcome!

 

Static grass is great stuff to work with. Just remember not to sneeze as you shake it out. I generally use a mix of 50% main colour with 25% each slightly lighter and darker shades to give a realistic variation.

 

Jewel-in-the-crown! Barrow? I thought that was Silecroft! One of my favourite fishing spots. Park almost on the beach, toilets nearby and, usually, no people around to ask why I have'nt caught anything!

 

Regards

 

Bill

[Physicsman]

Jeff,

 

I'm down in Cambridgeshire at the minute, under the wires. We have a lovely little box, and there's enough time to do modelling inbetween trains! If you ask my boss, he swears i've rebuilt the whole of my van up here....!

 

Andy G

 

Sounds like you'll have plenty of time to take some lovely photos then!! You clearly enjoy your job. Thanks for the info and look forward to any pics you can post.

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Morning Bill. I'll add a couple more 9Fs to my fleet once I get sorted. I also need a couple more Britannias. Saw 70000 at Grosmont in May - what a superb machine. I'm aware of the haulage capacity of the G2A; not sure if it's a relevant loco on the S&C. Anybody wish to comment?

 

The longest road in the fiddle yard is around 2.7 metres, so I ought to get a loco and around 25 wagons in there. Adequate, I think.

 

As for the static grass, what kind of applicator do you use? Have you got a Grass Master or are you using the humble puffer bottle? I've always built my grass areas from layers of flock, so a few fibres will certainly enhance the result. Another place to experiment in the future.

 

Jeff

[Old Gringo]

Morning Jeff,

 

In a previous post (1147) you asked, "Btw, have you any particular preference for putting a camber into a curve? I've got curves at both ends ranging from approx. 60" radius to 40". I seem to remember fitting thin strips of 20thou plastikard under the outer rail in a previous layout. Maybe any other readers could give their experiences on this an airing?"

 

I see that "Coldgunner" asked this question in "Modelling questions, helps and tips" - topic currently on page 7 and last answered on 28th Sept., where there's a short discussion and a couple of suggestions including the plastikard method. However, I see that on Greenfield, Larry has produced his superelevation by shaving the cork to get the level required and this method will undoubtably support the track better than strips; plus it's prototypical and looks great.

 

Superelevation is subject to a series of formulas, which are set out in the book "British Railway Track" (several editions published by the Permanent Way Institution from 1943 onwards). In the 1964 ed., relevant to your period, on p386, it states that the maximum cant allowed on the prototype at that time was 6 inches. Obviously we can push it more on our models, as we're employing tighter curves, but I'd be wary of going too far. I'm sure that being of a scientific bent, you'd love all these formulae, for the Equilibrium Cant, etc!!!!!

 

Right, apparently I've more jobs to do today, so no modelling the tunnel-mouth for BCB! Hope this helps.

 

All the best,

 

John.

[Physicsman]

I think that Larry's canting has triggered my subconcious mind on this subject. I'll have a look at what he's done - the jury is still out on whether I'll follow suit.

 

Thanks John - enjoy whatever tasks SWMBO (or whoever) have set for you! If it's any consolation, no modelling for me while my dad's here...

 

Jeff

[coachmann]

I think that Larry's canting has triggered my subconcious mind on this subject. I'll have a look at what he's done - the jury is still out on whether I'll follow suit.

Jeff

 

If you introduce cambers by whatever method, I don't think you will regret it. I first used them on my original Greenfield five years ago but as I ballast during track laying the contour of the cork under the outside rail showed under the ballast. If you intend ballasting later using the dropper method it won't show.

 

We probably all attach a lot of importance to super detail and a decent percentage of modellers go further by adopting EM and P4 gauges. Yet track is often attached straight onto the flat baseboard even though camber is part and parcel of real railway track.

Edited October 28, 2012 by coachmann

[Physicsman]

If you introduce cambers by whatever method, I don't think you will regret it. I first used them on my original Greenfield five years ago but as I ballast during track laying the contour of the cork under the outside rail showed under the ballast. If you intend ballasting later using the dropper method it won't show.

 

We probably all attach a lot of importance to super detail and a decent percentage of modellers go further by adopting EM and P4 gauges. Yet track is often attached straight onto the flat baseboard even though camber is part and parcel of real railway track.

 

Larry, I'm sure it was the photos of the locos on the cambered track near Greenfield that sparked my interest. I'll have a think about this, but I'm thinking of chamfering cork from wide at the outside rail to zero at the inner - only on the curved parts and with the chamfered stuff sat on top of the existing 3mm layer. If John's (Old Gringo) maximum cant of 6" is correct, that would make a maximum cant of (roughly) 6" in 4'8" or about 1 in 10.

 

That sounds very steep to me. Even 1 in 20 is a 1mm rise across the width of the rail. I'll have to think about this!

 

Jeff

[The Stationmaster]

Too right Jeff, even with my biggish loft (keys handed over on 9 Nov hopefully) not many have room for a true prototype model that will satisfy us who want to watch trains go by. Mine will be a Peak Line hybrid and will (again hopefully) look "Midland" although I am struggling to find junction station track plans. The S&C ones have a web site, does anybody know of other sites for other Midland ones?

Sorry to butt in yet again Jeff but this might be a good place to pick up on Jonathan's question about looking for track layouts. Now regrettably this method doesn't work too well for the Midland (yet, things will probably change) but all you have to do is bang into the the google search box 'xxxx signalbox diagram' (where xxxx is the place or, preferably signalbox, name).

 

The results can be a bit hit & miss but if there is an SRS diagram it will show up fairly near the top of the list and you might be able to date it. Or - and this is where you need to be careful - you might get something like the picture below which is 'modern' and could therefore be very wrong for steam days and would therefore need careful checking against old photos

or here if you feel like buying (I suspect this site might be worth further exploration if it is who I think it is, click on 'track layouts' in the list top left of page)

http://shop.studio433.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1781

[jukebox]

I think it's worth doing Jeff - just remember that we run a lot sharper than scale curves, and at speed on those curves the real tjing would never attempt, so the superelevation a prototype formula might give is not always strictly correct... to me, 3mm sounds like a lot; I would have thought half that would be enough to give the suggestion that it's there. But it's horses for courses - maybe try a test section off layout with a pair of parallel tracks using two extremes of inclination, and see what you think.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[Physicsman]

I think it's worth doing Jeff - just remember that we run a lot sharper than scale curves, and at speed on those curves the real tjing would never attempt, so the superelevation a prototype formula might give is not always strictly correct... to me, 3mm sounds like a lot; I would have thought half that would be enough to give the suggestion that it's there. But it's horses for courses - maybe try a test section off layout with a pair of parallel tracks using two extremes of inclination, and see what you think.

 

Cheers

Scott

 

I've realised that things aren't going to be quite as simple as they might have been. The curves at both ends of the layout have turnouts built into them. The only reasonable way to camber both main lines would then be to "wedge" the two lines treating them as one. I'll have a look at this during the coming week and see what it looks like. If it's going to mess things up - and a "transition camber" will also be necessary, then I don't think I'll bother.

 

It's another illustration of good ideas that need thinking through. If I only had the twin mainline as curve only, I'd certainly do it.

 

Jeff

[The Stationmaster]

I've realised that things aren't going to be quite as simple as they might have been. The curves at both ends of the layout have turnouts built into them. The only reasonable way to camber both main lines would then be to "wedge" the two lines treating them as one. I'll have a look at this during the coming week and see what it looks like. If it's going to mess things up - and a "transition camber" will also be necessary, then I don't think I'll bother.

Jeff

 

Lesson from real railways Jeff - be very careful - very, very careful - when you have pointwork anywhere near canted track or in a transition. On the Western at one time our Chief Civil Engineer (who I think was something like the 8th or 9th person to hold that post since Brunel) would not tolerate pointwork in transition or on cant anywhere on the Region where speeds were high and preferably not anywhere at all because it was near impossible to maintain and could cause derailments.

[Physicsman]

Lesson from real railways Jeff - be very careful - very, very careful - when you have pointwork anywhere near canted track or in a transition. On the Western at one time our Chief Civil Engineer (who I think was something like the 8th or 9th person to hold that post since Brunel) would not tolerate pointwork in transition or on cant anywhere on the Region where speeds were high and preferably not anywhere at all because it was near impossible to maintain and could cause derailments.

 

Mike, that's just what I wanted to hear. Any prototypical justification for or against an issue is news to my ears. Given that I'm likely to "re-install" the trailing point at the viaduct end, on the curve, I think canting would be tricky, and potentially be a problem-causer.

 

Thanks for the advice - again.

 

Jeff

[gordon s]

Lesson from real railways Jeff - be very careful - very, very careful - when you have pointwork anywhere near canted track or in a transition. On the Western at one time our Chief Civil Engineer (who I think was something like the 8th or 9th person to hold that post since Brunel) would not tolerate pointwork in transition or on cant anywhere on the Region where speeds were high and preferably not anywhere at all because it was near impossible to maintain and could cause derailments.

 

You've just confirmed exactly what I was thinking, Mike. I was very impressed with the look of Larry's super elevated curves and started to think about the applying something similar to ET, yet kept coming up against pointwork and the thought of super elevated curves including a junction just filled me with fear, so reluctantly gave up on the idea.

 

Glad to know I can justify the logic now....

[Physicsman]

You've just confirmed exactly what I was thinking, Mike. I was very impressed with the look of Larry's super elevated curves and started to think about the applying something similar to ET, yet kept coming up against pointwork and the thought of super elevated curves including a junction just filled me with fear, so reluctantly gave up on the idea.

 

Glad to know I can justify the logic now....

 

I'm glad I'm in such esteemed company, Gordon. I'll keep things simple and we can gang up if anyone complains! Lol.

 

Jeff

[coachmann]

When it comes to camber and points, the study of photos makes for an interesting excercise. Tracks are nowhere near as level as we assume, so while priority was given to mainlines, lesser tracks had to take up the 'slack'. I've spent hours studying the actual junction at Greenfield (it's my screensaver) and there's a lot going on there.

[Physicsman]

When it comes to camber and points, the study of photos makes for an interesting excercise. Tracks are nowhere near as level as we assume, so while priority was given to mainlines, lesser tracks had to take up the 'slack'. I've spent hours studying the actual junction at Greenfield (it's my screensaver) and there's a lot going on there.

 

I think you've done an amazing job on Greenfield, Larry. You've clearly approached the project "properly" and the care and attention shows. I'm just a plodder when it comes to tracklaying - and, maybe, a bit more cautious!

 

Jeff

[sjp23480]

. I'm aware of the haulage capacity of the G2A; not sure if it's a relevant loco on the S&C. Anybody wish to comment?

 

Jeff,

 

I can confirm that there has been a picture published of a G2 on the S&C in BR days. I will try to research it but I do recall it was pictured in Dent station.

 

Steve

[Physicsman]

Jeff,

 

I can confirm that there has been a picture published of a G2 on the S&C in BR days. I will try to research it but I do recall it was pictured in Dent station.

 

Steve

 

That's very good news Steve - it gives me an excuse to acquire one of the Bachmann locos in the future. Thanks for the info.

 

Jeff

[Mythocentric]

Morning Bill. I'll add a couple more 9Fs to my fleet once I get sorted. I also need a couple more Britannias. Saw 70000 at Grosmont in May - what a superb machine. I'm aware of the haulage capacity of the G2A; not sure if it's a relevant loco on the S&C. Anybody wish to comment?

 

The longest road in the fiddle yard is around 2.7 metres, so I ought to get a loco and around 25 wagons in there. Adequate, I think.

 

As for the static grass, what kind of applicator do you use? Have you got a Grass Master or are you using the humble puffer bottle? I've always built my grass areas from layers of flock, so a few fibres will certainly enhance the result. Another place to experiment in the future.

 

Jeff

 

2.7 metres? Hmmm! That is a train worthy of the S&C. Question is, are you going to use RTR hoppers if the Long Meg appears or will you be batch building kits? As for G2's, its surprising how often you see them lurking in places where you'd least expect them. I really hope Steve finds the visitor to the S&C because that would be a rare sighting indeed!

 

I do indeed use a Grassmaster but be warned! If you get one you will become a very popular person (even more so than now). At the moment mine is somewhere in the vicinity of Colne (I hope!) doing the business on a friends layout which is about its fifth loan. Expensive, but well worth it for the amount of scenic work you have in store especially with the result you get. Before that I used a home made tea-strainer whatsit which gave pretty a good outcome but could result in some quite interesting hairstyles if I forgot to earth it properly!

[Physicsman]

Morning Bill.

 

I can't see myself building kits - at the moment - due to time pressures. However, who knows what will happen? I vehemently opposed the idea of building my own turnouts, but have been persuaded to have a go on the next layout. I've got a large stock of open wagons and tankers, but haven't got any hoppers of the era. So Mr Bachmann may get an order for 10...or 20!!

 

The advice on the grass is useful. I will get a Grassmaster. As you say, I'm going to have a large area to cover. I'll also need to replenish my flock supplies - I've always found Woodland Scenics Earth blend/Green blended turf to give a good base cover. Which manufacturer do you use for the grass fibres? I've heard the Silflor stuff from International Models is good.

 

Time to get some more work done in the bunker. I'm waiting on another 6 Cobalts and some turnouts being delivered. But there are a few more curves and a couple of points that may get fitted today. A couple of days' break has got me psyched-up again!

 

Will keep an eye out on the G2!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[uax6]

Well I duly went to work yesterday and, before anyone asks, made sure that I was safe, took some photos of track and ballast. Hopefully no-one saw me, as it must have been quite an odd sight!

This is the running rails with only sunday traffic over them (its been damp here all week, hence the orange rust, taken standing on the level crossing pedestrian area)

This is one of the 'new' rails sitting in the four foot, notice the difference in colour compared to the running rail behind (taken from our walkway to the gates)

The two new rails in the 4 foot, notice the rust shade variation (same vantage point as before)

The limited browny rust selection of Humbrol that I had with me sat on the foot of the running rail, the middle tin (matt 186) seems to be pretty close. (again taken from the walkway)

Two of our timber sleepers. Not the colour changes, and the very open graining on the latter (taken from the public level crossing)