Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[gordon s]

Thanks Gordon. I'll be needing some guidance when (notice I didn't say "if"!!) I decide to have a go with the turnouts.

 

I assume I'll need to use Templot? Is it a free download or does it cost? Bearing in mind Martin's been working on it for years, I'd expect he should charge something.

 

Jeff

 

It used to be a paid for product, but now is free to download. I must stress this is only my impression of why that decision was made.

 

Martin works very much on his own and sets very high standards for the support of his product. As the number of users increased so did the need for support and that took him away from product development. He firmly believed in giving very comprehensive answers to queries, but it eventually became impossible to maintain that high standard. Of course many said a manual would solve that problem, but the time taken to write idiot proof manuals invariably means they are out of date by the time they are released and the software is also only half of the equation. Different hardware set ups can also throw up different problems and there just wasn't enough hours in the day to deal with those demands.

 

He eventually came to the decision to make the product free and use the Templot forum to provide answers to questions. In reality 90% of questions are fairly fundamental and as users we've probably come across most issues and can help quickly. Martin still chips in with the odd 10% of questions that are outside the expertise of the users and I'm pleased to say it works well and has helped Martin tremendously. He is now free to develop Templot and I have to say, the product really is the best on the market once you decide to make your own trackwork.

 

I'm quite a luddite when it comes to computers. I grew up with them, but reached my peak 10 years ago, consequently it's not always second nature to me. Trackwork is a very complex and technical product and as such the software has to cover a massive range of possibilities. This means it can appear quite daunting at the beginning and I picked it up and put it down many times in my first year. It was only a chance conversation with Martin that unlocked the key for me and since then I've not looked back. I'm fairly confident now I could get anyone up and running with the basics in an hour or two, certainly sufficient to generate templates for trackwork.

 

There is one major difference though that takes a while to get your head round. As children we had a train set and that came with track that clipped together and was easy to understand. With Templot you lay out a curve to any radius you want and then insert a turnout into that curve, which is how you end up with gentle flowing trackwork, rather than a set of modules that clip together and if not done properly, can end up looking like a dogleg or straight-curve-straight format.

 

I'm not saying that is wrong as I've seen may beautiful layouts using proprietary trackwork. It's just a completely different thought process that can possibly give a smoother result.

[Rowsley17D]

 

There is one major difference though that takes a while to get your head round. As children we had a train set and that came with track that clipped together and was easy to understand. With Templot you lay out a curve to any radius you want and then insert a turnout into that curve, which is how you end up with gentle flowing trackwork, rather than a set of modules that clip together and if not done properly, can end up looking like a dogleg or straight-curve-straight format.

 

I'm not saying that is wrong as I've seen may beautiful layouts using proprietary trackwork. It's just a completely different thought process that can possibly give a smoother result.

 

Gordon, Thanks for the advice about creating the curve first. I was making the turnout first then trying to fit the plain track around it, but now something has started to fall into place. If you could put a "Bluffer's guide to Templot" on the Templot/Handbuilt Track forum there will be may avid readers, I'm sure, Jeff included. Although Templot is free, donations can be made. Sorry to hi-jack your thread Jeff.

[Rowsley17D]

364 ft². Thats a big area. I'm working in a mere 200 ft², so that's impressive!

 

The first 2 yards of today's SMP have been stuck in place, with more to come. Going out for a haircut which kind of breaks up the flow of things. Will post more pics later!

 

Jeff

 

It is large Jeff, but the floor will extend back into the eves so that I can store my railway stuff underneath and no doubt the odd Christmas decoration. The actual area of the layout/operating space is just over 300 sq ft. Looking forward to the pic as usual.

[Physicsman]

Interesting comments on the Templot method. Just the same as fitting the track down for the ready-made turnouts. Draw the curve including the turnout(s) (in this case, about 54" radius), fix turnouts in place, join-up with plain track accordingly. I've got this situation at the moment - between the viaduct and fiddle yard. 3 curved turnouts, fanning to link into roads 1 to 4. All will become clearer when I get to fit them (tomorrow) and photos appear.

 

Currently laying straight track - waiting for PVA to dry, so in these temperatures it means a break of a few hours.

 

You're not hijacking the thread, Jonathan. It's all relevant and here is as good a place as any to discuss it!

 

Jeff

Edited November 21, 2012 by Physicsman

[coachmann]

Currently laying straight track - waiting for PVA to dry, so in these temperatures it means a break of a few hours.

Jeff

It's a nuisance this taking a break for several hours on short days......One reason why I am running behind schedule!

[peach james]

Cor- here I was thinking I have it best of all. Long Marton extends for 3x36 along a wall, then 2x20 and 3x24 or so- giving a surface area of about 200 sq ft of layout. (not including the connecting trackage, which is for the most part, 6" wide boards on the edges of rooms...it contributes a huge amount to the operational experience, but not a lot to the surface area. The lego is a much larger surface area than LM, at about 345 sq ft of surface. There's also the "reserved" area which I have to be able to clear- that's 24x8ft, where the club layout can be set out.

 

(one of the advantages to being in Canada vs being in the UK- huge basement area)

 

James

[Physicsman]

Update: A few photos...

 

First 2 show the situation an hour ago. The curved turnouts at the top are positioned correctly, but awaiting Cobalts to fit them in place...

 

 

 

The next 2 show the situation 5 minutes ago... wow! another piece of track has been added!

 

 

 

The Cobalts should arrive tomorrow, so roads 1 - 4 should be completed by early Friday at the latest.

 

Jeff.

[MichaelW]

I'm feeling a little left behind here... Let's see, I'm working on one 6sqft layout, and another about 9sq ft. Hmmm...

 

Using templot is very different to playing with other layout programs. It requires quite a mind shift to realise you're no longer fitting available track to your plan, but laying out your plan and creating the track as you do so. It is really worth it when you get the resultant flowing lines though.

[coachmann]

The advantage of using Marcway points instead of Pewco in the fiddle yard is obvious from those pictures Jeff.......The closer track centres. I found this when rearranging my goods yard, which is why Code 83 points with the same geometry as Marcway 72" radius points were used.

Edited November 21, 2012 by coachmann

[Physicsman]

I'm feeling a little left behind here... Let's see, I'm working on one 6sqft layout, and another about 9sq ft. Hmmm...

 

Using templot is very different to playing with other layout programs. It requires quite a mind shift to realise you're no longer fitting available track to your plan, but laying out your plan and creating the track as you do so. It is really worth it when you get the resultant flowing lines though.

 

Like many other things on this project, michael, Templot is another thing I'm likely to become acquainted with. Like scratchbuilding, viaducts, slow-motion point motors, soldering my own turnouts, winning the lottery... Umm. Where did that come from? I wish!

 

Unlike certain areas of life, small is often better. I don't think I'd want to build anything bigger than KL, and the next project is likely to be about 9' x 1'. It'll probably end up running concurrently with KL. Once I get an idea I can't wait to get started!!

 

Michael - you have a layout, Leeds South. Are you a Yorkshireman?

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

The advantage of using Marcway points instead of Pewco in the fiddle yard is obvious from those pictures Jeff.......The closer track centres. I found this when rearranging my goods yard, which is why Code 83 points with the same geometry as Marcway 72" radius points were used.

 

Was Puke-o, sorry Pooco, sorry Pewco... a typo, Larry?

 

The main lines are at 40mm in the FY due to the tight corner, discussed earlier. But the yard roads, using 60" Marcway are about 24mm apart. Looks quite neat, I think!

 

Jeff

Edited November 21, 2012 by Physicsman

[uax6]

Jeff,

 

Have you got that door fitted yet? If you did your tracklaying would speed up considerably, and you'll have more money to spend on the layout (as opposed to wasting that heat). I'd even fit a bit of celotex to the other side of the door to keep a bit more heat in!

 

That last batch of scans takes the number that have been named upto 500, the scanning folder has another 600 in it, with about 10 mags left to do (and then I've got tochase my mate to hunt out the ones I've not had yet).

 

There is one article on the variations of 9F's and there are more MR signals and waiting rooms etc.

 

Did you like Larrys article from 1968?

 

Is your fiddleyard big enough? You don't seem to have many roads, so where are all your different trains going to live? Are you going to have lifting cassette storage?

 

Andy G

[Physicsman]

Hi Andy. The fiddle yard will hold enough for a good running session. I'll probably leave some rolling stock in there but most of the freight, and all the locos will live in the house. I've got 6 roads, 3 to either side of the main, upto 2.5 metres, so it'll do. I'm severely constrained by the hillside that has to fit in front and over the top of the FY. Without that I could have about 14 roads.

 

Did you read my earlier post - thanks for the scans. Yes, Larry's article from the mid 60s. As I said, I found the Hellifield stuff of great interest. Any 9F material would be good.

 

Temperature in the last couple of days has been up to 16C in the bunker, so my temporary door is doing a decent job! I'm not being held up by PVA today, but by my lack of point motors. Due tomorrow, I hope!

 

Jeff

[gordon s]

Looking good, Jeff but then I wouldn't expect anything else....

 

Fishplates? Are you using them? I'll tell you why I ask. When I used to buy SMP track from SMP, I found their fishplates were very good. They seem to be made from some form of steel as you cannot solder them and then have a rolled design which works very well. When Marcway took on the SMP range of products they didn't take the fishplates as they had their own. To my mind, they are not as good, so I still buy the originals.

 

You can get them from Craftsman Models..Part number SFP1 and their website is www.craftsmanmodels.co.uk and phone number is 01926 428530.

[Mythocentric]

Bill, the layout name - Theakestone - wouldn't have anything to do with a certain brand of very tasty real ale, would it?! I remember drinking tons of "Old Peculiar" when I lived in Oxford, many years ago...

 

You did well to get the 8F. Was it the last, weathered version? They don't seem to be stocked by the major online "box-shifters". I would very highly recommend you get a Bachmann 9F. It's one of their best models, a beautiful runner with massive pulling power. I fully expect to have a 9F with 30-40 wagons trundling through KL (stock limited by fiddle yard road length!!).

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff

 

The name does indeed come from that famous (notorious?) brew. It came about after a mention by Dave Shakespeare (Tetleys) when he was discussing the origins of Tetley Mills and the name of his new layout (Upper Batley). I’m trying to model a small L&Y branch terminus in West Yorkshire and, as they say, if the cap fits! Ah! Gimme a pint of that Old Peculiar. Food of the Gods!

 

The 8F is the weathered version so it will mean resorting to the airbrush to put things right, but I usually do that anyway. I never saw a clean steamer in real life so mine won’t be either. Something about fidelity to the real world I think!

Happy to see that the ‘box shifters’ don’t have it all their own way yet. I do like to support the smaller shops when I can for the simple reason that they can turn up the occasional treasure. The Stanier 2-6-4T is a case in point. I’ve been after one for ages. Checks online produced two suppliers who both had 1 each in stock both of which I lost out on! The 9F (I just know I’m going to buy it) I suspect will come under Rule 1. (Small L&Y branch!) They did frequently see visits from 8F’s in later years, i.e. Rishworth and Holmfirth for example, and as I already have a MetroVic!!!!

 

Jason (and Jeff)

 

I don’t have a layout thread for the simple reason that I’m not doing anything that you guys are’nt already doing apart from the one on prototype colour references (which I haven’t updated for ages!) Most of my time is taken up with my art work, so for the foreseeable future the layout is very much a whenever I have a minute project. Not really conducive to keeping you guys entertained. Mind you, you might have been amused (amazed) by the naughty language after I painted a retaining wall Matt Ochre (Humbrol 83) which dried a bright shiny olive green!

 

Sorry for the high-jack Jeff. Back to the Glorious S&C!

[Physicsman]

Hi Gordon. I actually bought a batch of the Marcway fishplates - conducting and IRJs. I'm only using them to link track sections mechanically, not as conducting links. Have to say it can get a bit tedious soldering 2 sets of droppers onto each yard length of SMP, but if it keeps the signal strong, then fair enough!

 

Thanks for the info on the "original" fishplates. Another example of why people make progress if they use this site!

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Bill, like I said to Jonathan this morning, no-hijack issues here. Do I get the impression that some "thread owners" on the forum are very fussy about posters digressing off the main theme? Well I'm not - I couldn't give a monkeys. If it's interesting, let's hear it!!!!!

 

Talking of colourful language... I solder 2 sets of droppers onto each long length of track. Some of the track is on board sitting on a riser - so I have to make sure not to solder directly over them. Today - TWICE!!!!! - I fitted droppers right on top of the risers. Yes, it was easy to un-solder, but the risers are only 4cm wide, the track is 90cm long. I'm not paying enough attention! The air warmed up with a few expletives, the spider in the corner ran for cover and yes, Bill, I could have done with some Old Peculiar to calm me down!!

 

Go and buy at least one 9F. I've got 3 and I'll buy at least a couple more. Along with Black 5s they are brilliant models and locos. Btw, weathering. I like weathered locos, but it's one area I'm still reluctant to have a go at. I need to get an airbrush and try a few things on some old wagons.

 

Jeff

Edited November 21, 2012 by Physicsman

[uax6]

Jeff,

 

Are you soldering the droppers to the underside of the rail (so that they will be invisible)?

 

When I get to have a layout, I'm going to solder to the underside of the rail using the earth wire out of some twin and earth. This will allow cho-blocks to be fitted to them or a soldiered joint to be done, and allows getting them in and out of the holes easier!

 

BTW there are quite a few article on train formations and PO wagons (tanks in particular) if you want them?

 

Now heres a contentious question: Why do so few people model the grouping period these days? I must admit that I am reallly enjoying scratchbuilding pre-grouping coaches, and find that the later period of flush sided stock a tad boring (mind you thats infinatley more interesting than the glorified trams that past outside this place. It's only the RHTT (railhead treatment trains) that add a bit of interest, and this year they are using 57's, not the 37's and 20's that they used last year.... )

Andy G

[Physicsman]

No, I solder to the side of the rail, but it tends to disappear from sight once the rails are weathered and the ballast goes in, You can see the little blobs if you look carefully, but the wires are nigh-on invisible.

 

The grouping period may simply be down to the fact that there's more RTR locos and stock available for post-nationalisation onwards, though there's a lot more stuff available now, for all periods, than there was even ten years ago.

 

Btw, I've just posted on Larry's thread. told him about your panelled coach article!!

 

Jeff

[uax6]

So are you saying modellers are getting lazy now? :-}

My magazine mate thinks it could be down to the modelling your youth desire. How I fit into that I don't know, I don't even remember Deltics! (the last run in 82 was on my 4th birthday.)

So why did I choose the HR in early LMS days? Well there is the varity of loco's, and (because I'm like that) the endless verity of coaching stock. The restarant cars alone in the LMS days were of MR, LNWR/WCJS, L&Y, G&SWR, Pullman and LMS standard types. Every train had a mix of most pre-group consituent company in them, and look most ramshackle!

 

Andy G

[Mythocentric]

Back again. Two posts in one day? I’m in danger of becoming prolific! (I had to look that up in the dictionary not being in my usual vocabulary!)

 

Thought I’d let you know you’ve convinced me and a 9F will be added to my stock within 24 hours. Fortunately, Richard at The Train Shop here at the centre of the universe has just had a new delivery.

 

Airbrush! Essential tool and I can very highly recommend the Aztec 470. Unlike most airbrushes the needles are separate units which you change as necessary (saves a fortune on buying different airbrushes for different jobs!). I’ve used them for quite a few years now for everything from modelling to artwork and they do a b****y good job. After all, if they are good enough for Martyn Welch, etc. I bought mine from www.modelexmodelrailways.co.uk as a kit (A4709) which includes 6 tips for enamel and acrylic, four top feed cups and two side feed bottles and cost around £99.95. They are also far easier to clean than a 'standard' airbrush so more time and less hassle! Don’t forget to add in a compressor, preferably with piston, reservoir tank and vapour trap all of which are essential if you don’t want the air supply pogo’ing up and down as you work.

 

In reply to uax6's post, I don't think it's as much modellers getting lazy as much as being spoilt for choice plus a very limited amount of leisure time in todays world. Your mate has a valid point. I model the early/mid 50's because that's the period I remember most clearly and I've had similar replies from a lot of other people I've asked. I'm lucky enough to have spent the first 20 years of my life in close proximity to steam and it's a time which stays with me as a, sort of, golden age. As I mentioned earlier on here, the sight and sound of a 9F hauling a long rake of anhydrite hoppers up the incline to Sough Tunnel is not one you forget. Happily that period allows me to also include LNWR, L&Y and LNER stock in my modelling. I would love to model an earlier period but I just don't have the time, so your area of expertise is one I can only greatly admire.

There does seem to be a progression though in modelling specific periods. Back in the early 60's Pre and Post-Grouping layouts were the norm, with the LMS being popular. This moved on with the 70's to the Late Grouping/Early BR period coming to the fore. (I'm ignoring that horrible bit in the 70's/80's when every layout was a GWR branchline clone!). I suppose the logical conclusion is that one day we'll see people asking why everyone models the latest nuclear-powered monorail/hover trains rather than those glorious Class 66's/70's/Pendolino's we had back in the golden years!

Regards

 

Bill

 

Edit: Aztec. Usual disclaimer. They are just that good!

Edited November 21, 2012 by Mythocentric

[coachmann]

I don't think it's as much modellers getting lazy as much as being spoilt for choice plus a very limited amount of leisure time in todays world.

Not sure I understand this without knowing the weekly hours people work these days. When I worked in the 1950s and 60s the week was 5½ days, that being Monday to Friday plus Saturday morning. On the buses it was different due to earlies, lates and split-shifts, plus weekends were working days but at extra pay. In many jobs overtime was essential to pay for the little extras and as there are still only 24 hours in a day I don't think we necessarily had more leasure time than todays workers. Money being tight, I could not have considered building Greenfield in the 1960s. Edited November 21, 2012 by coachmann

[Physicsman]

Thanks Bill. At some stage next year - when I've got all the basics sorted - I will definitely invest in an airbrush. And it sounds like your recommendation is a strong one. So I'll get back to you about this - and you can tell me which compressors etc I need to buy. I'd love to have a go - can't see myself weathering expensive, pristine locos, but rolling stock is fine.

 

I'm old enough to remember travelling in Mk 1 carriages hauled by steam. But the memories are vague. I'm discovering new facts and facets of the hobby everyday. Until last week I hadn't realised the importance of the Fowler 4F in Midland haulage - until you and Jason set me straight.

 

Time for an early night - in the bunker at 6am tomorrow to start getting those curved turnouts ready for fitting. Trouble is, UPS won't deliver the Cobalts 'til 4pm (their usual time here).

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Mythocentric]

Not sure I understand this without knowing the weekly hours people work these days. When I worked in the 1950s and 60s the week was 5½ days, that being Monday to Friday plus Saturday morning. On the buses it was different due to earlies, lates and split-shifts, plus weekends were working days but at extra pay. In many jobs overtime was essential to pay for the little extras and as there are still only 24 hours in a day I don't think we necessarily had more leasure time than todays workers. Money being tight, I could not have considered building Greenfield in the 1960s.

 

Given the spiralling cost of life today it is generally true that overtime working is widespread as more people try to make ends meet. On reflection, perhaps that is largely self-inflicted which also applies to leisure time. There are so many distractions today it can be difficult to remain focussed on one thing. This is probably where railway modellers differ from the majority. We do have a pastime which can become all-absorbing and enable us to undertake projects which others would'nt even consider. For myself as an artist my workday (if it can be called that) starts when inspiration strikes or when I recieve a commission. (My record so far is starting at around 5pm one day and finishing at 10pm the following day). Not the usual routine you'd agree but it pays the bill's.

[jukebox]

I'm feeling a little left behind here... Let's see, I'm working on one 6sqft layout, and another about 9sq ft. Hmmm...

 

Michael, I'm sure Jeff will agree with me that it doesn't matter how much space one has, our aspirations always seem to need "a little bit more". When I first saw the Outon Road layout layout here on RMWeb, I thought it was a room filler, but it is quite compact: that led me to start to think of my own layout as series of cameos - and that is how I need to approach detailing them, or I risk being overhwelmed. Grass:Fence:Grass Smaller can have its own advantages, too.

 

 

*snip*

 

I'd love to have a go - can't see myself weathering expensive, pristine locos, but rolling stock is fine.

 

*snip*

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

 

LOL! I'm going to save that comment in the archives Jeff: Given your abilities with viaducts, I have no doubt that with a little practice and the right equipment and materials, you will end up not just dipping your toes, but diving headlong into the weathering pool. Shiny black 9F's won't look right on K/L... you'll want lime-scaled, sooted, oily, work stained realism. And there's no reason you won't get there by doing it yourself.

 

Regards

 

Scott