Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[Physicsman]

Cheers James. If showing that helps only one person then it was worthwhile.

 

There are a number of good sites with this kind of thing on, but judging by the number of times people ask about electrofrogs, the info isn't getting through.

 

Nice to be appreciated. Many thanks.

 

Jeff

[Jason T]

I used the paint in, scatter and then hoover up method, although used diluted Copydex rather than PVA as the latter sets everything rock solid and negates the laying of cork/foam underlay to deaden sound. Only difference with Copydex is that if you mess up and try to pull a bit off, it can peel out a whole section (although if you are careful enough when painting, it shouldn't be a problem. Oh, it smells a bit too.

 

 

 

[Physicsman]

Yes, the method is certainly sound. Does Copydex dry clear, Jason?

 

I really like the smaller granulation of "N gauge" ballast. I notice Carrs label it as "Small". Did you only use ash or did you blend with other colours? I've always gone for a lighter grey - which seems a bit daft when you end up griming it up afterwards.

 

Jeff

[BR(W)]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello.

 

Can I thank you for taking the trouble to post the photographs and diagrams. One comment, if I may: the 'B' and 'R' track bus labels on the above diagram are surely transposed?

 

Thanks again,

 

BR(W).

[Mythocentric]

Wow, clear explanation, Jeff.

 

Many have struggled with exactly what you have drawn- I'm OK with it, but many other people look at it like a nightmare of connecting things !.

 

(& while it might not be something _I_ need, I know this thread is being followed by a lot of people who might otherwise not know how to wire electrofrog...)

 

 

 

James

 

A very definite second for that. I'll be using Tortoise/Cobalts this time around having used Solonoid or wire-in-tube previously. Electrickery isn't my strongpoint but this explains it nicely

Thanks Jeff!

 

Regards

 

Bill

[Physicsman]

Hello.

 

Can I thank you for taking the trouble to post the photographs and diagrams. One comment, if I may: the 'B' and 'R' track bus labels on the above diagram are surely transposed?

 

Thanks again,

 

BR(W).

 

WELL SPOTTED SIR! Revised diagram will go on there soon - I KNEW I'd make a mistake somewhere!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Evening Bill. I know slow-motion point motors are more expensive, but they are so worth bothering with. I used Peco PL-10 solenoids on my last layout and they were robust and effective. But as subtle as a brick. I like the Cobalts - for their action and they have 2 internal SPST switches, one of which is being used for the polarity change.

 

As a Physics teacher I hated seeing things in books (and from other teachers) that weren't explained - it's not good enough. Electricity is an alien concept to many and if a "recipe" helps people to achieve success, then if I can provide it, I will.

 

All this stems from Andy Peters' request for more underboard pics. I thought I'd try and explain what the wiring is at the same time.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[coachmann]

I venture to guess that every modeller has an uncluttered side to them........Maybe avoiding constructing buildings, or avoiding painting locos and roling stock and so-on. The un-cluttered side of my character demands two wires to as little as possible and Insulfrog diamonds to continue currect unhindered without switches. But I do admire those who can knit spagetti to operate track, signals, points and panels...

[Physicsman]

I venture to guess that every modeller has an uncluttered side to them........Maybe avoiding constructing buildings, or avoiding painting locos and roling stock and so-on. The un-cluttered side of my character demands two wires to as little as possible and Insulfrog diamonds to continue currect unhindered without switches. But I do admire those who can knit spagetti to operate track, signals, points and panels...

 

Each to their own, Larry. We all do what we feel comfortable with and should call "enough!" if anybody tries to push us into something we don't want to do. I'm a great believer in being given, and giving, options. One of the best things about RMweb is the number of options provided by watching the expertise of others.

 

Even though I'm a physicist there are things I'm not interested in doing, electrically - at the moment. Essentials have to be prioritised, though one person's essentials might be way beyond someone elses interests!

 

When I look back 10-15 years I was so blinkered - and knew next to nothing. As long as we can enjoy trying new things, that's great. You have your areas of expertise, so if 2 wires is good enough for you, that's brill!

 

Jeff

[Andrew P]

It's a nice habit to have, but the key word was "consider" ... I pick a new loco each day - but they never get ordered! Shame.

 

Jeff

Spooky that I have another friend also called JEFF who is the same, says to me I like that and I will need one but you know me I will think about it,

and so he does for a year or so, ahahahahhah

 

Good job were not al like that, Hattons would have gone bust YEARS AGO, hahahhahah

 

Andy.

[Andrew P]

Ok Andy - as requested, more underboard photos...

 

The first shows groups of droppers from straight track in the fiddle yard, arranged into groups and fixed to terminal block. The terminal block will be wired to the track bus, bus connections being soldered (as you'll see in a few weeks when I get there)...

 

Each dropper is coded and the droppers in each block are listed next to the block itself.

 

 

The next 2 photos are a direct comparison from Thursday to today - before and after the "tidy up"...

 

 

The last photo shows the droppers from a turnout wired into the Cobalt. Stock rail and Blade rail droppers are joined together (so "bonding" these, taking away the reliance of blade contact for electrical continuity) into terminal block, black and red along with the Frog connection. These are then connected into inputs 2 (Black), 3 (Red), 4 (Green, frog, COMMON) on the Cobalt.

Connections 2 and 3 may have to be reversed once the system is tested to ensure correct Frog polarity.

 

 

Hope this is of interest.

 

Jeff

 

Edit: Pretty obvious: The terminal block with red, black and green will have to be connected, via yet more droppers, to the track bus (Red and Black only!!).

 

EDIT 2: For those who are wondering - "where's the point motor power inputs", well these haven't been fitted yet. These go to Cobalt inputs 1 and 8, powered by a DC supply at about 9V, and linked to the control panel.

 

If you look back about 20 pages (!!!!!), you'll see that I use Blue and Yellow wire for these.

 

I will post a plan of the overall wiring shortly - when I've drawn it!

Great pics Jeff, Thanks and this will now help when I need to do a major layout, this has helped to make sense of all the droppers you kept on about.

 

Cheers Andy.

[Andrew P]

Can I apologise in advance if anyone finds the information below "insulting". I know from experience that some people find it difficult to sort out the basic electrofrog wiring. So the first diagram shows the idea. Please check the connections onto a Tortoise: the connections on the diagram are correct for Cobalts.

 

 

To make some sense of the last photo in post 2148, here's a relevant diagram. The pic in 2148 doesn't have the yellow/blue DC connections yet, nor the connections down to the track bus.

 

 

Hope this helps somebody!

 

Jeff

Wiring track / point / frog (very cruel, wiring up Frogs) is good and makes perfect sense, thanks again.

 

Andy.

[Andrew P]

I didn't spot the upside down wiring bit, I will re look later.

Andy.

[robmcg]

 

...

 

When I look back 10-15 years I was so blinkered - and knew next to nothing. As long as we can enjoy trying new things, that's great. You have your areas of expertise, so if 2 wires is good enough for you, that's brill!

 

Jeff

 

This is a shock. When I was at school my Physics teacher was a very wise (old) man probably of about 50yrs old. Distinguished Anglo-Indian with a very distinctiove and pleasant voice, he was inclined to make an example of me for the class, lambasting me for recording laboratory notes on scraps of paper. Terrible. "I know what's going to happen to you, McGavin! ... first you will go to university. Then there will be girls. Then there will be drugs. And that will be the end of you. Now go and sit down!"

 

I presume you were similar. But now I am older than you, I can affiord to smile. As I drop dilute PVA onto my new track pieces....

 

Rob

[Physicsman]

Andy, hope that helped in some way. I appreciate the humour, as always! And I hope you haven't dropp(er)ed off to sleep looking at the lovely colours on the pics and my wiring diagrams!

 

Please let me know if there are any other pics you'd like taking. Before you know it, your Concorde cockpit will be complete!

 

Btw, George's step-by-step is going to be great. I did ask what wood he was using - is it ply? I like working with wood, so what he's doing is "my kind of thing".

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

This is a shock. When I was at school my Physics teacher was a very wise (old) man probably of about 50yrs old. Distinguished Anglo-Indian with a very distinctiove and pleasant voice, he was inclined to make an example of me for the class, lambasting me for recording laboratory notes on scraps of paper. Terrible. "I know what's going to happen to you, McGavin! ... first you will go to university. Then there will be girls. Then there will be drugs. And that will be the end of you. Now go and sit down!"

 

I presume you were similar. But now I am older than you, I can affiord to smile. As I drop dilute PVA onto my new track pieces....

 

Rob

 

Hi Rob. Re. knowing nothing - I refer to the modelling context. Having said that, I learned a lot more Physics from having to teach the stuff to groups of very sharp, wanting-to-know, students than I ever learned at uni or subsequent research work.

 

Let's put the modelling like this. In 1996 when I returned to the hobby after a 20 year absence, I was using Hornby setrack with Peco foam ballast, no soldering, Trakmat-like layouts and squeaky-clean landscaping. It wasn't that I wanted to do that. It was all I knew and my first glimpse of Dave Shakespeare's "Tetleys Mill" in issue 1 of Model Rail was quite a rude awakening!

 

As for your old teacher. Yes, mine were all "old". Grimly Gallimore, rumoured to have an iron lung, must have been in his mid-40s, but we perceived him as over 80. The way of things, I suppose!

 

Anyway, you turned out ok - despite the girls.... You now have an appreciation of some of the most exquisite mechanical inventions that humans have ever created!

 

Jeff

Edited December 8, 2012 by Physicsman

[Physicsman]

Having trawled through underboard pics taken over the last month, this one best shows the Cobalt connections alluded to in the diagram posts (2148 - 2149).

 

The DC supply is the Yellow lead (input 1) and Blue lead (input EIGHT - sorry, bl**dy stupid face if number 8 typed in!)

 

Black lead (input 2) from Black connections to Turnout Stock Rails and Switch Rail (point blades).

 

Read lead (input 3) from Red connections to Turnout Stock Rails and Switch Rail (point blades).

 

Green lead (input 4 = common on internal SPDT switch of Cobalt) to Turnout Frog.

 

The only connections not in place are those to the Track Bus - not yet fitted.

 

 

Ok, I'm going to shut up about this now - but fitting these blighters is all I've done for the last few days!!

 

Jeff

Edited December 8, 2012 by Physicsman

[Dmudriver]

Ok Andy - as requested, more underboard photos...

 

The first shows groups of droppers from straight track in the fiddle yard, arranged into groups and fixed to terminal block. The terminal block will be wired to the track bus, bus connections being soldered (as you'll see in a few weeks when I get there)...

 

Each dropper is coded and the droppers in each block are listed next to the block itself.

 

 

The next 2 photos are a direct comparison from Thursday to today - before and after the "tidy up"...

 

 

The last photo shows the droppers from a turnout wired into the Cobalt. Stock rail and Blade rail droppers are joined together (so "bonding" these, taking away the reliance of blade contact for electrical continuity) into terminal block, black and red along with the Frog connection. These are then connected into inputs 2 (Black), 3 (Red), 4 (Green, frog, COMMON) on the Cobalt.

Connections 2 and 3 may have to be reversed once the system is tested to ensure correct Frog polarity.

 

 

Hope this is of interest.

 

Jeff

 

Edit: Pretty obvious: The terminal block with red, black and green will have to be connected, via yet more droppers, to the track bus (Red and Black only!!).

 

EDIT 2: For those who are wondering - "where's the point motor power inputs", well these haven't been fitted yet. These go to Cobalt inputs 1 and 8, powered by a DC supply at about 9V, and linked to the control panel.

 

If you look back about 20 pages (!!!!!), you'll see that I use Blue and Yellow wire for these.

 

I will post a plan of the overall wiring shortly - when I've drawn it!

 

HI Jeff

 

I've been following your thread with interest for a while but haven't commented before. You do amaze me with how much modelling you get done when you are also on here! Do you take your laptop (or Blackberry, or whatever!!) under the boards with you??!!

 

I couldn't help but smile when you mentioned reversing feeds to the frogs after checking. I've wired up 11 points on my layout and I think I got 10 of them back to front!! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you! However, I have learned from it and on the Club's layout I now check the polarity with a meter with the point in the "normal" position and I'll do that on my own next time. I say "next time" as I'm replacing a lot of the pointwork and all the Tortoise motors will have to be relocated - only by a couple of inches or so, but enough to be a lot of work.

 

As an aside, do you not find that track that is glued to the cork is noisy? MIne is - it's glued onto 8th inch cork which itself is glued to the 12mm plywood base. On the extension I've nailed the track down onto cork that's not been glued down and it's so much quieter.

 

Rod

[Physicsman]

HI Jeff

 

I've been following your thread with interest for a while but haven't commented before. You do amaze me with how much modelling you get done when you are also on here! Do you take your laptop (or Blackberry, or whatever!!) under the boards with you??!!

 

I couldn't help but smile when you mentioned reversing feeds to the frogs after checking. I've wired up 11 points on my layout and I think I got 10 of them back to front!! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you! However, I have learned from it and on the Club's layout I now check the polarity with a meter with the point in the "normal" position and I'll do that on my own next time. I say "next time" as I'm replacing a lot of the pointwork and all the Tortoise motors will have to be relocated - only by a couple of inches or so, but enough to be a lot of work.

 

As an aside, do you not find that track that is glued to the cork is noisy? MIne is - it's glued onto 8th inch cork which itself is glued to the 12mm plywood base. On the extension I've nailed the track down onto cork that's not been glued down and it's so much quieter.

 

Rod

 

Evening Rod,

 

Your comments made me smile too! I'm expecting a similar ratio to you - it's Sod's Law! Still, it's all a bit of fun!

 

Yep, the glued cork is noisy. I've stuck my 1/8th cork onto 12mm ply - exactly like you... I used evostik. Fortunately the layout's in a converted garage, so the only person being annoyed by the noise is me!

 

In a way - for people like you (who understand the electric side) - I feel like I'm teaching people to suck eggs. But a number of people have contacted me and asked for pics etc, if I have them. I get really annoyed when genuine requests get fobbed off, so the teacher in me can't resist replying!

 

Anyway, thanks for your interest. And no, I don't take the laptop with me.... I just keep checking the thread in all those coffee breaks that Andy P has been joking about!!

 

Oh, btw - your ID - I used to travel in worn-out 108s on the Leeds-Morecambe line when I was at uni. But they've got character - lovely models, too!

 

Best wishes,

 

Jeff

Edited December 8, 2012 by Physicsman

[Jason T]

Yes, the method is certainly sound. Does Copydex dry clear, Jason?

 

I really like the smaller granulation of "N gauge" ballast. I notice Carrs label it as "Small". Did you only use ash or did you blend with other colours? I've always gone for a lighter grey - which seems a bit daft when you end up griming it up afterwards.

 

Jeff

 

Sorry for the late relply Jeff, we've been to The Perch for a meal (a pub I expect you know as it is in your old manor in Oxford). Copydex does indeed dry clear and to tell you the truth, having used it to glue down both the underlay and ballast, I would never use PVA again (both C&L and Martin Wynne of Templot fame recommend it and with good reason). I used Carrs fine ballast (dark grey I seem to recall) on the main running lines and ash ballast on the sidings. Carrs is a weird, spongy material which also helps with keeping that flexibility rather than glueing everything solid; I can depress the track with my finger and it springs back (slowly) into place, which is surely better than being sold as a rock.

[Physicsman]

Sorry for the late relply Jeff, we've been to The Perch for a meal (a pub I expect you know as it is in your old manor in Oxford). Copydex does indeed dry clear and to tell you the truth, having used it to glue down both the underlay and ballast, I would never use PVA again (both C&L and Martin Wynne of Templot fame recommend it and with good reason). I used Carrs fine ballast (dark grey I seem to recall) on the main running lines and ash ballast on the sidings. Carrs is a weird, spongy material which also helps with keeping that flexibility rather than glueing everything solid; I can depress the track with my finger and it springs back (slowly) into place, which is surely better than being sold as a rock.

 

That's very useful info. Jason. I'm going to have to trial the ballasting with some fine-grade ballast and some Copydex. I only ever recall using the adhesive for sealing the edges of a couple of rugs I used to have. Smells a bit - ammonia? Don't care if it does the job.

 

Ballasting's probably 2 months away, but nothing to stop me experimenting in the meantime.

 

Jeff

 

PS I don't recall The Perch. where in Oxford is it?

[Jason T]

Binsey Village, off Botley Road and sort of opposite Port Meadow. It's a French restaurant / pub now and very nice.

 

It is definitely worth experimenting with ballast, etc., as there are a few methods and you have a lot larger area than I did to ballast. As you can see from the photos, I sprayed the track with 'sleeper grime' before ballasting but painted the rails with Precision track colour by hand afterwards, which was a mistake really as it would have been easier to paint it beforehand; doing the rail sides and each chair (yes, really..,..) by hand with a small brush, trying to ensure I didn't get any on the ballast was a pain in the proverbial.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Sandside

[Mythocentric]

Many moons ago, when I was a member of the East Lancs MRC, they laid track and ballasted at the same time by laying a length of SMP on the track plan drawn on the base board using track pins through the sleepers for positioning, cutting the tops off the pins, lifting the track to apply PVA, replacing the track and ballasting each length as they went, weighting it until the glue set. The pins were removed and any holes left disappeared under the paint. I perhaps should have mentioned it quite a few posts back but someone might find it useful. Including me come to think of it!

 

Regards

 

Bemused of Morecambe

[southern42]

Hi all.

Just dropp(er)ed in to say a hello, though it'll probably be a few hours before you see this.

 

Had a good couple of hours at the Porthmadog MRE today yesterday introducing ourselves to some fellow RMwebbers.

 

Some interesting layouts (on top). I didn't venture underneath - maybe next time.

My only purchase today was some GWR red lamps from the Ffestiniog R. shop and watched the Santa Special come in though I didn't see Santa. Maybe I needed to ride the train to do that.

 

 

Best drop(er) out now - need to be up early in the morning to make the Christmas cake.

I may be some time....

[robmcg]

Binsey Village, off Botley Road and sort of opposite Port Meadow. It's a French restaurant / pub now and very nice.

 

It is definitely worth experimenting with ballast, etc., as there are a few methods and you have a lot larger area than I did to ballast. As you can see from the photos, I sprayed the track with 'sleeper grime' before ballasting but painted the rails with Precision track colour by hand afterwards, which was a mistake really as it would have been easier to paint it beforehand; doing the rail sides and each chair (yes, really..,..) by hand with a small brush, trying to ensure I didn't get any on the ballast was a pain in the proverbial.

 

I can heartily agree that there are many ways to lay track and ballast it, whether large lengths or small. After trying many methods I have yet to find any which work reliably in a way which can be described properly, there being just too many variables. Certainly some modellers have mastered it, but not me!

 

In the end, for my several dioramas and one medium-sized layout, I never found anything better than small pinches of ballast, N gauge for preference, and tiny amounts at a time with pre-applied dilute PVA (in my case), and hand painting of rails afterwards. I would never advise my method as being better than others, but it is the only way which has ever worked for me. Adding glue over the top of pre-spread ballast sort of worked in one diorama but is somehow unnatural in the way it lies after the glue has set. I have experimented with drops of detergent and so on, and today tried a new method of spreading N gauge ballast rather heavily over carefully placed white PVA which do not cover the sleeper tops. Result; disaster. The glue somehow acted in a capilliary manner and formed a lumpy surface as it set and after 5 hours when I experimented with letting gravity release the unattached grains of ballast, the remaining surface was terrible.

 

So I just put droplets of PVA around by track without letting any near sleeper tops for attempts 2 and 3 shown here, hand-application of ballast from the finger-thumb tool... the disaster piece no.1 in background hardening for a few days so I can maybe recover some value from it.

 

 

Better than electrical wires? I doubt it!

 

 

 

edit; it's a complete dog's breakfast... the NZ hardwood sleepers appear to absorb the PVA and all the dropped-in PVA ...perfect flat white surfaces do NOT remain flat ... when ballast is added it is drawn all up and over the top edges of the sleepers to form boulders above the edges of the sleepers adhering to a filament of glue... basically something which I cannot describe here but resembles something computer people used to call ERROR VIOLATION NASTY OTHER THINGS I will have to let it all set and chip it all aff. No wonder the first attempt was an unexplained stuff up...

 

Rob (it'll be all fine in the morning .... not... sigh )

Edited December 9, 2012 by robmcg