Bachman to produce Butler Henderson D11/1 for National Railway Museum

[iak]

Great to see the NRM/Bachmann have struck whilst the iron is hot.

The reaction to the D11/2 showed what interest the was in Directors and when you add this to the excitement about the Pom-Pom....

The piccies look very promising; methinks I'd better get some pennies saved.

[MikeParkin65]

 

Are you sure North Staffs No2 has worked? I always thought that it had a totally knackered boiler after some mixup over another NS 0-6-2T getting scrapped.

[MikeParkin65]

Admit I stretched the definition a little here - worked in North Staffs livery (on NCB lines) prior to preservation.

[coachmann]

Aren't people being carried away a little here? A little commercial realism needs to be injected when it comes to saying which NRM locos folk would like to see. I mean how many folk are going to buy 'Aerolite', North Staffs 0-6-2T which had left the LMS in the 1930s, the LSWR 4-4-0 and the NER 4-4-0. If there is indeed a market for such locos, we may as well stop wish-listing manufacturers for the hundreds of classes that ran into the BR period and everyday coaches that folk say they need.

[brushman47544]

Aren't people being carried away a little here? A little commercial realism needs to be injected when it comes to saying which NRM locos folk would like to see.

 

Indeed. From a Southern perspective, the locos I would see as having most sales/revenue potential have already been done by Hornby - BB 34051, V 30925, T9 30120, N15 30777, Q1 33001 and the Terrier. I can't see the NRM taking a financial risk asking Bachmann to produce a competing model for any of these. One possibility might be a Lord Nelson to replace the existing Bachmann model. But is that "old" enough that we modellers would buy an NRM one? I'm not so sure.

[gr.king]

Does anybody know if and when the Scottish Directors ran with self trimming tenders or did they have a "Standard" 4000 Gallon tender but without water pick up gear?

 

E.M. Johnson's second book on Locomotives of the GCR clearly states, with good photographic evidence, that the D11/2s had the self trimming variety but without a water scoop. Pictures concincingly show the shallow step-out of the coping above the wide tank, the raised ends to the straight-topped front coalplate and the large central box on the front bulkhead. I've yet to locate a picture that shows the type of water filler fitted in lieu of the previously usual GCR combined filler hatch / scoop cover. It may have been the ROD type for which drawings already existed, but who knows? As all of the Directors had the newer pattern of wide, high-roofed cab, regardles of whether it had side windows, another little point to note regarding the tenders originally built to go with these locos would be the width of the soleplate at the front of the tender: For those earlier Directors originally paired with older-type, narrow-bodied "non self trimming" tenders, in order to match the width of the rear of the loco the soleplate above the front tedner steps was made a little wider, and the vertical front handrails of the tender were (I believe) set out a little more towards the sides than had been the case on earlier tenders such as those behind the O4s. The upper parts of the backplates for the front steps on the tender may have been vertical too, rather than "sloping under" to match the shape of the loco steps as before.

[Ozexpatriate]

Aren't people being carried away a little here? A little commercial realism needs to be injected when it comes to saying which NRM locos folk would like to see.

Certainly there are 'useful' engines in the NRM collection that would make suitable models for practical layouts.

 

I suspect that there are classes that are restricted by time and/or region that might sell rather better than these 'useful' engines. The Stirling Single, MR Spinner and LNWR Precedent Hardwicke come to mind. These would also represent commercial realism to me. I think they (like City of Truro) would sell.

 

Given that so far, pregrouping 4-4-0s from the west, midlands and the north have been offered, the notion that one from the south might be next, is a compelling argument irrespective of the 'usefulness' of the suggested prototypes. It's all froth anyway.

[Butler Henderson]

One loco no one has mentioned is one that pops up all the time through the periods and can be ran alongside anything ..............................Rocket

[micklner]

Aren't people being carried away a little here? A little commercial realism needs to be injected when it comes to saying which NRM locos folk would like to see. I mean how many folk are going to buy 'Aerolite', North Staffs 0-6-2T which had left the LMS in the 1930s, the LSWR 4-4-0 and the NER 4-4-0. If there is indeed a market for such locos, we may as well stop wish-listing manufacturers for the hundreds of classes that ran into the BR period and everyday coaches that folk say they need.

 

I agree re realism comment in general.

 

However how many people who buy Butler Henderson in Preserved form will be bothered that it is not in BR condition? They will buy it because its Attractive as are virtually all pre grouping Locos liveries or they are collectors .

The same applies to City of Truro and the lastest additions using that loco as a base what have they got to do with BR either ????

Again how many Midland Componds have been rebuilt to BR condition? not many!! as they buy because it looks good etc etc.

 

Aerolite also ran in LNER Livery so thats two options for that one, as abovre for all of the above Locos mentioned.

[The Stationmaster]

Certainly there are 'useful' engines in the NRM collection that would make suitable models for practical layouts.

 

I suspect that there are classes that are restricted by time and/or region that might sell rather better than these 'useful' engines. The Stirling Single, MR Spinner and LNWR Precedent Hardwicke come to mind. These would also represent commercial realism to me. I think they (like City of Truro) would sell.

 

Given that so far, pregrouping 4-4-0s from the west, midlands and the north have been offered, the notion that one from the south might be next, is a compelling argument irrespective of the 'usefulness' of the suggested prototypes. It's all froth anyway.

 

I think the 'what it is' should not be judged so much from the angle of 'completing a set' as the sheer commercial aspect of whatever would be selected. Whatever is chosen will cost the NRM a lot of money to develop so it has to be a commercial success for the Museum and I got the impression (hardly a surprise of course) that there can't really be any sort of deviation from that key aspect of the project. And of course, depending on the deal with Bachmann, whatever is selected has to sell in sufficient volume before Bachmann get their turn with use of the tooling.

 

So you can't just add it 'because it's there in the National Collection' because - as you have said - it has to be commercial, it has to sell, and sell at a good pace so perhaps the poll results might give the NRM as much of a hint of what to go for as any other source.

[Paul Cram]

perhaps the poll results might give the NRM as much of a hint of what to go for as any other source.

 

I doubt it. I for one will not be completing the poll as the sort of locos I am likely to buy fall into the pre group/LNER period. Add to that I model P4 and therfore don't want at least half of the product. I would howver be interested in some of the locos mentioned above. There must be a number of others in a similar position. I do accept that I am in a minority as most seem to model BR onwards.

[Ozexpatriate]

The rapidity of the NRM's program surprised me more than anything. The choice of the D11/1 was certainly not a surprise, but it appeared a good year earlier than I anticipated, coming so soon after the Midland Compound. After the D11/2 was announced, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion, and much like the well kept veil of secrecy around City of Truro, that development is already so far along, is impressive.

 

As to what they will do next, personally, I'm not projecting anything. Presuming this program by the NRM continues to be successful, I see some kind of "race to the North" commemorative as inevitable, though I have no idea when that might be. I think that the Stirling Single and Hardwicke in nice presentation boxes, even including a stipend for the museum, would be attractive to a lot of people.

 

I also still think the LNER dynamometer car could be their biggest seller.

 

My own preference for an NRM item is Lode Star, though I'm not suggesting that I think it will be next. (Were I to do so, I'd be wishlisting.) Frankly Hornby's printing process would do a better lining out job on a Star than Bachmann Branch-Line, though a model from either of them would be very welcome.

 

It's hard to imagine that interest in their lovely Midland compound is exhausted, yet here we have the D11/1 right around the corner. Makes me wonder just how soon the next one will arrive.

 

This is a great program by the NRM. I hope it continues to succeed for them.

[45568]

I think another commercial consideration is the longevity of the prototype, giving a variety of livery options, especially if it lasted to BR days. CoT got in by default, being used on service trains as well as specials, and was certainly seen far and wide. The SECR D ticks most boxes, as some lasted to BR, although the preserved loco. has not been used as far as I know? However, anyone who could resist that full livery has strong willpower.

Given the above guidelines, how about the GER E4 2.4.0.? Beautiful in pre-group blue, cute appearance, and the last surviving 2.4.0. on BR. It would also damp down the "sweedie" voices!

I have a picture of one in Nottingham Vic., in the 1930's with a garden bench strapped to the front footplate carrying the judges of the best kept station award. Given the vagaries of UK climate, a risky task, or did the sun really always shine then?

Cheers,

Peter C.

[D605Eagle]

Given the vagaries of UK climate, a risky task, or did the sun really always shine then?

Cheers,

Peter C.

Non stop, 24 hours a day!

[Horsetan]

...... The SECR D ticks most boxes, as some lasted to BR, although the preserved loco. has not been used as far as I know? ...

 

I can't remember it ever having been steamed in preservation, and perhaps its internal condition may prevent it from ever doing so again.

[coachmann]

Strange. Horsetan's reply at 13.36 is credited to Andy Y in the thread listing.

[Andy Y]

Not sure why/how that happened. The topic was originally posted on Saturday (by me) but I was logged in as Steve Cole on his ipad when I did it. I changed the topic author half an hour or so ago and it's obviously had some effect on a subsequent posting.

[Horsetan]

Strange. Horsetan's reply at 13.36 is credited to Andy Y in the thread listing.

Not sure why/how that happened. The topic was originally posted on Saturday (by me) but I was logged in as Steve Cole on his ipad when I did it. I changed the topic author half an hour or so ago and it's obviously had some effect on a subsequent posting.

 

Andy Y: The Man Of A Thousand Faces?

 

Or is this the first case of RMWeb identity theft?

[t-b-g]

E.M. Johnson's second book on Locomotives of the GCR clearly states, with good photographic evidence, that the D11/2s had the self trimming variety but without a water scoop. Pictures concincingly show the shallow step-out of the coping above the wide tank, the raised ends to the straight-topped front coalplate and the large central box on the front bulkhead. I've yet to locate a picture that shows the type of water filler fitted in lieu of the previously usual GCR combined filler hatch / scoop cover. It may have been the ROD type for which drawings already existed, but who knows? As all of the Directors had the newer pattern of wide, high-roofed cab, regardles of whether it had side windows, another little point to note regarding the tenders originally built to go with these locos would be the width of the soleplate at the front of the tender: For those earlier Directors originally paired with older-type, narrow-bodied "non self trimming" tenders, in order to match the width of the rear of the loco the soleplate above the front tedner steps was made a little wider, and the vertical front handrails of the tender were (I believe) set out a little more towards the sides than had been the case on earlier tenders such as those behind the O4s. The upper parts of the backplates for the front steps on the tender may have been vertical too, rather than "sloping under" to match the shape of the loco steps as before.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! That is a book I don't have (yet - one is coming soon).

 

The one in the display case had the full box arrangement in the tender top rear compartment (the same as a water scoop fitted version) but no water scoop handwheel. I have a recollection of seeing a GCR tender with just a D shaped box at the rear but I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it!

 

GCR tenders can be a bit of a minefield. Standard they weren't!

[coachmann]

GCR tenders can be a bit of a minefield. Standard they weren't!

 

Too true. One very pleasant commision I undertook was the painting and finishing of 17 GCR handbuilt brass locomotives of different classes in GCR and early L&NER liveries. The homogeneous appearance of Robinsons tenders belied a multitude of detail differences and widths.

[Michael Delamar]

"Ex-LNER Robinson Class D11/1 4-4-0 Large Director No. 62662 'Prince of Wales' leaves Bridlington with a return day excursion to Sheffield Victoria on the evening of Whit Monday 18th May 1959"

http://railwayherald.../view/164759/LC

 

 

 

and at Sheffield victoria

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete2.php?id=28734

[t-b-g]

Too true. One very pleasant commision I undertook was the painting and finishing of 17 GCR handbuilt brass locomotives of different classes in GCR and early L&NER liveries. The homogeneous appearance of Robinsons tenders belied a multitude of detail differences and widths.

 

17 GCR locos! My idea of modelling heaven! Do you recall if one of them was a 2-4-2T, finished in early LNER livery ie L.&N.E.R on green but still with GCR style lining and I think (it is hidden away in a box!) the GCR number on the tank side in LNER transfers plus a brass plate? A second hand body for one came my way a while ago and I was told that it had been professionally painted. Very nice it is too.

 

I wonder if Bachmann are going to think about any other locos that ran with the self trimming tender. Any takers for a B3 "Valour"?

[coachmann]

t-g-b, I painted a GCR 2-4-2T in GCR green but with very early L&NER insignia and GCR oval plate for Normal Wisenden Models. Later he complained it wouldnt sell becasue the livery covered a very limited timeframe. I suspect that is the loco you own. I think there was also a 2-4-2T amongst the 17 locos but that would have got GCR full livery.

[Horsetan]

....Any takers for a B3 "Valour"?

 

Bachmann might not produce these, but John Bateson's Great Central Models might do an all-etched kit for it eventually; he seems to be making his way through the Robinson 4-6-0 classes now.

[number9]

I decided to order one of these a few days ago but now discover that whilst payment hasn't been taken, my available credit has been reduced by almost £135 so I've got to work with a reduced credit limit for several months.

 

 

I've several other models pre-ordered at the usual places in the north of England but these companies store the card details until they are about to ship the order.