Historic Midland (American) Pullman Car Destroyed

[Mike Bellamy]

Saw a brief report on the local BBC news last night - one of the American Pullman Cars from 1873 has been totally destroyed in a fire over the weekend - from what I saw it looks like a total loss. Now only two remain - both at Butterley.

 

BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-17509781

 

Local Newspaper http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Police-probe-arsonist-gutted-historic-rail/story-15625542-detail/story.html

[royaloak]

Very sad news, IF this does turn out to be arson can we expect a thorough investigation with the Police throwing every available officer at it, or will the MRC be given a crime number with the file going into the "too difficult/ cant be bothered" pile while the Police go about annoying motorists?

[PaulRhB]

A sad loss but a little unfair comment on the police as the fire destroys most of the evidence. Depending on what other evidence there is left I'm sure the police will look at it but as no lives were at risk it's not going to be their top item.

Considering the efforts we see the police put into tracking down railway crime I thought a little balance was required. They don't have endless manpower and the paperwork mountain even to get a grafitti tagger convicted is ridiculous.

[royaloak]

I suppose it was a little harsh as the main problems are the CPS and courts letting people off when the Police HAVE got everything they need for a conviction.

But then how often do they stop motorists in the wee small hours for no good reason (maybe doing 36mph in a 30 zone at 0400 when going to work) when "nobody died" but there are brownie points for solving a crime (speeding) when the solved crime is irrelevant to everyone except the Police crime figures, and no it wasnt me.

 

Also its nice to know the Police have got enough spare manpower to give me an escort* home some mornings (I have an 18 year old Peugeot 106 and finish at anything up to 2:00 in the morning) and have had several escorts* over the last couple of months.

 

* that would be the Police following me for about 15 miles, not them giving me one of those rather nice cars that used to be made by the Ford Motor Company!

 

I was also stopped by the same copper for a "nothing to worry about, I have stopped you for a routine vehicle check, have you been drinking sir" 3 times in the same week, the last time she stopped me she actually used my name in the opening sentence so she knew who I was.

 

Had cause to call the Police on 6 occasions over the last few years and I am still awaiting a response to 4 of them (all quite serious as I am too old to be bothered with small things).

 

So I dont have a very good opinion of the Police force and it probably came across in my original post.

[PaulRhB]

I was also stopped by the same copper for a "nothing to worry about, I have stopped you for a routine vehicle check, have you been drinking sir" 3 times in the same week, the last time she stopped me she actually used my name in the opening sentence so she knew who I was.

One of the trials of shift work when it's quiet Had my relief stopped within 20 yards of the box once for a breath test!

 

I suppose the problem is a nice big shed costs a ton of money if you have space and then it needs a fire prevention system too or you can have the same trauma as the Mid Hants did when their shed went up in flames with 3 items of stock inside.

[Captain Kernow]

A sad loss but a little unfair comment on the police as the fire destroys most of the evidence. Depending on what other evidence there is left I'm sure the police will look at it but as no lives were at risk it's not going to be their top item.

Considering the efforts we see the police put into tracking down railway crime I thought a little balance was required. They don't have endless manpower and the paperwork mountain even to get a grafitti tagger convicted is ridiculous.

I think this is also fair comment, but I completely sympathise with Royaloak's point of view, which for me simply epitomises the mounting frustration that many of us have that (i) such crimes get committed in the first place, (ii) the culprit is often not found and (iii) even if they are traced, the punishment is often considered insufficient as compared with the loss of an irreplaceable historical artifact that gave pleasure to many law-abiding folk.

 

 

Edit - to control out-of-control smilies!

[Andy Y]

So I dont have a very good opinion of the Police force and it probably came across in my original post.

 

Yes; I think that comes across but I'm afraid none of it is directly relevant to any facts in the topic.

[sixteen 12by 10s]

Getting back on the subject of the fire. The coach as been sitting in the yard at Butterley for as long as I can remember. Like a lot of other things preserved around the country, slowly rotting away, and waiting for a saviour in the form of a big wad of money. I have worked as a volunteer at the Midland Railway Centre for 22 years, and over this time I have known that there was always an option to restore the coach, but sadly now this option has gone

Its not the first arson attack, on a preserved railway, and it wont be the last and this combined with the so called “metal thefts†is probably the most worrying parts of railway preservation.

The authorities have come up with several schemes, to protect the railway, CCTV and private security guard patrols, but these will cost the groups and societies money that they would rather spend on restoration.

 

 

Gary

[Captain Kernow]

The authorities have come up with several schemes, to protect the railway, CCTV and private security guard patrols, but these will cost the groups and societies money that they would rather spend on restoration.

Sadly, like insurance cover perhaps, this will probably have to become a fact of life for heritage operations and museums in areas vulnerable to such activity.

[PaulRhB]

(ii) the culprit is often not found and (iii) even if they are traced, the punishment is often considered insufficient as compared with the loss of an irreplaceable historical artifact that gave pleasure to many law-abiding folk.

Yep I agree with all your points and the Police I know share the frustration as it seems a waste of their time. One wonders if making those convicted actually clear up their own mess in such cases might help rather than giving them a community order to serve cakes in an old folks home!

At least the MRC would then be able to have say three offenders convicted of arson, anywhere in the area, spend two or three days cutting up and clearing up the site rather than volunteers having to waste time doing it too.

[PaulRhB]

Sadly, like insurance cover perhaps, this will probably have to become a fact of life for heritage operations and museums in areas vulnerable to such activity.

Do many preserved railways actually have this sort of item covered? I would think that it would be prohibitively expensive to cover all such stock unless already restored.

[sixteen 12by 10s]

A number of groups that have had damage done or stolen by the metal thefts, have enquired about insurance claims, but the excess is usually too high to make this viable.

 

Gary

[Captain Kernow]

Do many preserved railways actually have this sort of item covered? I would think that it would be prohibitively expensive to cover all such stock unless already restored.

Well, like you, I doubt it, but I'm wondering if it might have to become more commonplace, if crimes like this continue?...

[PaulRhB]

I'm wondering if it might have to become more commonplace, if crimes like this continue?...

I think the insurance companies are likely to price it too far out of reach to make it realistic. I suppose this is why the National collection has to be so hard as it's impossible to safeguard every historic object. The items that are useful or easy to obtain spares for, like Mk1's, are always going to be ahead in the restoration queue unless a wealthy donor chooses a more obscure one.

Locos aren't as prone to the casual vandal but then if they are left out they become subject to metal thieves!

 

While it's good to preserve all these items do any railway centres actually look at all the items they have and classify items by historical importance for protection or is it more biased to the usefullness? I know various lines clear out 'dumped' items from time to time but maybe a more organised national register might exist that could be used to push stock that has historical significance to a new home where it would be useful and therefore a higher priority?

[Captain Kernow]

While it's good to preserve all these items do any railway centres actually look at all the items they have and classify items by historical importance for protection or is it more biased to the usefullness? I know various lines clear out 'dumped' items from time to time but maybe a more organised national register might exist that could be used to push stock that has historical significance to a new home where it would be useful and therefore a higher priority?

Whilst that may invoke wailing and gnashing of teeth in some quarters, this is actually a very good idea. A job for a modernised Railway Clearing House, perhaps, if it still existed!

[Andy Kirkham]

but maybe a more organised national register might exist that could be used to push stock that has historical significance to a new home where it would be useful and therefore a higher priority?

 

A bit like this ? http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/surveystatus.asp

[PaulRhB]

A bit like this ? http://www.vintageca...urveystatus.asp

Yes but adding a bit to actually drive the restoration through. Whether it was worth looking into a national fund that sort of backs up the NRM by collecting funds and then allocating money to restore and protect significant items, which if necessary meant moving them to another railway that could use them and provide a safe place like railways do for current long term loan items from the NRM.

I suppose the Heritage Rly Association would be the logical leader of this. I think as time goes some of the railways that rely more on volunteers than a business case as such start to struggle it would give a lifeline for historic stock that might not be saved by a wealthy benefactor quickly enough.

[coachmann]

We will never stop arsonists but we could perhaps channel their activities towards worthwhile projects...

[PaulRhB]

we could perhaps channel their activities towards worthwhile projects...

Such as firemen on preserved lines?

 

Network Rail's been trialling a project in Scotland where they've got graffiti artists to do NR themed artwork on known troublespots to stop tagging. It's worked to an extent.

[devondynosoar118]

At least there are still 2 left and it was un restored.

Royaloak, perhaps the female officer mentioned has taken a liking to you or else your mates have set you up with a very convincing and incredibly modest stripper on multiple occasions...

[Edwin_m]

Do many preserved railways actually have this sort of item covered?

 

To me there seems to be little point insuring against destruction of an unrestored item which is of historical significance but is not essential to operating the railway. You'd be paying a very high premium (if you had that sort of money you'd probably rather spend it on restoring the item!) and the best you would get would be money towards building a non-authentic replica. There may be an argument for some level of insurance after the item is restored, to pay for repairing more minor damage which didn't compromise its historical nature.

[PenrithBeacon]

In all honesty this news is pretty underwhelming. There have been scrappings of significant items at Butterley, and when that happens no-one bats an eyelid. The chances of the two remaining bodies being restored are next to zero and there is such a shortage of volunteers and cash at the centre that all of the items there are under threat; not from arsonists but from the centre itself.

 

There are three railway preservation centres in Derbyshire, all dedicated to the Midland, and much too close to each other to generate a good income and attract enough volunteers to be able to make a go of any of the three.

 

Sorry if this offends

[Tin Turtle]

As a couple of posters have mentioned, there is no end of extremely old and rare stock at Butterley and Swanwick just rotting away outside with no likely hope of restoration. I've had a few visits to the site recently, and the site obviously has the potential to be a very, very good railway centre, but at worst it looks like a scrapyard or dumping ground with a random assortment of buildings

[simonhaynes72]

I suppose this highlights that lottery and other funding bids should focus upon more covered storage to protect assets.

The issue of arson and maybe scrap theft would somewhat be reduced, and the notion of 'heritage' status, like or loathe the term, would be enhanced.

Just like Bodmin and Wenford's relatively recently completed stock shed at Bodmin Road.

Cheers,

Simon

[Edwin_m]

Butterley probably has more covered accommodation already that most other heritage sites of its size. I guess there is always the problem of too much stuff and nowhere to keep it, due to the best intentions of trying to preserve as much as possible. The alternative would be for some historic item to go for scrap by default, if nobody could accept it unless they had somewhere to store it under cover.