Modelling Spam Cans (Bulleid Pacifics)

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Cofga said:

 

What were these weather covers made of? Were they rubberized canvas or just plain canvas? Finally were the sides convex as in your example or straight? Thanks

I have no definite idea. I just tried to get as good a reproduction as I could of what is (occasionally) visible in photographs. Two of my own added. My guess is it was/is canvas (rubberised or not) with something resembling umbrella ribs sewn in to maintain its shape.

 

The material I used on the model is made up of two thin layers, and I think the curved edge reflects one or both shrinking unevenly with age. It wasn't like it when first done, so I should really renew it or stiffen the edges somehow. 

 

Obviously, if the stuff is used for its intended purpose, you want it to curve in all directions! 

 

John

 

Photos added; but bear in mind these are "as preserved".

 

A very crumpled example on Clan Line and a rather neater one on Braunton. I have other pictures of both locos running with no sheet fitted!

 

To what extent, if any, these (or their absence) might resemble in-service reality "back in the day" should be treated with caution.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Dunsignalling
Photos added

[Cofga]

I am looking for approximate timeing on a couple of detail changes. First. when would the smoke deflectors have been extended from the short as-built version to the long or standard length versions? Second it is my understanding that the safety values were originally a cluster of 3 located in front of the whistle and that they were changed to 2 located to the rear of the whistle. Further I think these safety valve changes were made when the boiler pressure was reduced from 280 to 250 psi, correct? Are there any spreadsheets or webpages that list these dates owr even approximations? Thanks

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, Cofga said:

I am looking for approximate timeing on a couple of detail changes. First. when would the smoke deflectors have been extended from the short as-built version to the long or standard length versions? Second it is my understanding that the safety values were originally a cluster of 3 located in front of the whistle and that they were changed to 2 located to the rear of the whistle. Further I think these safety valve changes were made when the boiler pressure was reduced from 280 to 250 psi, correct? Are there any spreadsheets or webpages that list these dates owr even approximations? Thanks

You need "The Book of the West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics" and the corresponding volume on the Merchant Navy class, both by Richard Derry, which detail when most changes were applied. The pace was such, though that some minor items simply didn't find their way into the works records they are based on.

 

The change to the "standard" length deflectors spanned a fair period, but would have been largely complete by 1950/1 (later locos never having had the short ones).

 

The extra-long sort were fitted  to just three WC locos 34004-6 and (AFAIK) only one MN, 35020, in connection with the interchange trials of 1948. They were retained until rebuilding by those that were, and until withdrawal on the one that never was, 34006 'Bude' That's about as easy as any of this gets!

 

If you are modelling MNs in the 1940s (and possibly just into the 50s), be even more careful as there seem to have been intermediate types tried out between the early and eventual standard pattern.

 

The chronology of boiler pressure/safety valve alterations is even harder to track, and extended over the better part of a decade. There is no obvious pattern (age, mileage etc) to indicate a planned schedule, or at least not one that lasted long. That suggests it happened when other boiler work became necessary. A few boilers may even have retained the original specification until their locos came to be rebuilt! There are extra opportunities for modelling anachronisms in that boiler swaps occurred during overhauls, in which a few locos lost modified boilers and regained the earlier pattern, only to have those "done" later! Again, Mr Derry will be the saviour of your sanity, as he has for mine!

 

As with most aspects of these locos, you therefore really need to be chasing the service records of specific engines you wish to model. It rather gets out of hand if you try to duplicate what Mr Derry took a number of year to compile!

 

On the up-side, Hornby generally seem to get it right (insofar as it can be) in terms of loco/valves/tender emblem, but that won't help if you are re-naming and may not if you have chosen an especially precise modelling period!  

 

John.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Dunsignalling
Correction of numbers

[Cofga]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

You need "The Book of the West Country and Battle of Britain Pacifics" and the corresponding volume on the Merchant Navy class, both by Richard Derry, which detail when most changes were applied. The pace was such, though that some minor items simply didn't find their way into the works records they are based on.

 

The change to the "standard" length deflectors spanned a fair period, but would have been largely complete by 1950/1 (later locos never having had the short ones).

 

The extra-long sort were fitted  to just three WC locos 34004-7 and (AFAIK) only one MN, 35020, in connection with the interchange trials of 1948. They were retained until rebuilding by those that were, and until withdrawal the one that never was, 34006 'Bude' That's about as easy as any of this gets!

 

If you are modelling MNs in the 1940s (and possibly just into the 50s), be even more careful as there seem to have been intermediate types tried out between the early and eventual standard pattern.

 

The chronology of boiler pressure/safety valve alterations is even harder to track, and extended over the better part of a decade. There is no obvious pattern (age, mileage etc) to indicate a planned schedule, or at least not one that lasted long. That suggests it happened when other boiler work became necessary. A few boilers may even have retained the original specification until their locos came to be rebuilt! There are extra opportunities for modelling anachronisms in that boiler swaps occurred during overhauls, in which a few locos lost modified boilers and regained the earlier pattern, only to have those "done" later! Again, Mr Derry will be the saviour of your sanity, as has has for mine!

 

As with most aspects of these locos, you therefore really need to be chasing the service records of specific engines you wish to model. It rather gets out of hand if you try to duplicate what Mr Derry took a number of year to compile!

 

On the up-side, Hornby generally seem to get it right (insofar as it can be) in terms of loco/valves/tender emblem, but that won't help if you are re-naming and may not if you have chosen an especially precise modelling period!  

 

John.

 

 

Oh bother, I was afraid of that. I guess I’ll just consult the books and find a photo of the loco I want to model and make what changes I can plainly see, the valves and deflectors being most obvious. 

[brightspark]

I do hope that the photos can be recovered.

Meanwhile here is 35012 United States Lines in her 1960 condition.

 

 

[Cofga]

Well it appears that the main driver gear on my Torrington WCC pacific has split creating jumpy action when it does run and just spinning at other times. I checked Peters Spares and they are out of stock. Who else would be a possible source of Hornby spares? Also does any sell just the gear or the center driver, Peters Spares only stocks the full set of 3 replacement drivers. Thanks

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, Cofga said:

Well it appears that the main driver gear on my Torrington WCC pacific has split creating jumpy action when it does run and just spinning at other times. I checked Peters Spares and they are out of stock. Who else would be a possible source of Hornby spares? Also does any sell just the gear or the center driver, Peters Spares only stocks the full set of 3 replacement drivers. Thanks

I can't remember which, but one of the gears in the replacement gear set (if available) is the same as that on the driven axle. 

 

It obviously requires that wheelset to be re-quartered on reassembly but, so long as you are OK with doing that, its much cheaper than a complete wheelset. 

 

The only one I've had to do was a good while ago (it's usually one of the other gears that splits, in my experience), but the quartering was reasonably easy to do because the wheels fit onto splined axles and if you get it nearly right visually, moving the wheel round by one spline should get it spot-on.

 

Make sure you keep the wheelset the same way round that it comes out, though, and replace any washers in the original order.

 

Good luck

 

John

 

 

[Cofga]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I can't remember which, but one of the gears in the replacement gear set (if available) is the same as that on the driven axle. 

 

It obviously requires that wheelset to be re-quartered on reassembly but, so long as you are OK with doing that, its much cheaper than a complete wheelset. 

 

The only one I've had to do was a good while ago (it's usually one of the other gears that splits, in my experience), but the quartering was reasonably easy to do because the wheels fit onto splined axles and if you get it nearly right visually, moving the wheel round by one spline should get it spot-on.

 

Make sure you keep the wheelset the same way round that it comes out, though, and replace any washers in the original order.

 

Good luck

 

John

 

 

Thanks, I’ve done this kind of thing before. I have found that if you scribe a line across the wheel/axle end you can easily get them back into perfect alignment when reassembling them. A light sanding of the axle end will then remove the scribed line. Actually the replacement set of drivers is only about £8 if and when they get them back in  stock again so may be an easier option than replacing a gear. I just need to find someone who has them in stock—is Peters Spares the only parts dealer in the UK? Of course shipping to NA may be double the cost of the drivers!

Edited May 4, 2022 by Cofga

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, Cofga said:

Thanks, I’ve done this kind of thing before. I have found that if you scribe a line across the wheel/axle end you can easily get them back into perfect alignment when reassembling them. A light sanding of the axle end will then remove the scribed line. Actually the replacement set of drivers is only about £8 if and when they get them back in  stock again so may be an easier option than replacing a gear. I just need to find someone who has them in stock—is Peters Spares the only parts dealer in the UK? Of course shipping to NA may be double the cost of the drivers!

 

I've never seen individual axles for sale. Try "Lendons of Cardiff" in Google. They are usually cheaper than Peter's, but may take a little while longer. Also "AC Models of Eastleigh" migght be an option.

 

John.

[Cofga]

On 04/05/2022 at 12:21, John Tomlinson said:

 

I've never seen individual axles for sale. Try "Lendons of Cardiff" in Google. They are usually cheaper than Peter's, but may take a little while longer. Also "AC Models of Eastleigh" migght be an option.

 

John.

Thanks for the Lendons tip, but it appears no one in the UK has the replacements. I find it hard to believe that no one has a simple replacement gear for these. I bet an RC model shop has drawers full of similar gears so maybe a trip there will turn one up. At any rate I pulled the driver out today and the gear is not split but it has stripped on the inside where it contacts the axle splines so just spins. I will clean it up and try the superglue fix but am not hopeful as it is a very thin gear and not much contact surface area for a reliable bond. I’ll let you know in a few hours how it comes out.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Cofga

[Cofga]

Didn’t work, still jerks once per revolution so there must be a gear tooth missing. I’ll have to check both the drive and idler gears to see what is amiss. This may just end up as a spare parts loco.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Cofga said:

Didn’t work, still jerks once per revolution so there must be a gear tooth missing. I’ll have to check both the drive and idler gears to see what is amiss. This may just end up as a spare parts loco.

Sounds like you may need to replace the whole gear train. 

[Cofga]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Sounds like you may need to replace the whole gear train. 

My entertainment for the afternoon was to diagnose the problem by swapping the center driver from a loco that works great with the model giving me fits. As expected the problem followed the driver, so it is not a gear train issue just a bad gear on the driver. Looking closely it appears there is a small crack running from the axle outwards and exiting between two of the teeth. This creates a big enough gap between those teeth to allow the idler gear to skip and it happens once per revolution since that is where the crack is. So it is just going to sit on a shelf until Hornby imports a replacement gear or axle set. 

 

The positive side is I now know how to tear down and reassemble the entire driver assembly and associated parts. More fun than I bargained for when I bought this one. The lesson learned is only buy pre-owned locos from a dealer like Rails of Sheffield who now only sell pre-owned equipment on their website in “like new” condition. The rest apparently is relegated to their eBay store. At least the dealer I bought from refunded me £20 to cover my costs for a new driver set and Royal Mail shipping to the US. 

[Dunsignalling]

29 minutes ago, Cofga said:

My entertainment for the afternoon was to diagnose the problem by swapping the center driver from a loco that works great with the model giving me fits. As expected the problem followed the driver, so it is not a gear train issue just a bad gear on the driver. Looking closely it appears there is a small crack running from the axle outwards and exiting between two of the teeth. This creates a big enough gap between those teeth to allow the idler gear to skip and it happens once per revolution since that is where the crack is. So it is just going to sit on a shelf until Hornby imports a replacement gear or axle set. 

 

The positive side is I now know how to tear down and reassemble the entire driver assembly and associated parts. More fun than I bargained for when I bought this one. The lesson learned is only buy pre-owned locos from a dealer like Rails of Sheffield who now only sell pre-owned equipment on their website in “like new” condition. The rest apparently is relegated to their eBay store. At least the dealer I bought from refunded me £20 to cover my costs for a new driver set and Royal Mail shipping to the US. 

That's the classic split-gear fault though, in my own experience, it happens much more frequently to the larger of the two gears on the common shaft that engages with the motor. 

 

I've only had one failure of a final drive gear but that looked exactly as you describe. If the split gets bad enough, the gear ceases to grip the axle altogether and all drive is lost.

 

AIUI, the wheels/axles have only ever been available as full sets, but be careful to get the correct one as that for the rebuilt locos is equipped to accept Walschaerts valve gear.  

 

John

[Wickham Green too]

On 07/05/2022 at 21:14, Cofga said:

........ is only buy pre-owned locos from a dealer like Rails of Sheffield who now only sell pre-owned equipment on their website in “like new” condition. .......

"like new" is no guarantee, I'm afraid - a Schools class I bought was described thus ....... ignoring the severe case of mazak rot it was suffering from ; clearly hadn't had more than a cursory look by the retailer*.

 

* Not from Rails, but from the other side of northern England-

[Cofga]

18 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

"like new" is no guarantee, I'm afraid - a Schools class I bought was described thus ....... ignoring the severe case of mazak rot it was suffering from ; clearly hadn't had more than a cursory look by the retailer*.

 

* Not from Rails, but from the other side of northern England-

Sounds like it might have been the same dealer. The model of Blackmoor Vale I got from Rails was as near perfect as could be. The box looked like it just came out of a container from China and not a scratch or tyre wear to be found. I could easily be convinced it had never been out of the box in the last 20 years. Runs almost as smooth as both new Merchant Navy Pacifics with flywheels that I got last year. I am now really bummed as I heard back from Hornby and apparently the molds for the old models have been “lost” so there apparently are no replacements to be had unless one turns up as old stock at one of the shops that deal in spares. I guess it will make a good static model or for parts.

[Dunsignalling]

Beware the description "Jerky runner" in the description of used Hornby locos. Many assume it will just need a service, but It often means it has a split gear that hasn't yet let-go completely.

 

Blackmoor Vale was one of the first set of releases of the air-smoothed Light Pacifics. If you need a new chassis and want to look for donor locos, the contemporary releases were Wilton, Tangmere and 92 Squadron, so you don't have to find another BV.   

 

John

[Cofga]

On 10/05/2022 at 02:50, Dunsignalling said:

Beware the description "Jerky runner" in the description of used Hornby locos. Many assume it will just need a service, but It often means it has a split gear that hasn't yet let-go completely.

 

Blackmoor Vale was one of the first set of releases of the air-smoothed Light Pacifics. If you need a new chassis and want to look for donor locos, the contemporary releases were Wilton, Tangmere and 92 Squadron, so you don't have to find another BV.   

 

John

Blackmoor Vale is the one that runs like new, it’s the more recent Torrington that has the split gear. The funny thing is I have 40 year old Athearn locos with their original “Made in America” axle gears that still run like new but the newer “Made in China” locos with a similar mechanism have split gears after just a few years of operation. The folks at AC Models and Spares wrote back that I need the replacement gear set so I am wondering whether the idler gear in that set is the same as the one used on the driver axle in these older locos. Problem is no supplier in the UK seems to have any of those either. I have one more trick to try this weekend and if that doesn’t work I may have to take up 3D printing!

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Cofga said:

Blackmoor Vale is the one that runs like new, it’s the more recent Torrington that has the split gear. The funny thing is I have 40 year old Athearn locos with their original “Made in America” axle gears that still run like new but the newer “Made in China” locos with a similar mechanism have split gears after just a few years of operation. The folks at AC Models and Spares wrote back that I need the replacement gear set so I am wondering whether the idler gear in that set is the same as the one used on the driver axle in these older locos. Problem is no supplier in the UK seems to have any of those either. I have one more trick to try this weekend and if that doesn’t work I may have to take up 3D printing!

One of the gears in the set definitely works as a replacement for that on the axle, but I can't remember which. I've only done the swap once, and it was a while ago. The loco was rather older than yours and Hornby has revised the chassis to allow for DCC sound in the meantime. Service sheet shows the same reference for the gears though.

 

If this does turn out to be your available course, take care that the gear is an exact match. Although the teeth are the same, Hornby have either "beefed up" some of their gears, presumably to help prevent splitting, or there are subtly different versions. This is recent experience gained on Rebuilt locos, though.

 

Check that the centre boss is the same depth. If it's thicker, you may need to remove one of the transparent washers from the axle to compensate. 

 

John

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[down the sdjr]

Nothing to add to the thread really, but went to the Bluebell last week and saw one of my favourite spam cans.

 

 

 

[Cofga]

I am preparing to order some crew for my Bulleid Pacifics and need some advice. On my Channel Packet the driver has a proper seat but the fireman has what looks like a shelf to lean on. On my East Asiatic both the driver and fireman have a similar shelf that appears too high to try and sit on so another leaner? My West Country Class locos have the same type of shelves for the driver and fireman so again are these just there for them to lean on. It mainly makes a difference for the drivers since in the first case he will need to be seated whereas with the other two locos it appears he will be standing. Thanks—Larry

[roundhouse]

On 02/07/2022 at 01:03, Cofga said:

I am preparing to order some crew for my Bulleid Pacifics and need some advice. On my Channel Packet the driver has a proper seat but the fireman has what looks like a shelf to lean on. On my East Asiatic both the driver and fireman have a similar shelf that appears too high to try and sit on so another leaner? My West Country Class locos have the same type of shelves for the driver and fireman so again are these just there for them to lean on. It mainly makes a difference for the drivers since in the first case he will need to be seated whereas with the other two locos it appears he will be standing. Thanks—Larry

I cant remember what I did with my Bulleid light Pacifics so will need to get them out to check.

 

However Modelu based in Brsitol in the UK do superb 3D printed figures. I have used them in numerous locations on my new 009 layout but yet to try them in my OO locos.

 

https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product-category/finescale-figures/railway-and-lineside/1948-1968-rl/loco-crew-on-footplate/

[Dunsignalling]

Got another one going this morning. I gambled on a reasonably priced non-runner from Hatton's a month or two back and hadn't looked at it until today. This was going to be for spares with the body getting a Comet chassis, but will now be repaired. 

 

It's an early rebuilt (ex-Sir Keith Park) redone as 34052 Lord Dowding. New main gear in and a detached wire soldered back on;  she now goes like a good-un. Looking at the wheels, it's never done much so should have plenty of life left. Unusual to need gears on old ones, in my experience, it's later releases that are generally the worst offenders.  

 

Less positive about the tender, though. Cosmetically perfect with all steps etc intact but robbed of wheels and keeper plate. Fortunately I have a 92 Squadron I'm breaking with everything it needs. Damaged Malachite jobs are good as cheap parts donors; this one (forty quids-worth) will have brought three others back from the edge and I still haven't used all of it! Body will be refinished as 34106 Lydford in Brunswick with a spare cut-down 4500 tender obtained at a swapmeet, and mounted on a Perseverance chassis kit I've had so long I'd forgotten it existed. 

 

Another renamed non-runner will be on its way from my Hatton's trunk later in the week...

 

Modelling Mojo reinstated, I think.

 

John

[John Tomlinson]

50 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Got another one going this morning. I gambled on a reasonably priced non-runner from Hatton's a month or two back and hadn't looked at it until today. This was going to be for spares with the body getting a Comet chassis, but will now be repaired. 

 

It's an early rebuilt (ex-Sir Keith Park) redone as 34052 Lord Dowding. New main gear in and a detached wire soldered back on;  she now goes like a good-un. Looking at the wheels, it's never done much so should have plenty of life left. Unusual to need gears on old ones, in my experience, it's later releases that are generally the worst offenders.  

 

Less positive about the tender, though. Cosmetically perfect with all steps etc intact but robbed of wheels and keeper plate. Fortunately I have a 92 Squadron I'm breaking with everything it needs. Damaged Malachite jobs are good as cheap parts donors; this one (forty quids-worth) will have brought three others back from the edge and I still haven't used all of it! Body will be refinished as 34106 Lydford in Brunswick with a spare cut-down 4500 tender obtained at a swapmeet, and mounted on a Perseverance chassis kit I've had so long I'd forgotten it existed. 

 

Another renamed non-runner will be on its way from my Hatton's trunk later in the week...

 

Modelling Mojo reinstated, I think.

 

John

 

Interesting what you say about "92 Squadron" in malachite, which I think is one of the early ones. I've found these to be far better in terms of manufacturing quality in the chassis, free-running and so on, although the back-to-backs usually need a tweak. I have a fairly recent "Exeter" which is the other way, screw holes not square, the thing a bit like it was done after a session in the pub!

 

Good idea to buy cheap early ones for spares, like it!

 

John.

Edited July 24, 2022 by John Tomlinson

[Wickham Green too]

22 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

... screw holes not square, ...

Takes all sorts I s'pose ........... I prefer my screw holes round 🙄