A requiem for Nu-Cast. LMS Garratt

[Kenton]

I can tell you that their scaled down 'Abergevenny' is a pig! But at least they acknowledge the fact!!

 

Is that not true of almost every kit where the drawings have simply been scaled down (or even up)? The etching process is more complex than that especially where allowances should be made for folds, slot'n'tab, half-etched details, etc. All that extra effort in designing a good kit is just wasted when simply scaled.

 

However, I can see why it might be done. Simple, no effort and may just be to satisfy the nagging wishlister types who want one in a different scale, so just an afterthought.

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

The worst and most unbuildable kit I have ever attempted is the NuCast Rebuilt T14. ...it really is not fit for purpose. So I have ordered another!

 

You could start a whole new business philosophy with this. Have you spoken with Lord Sugar about this brilliant marketing strategy?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Is that not true of almost every kit where the drawings have simply been scaled down (or even up)? The etching process is more complex than that especially where allowances should be made for folds, slot'n'tab, half-etched details, etc. All that extra effort in designing a good kit is just wasted when simply scaled.

 

However, I can see why it might be done. Simple, no effort and may just be to satisfy the nagging wishlister types who want one in a different scale, so just an afterthought.

 

I remember having the maths of this explained to me. Apparently, it should usually give a good result to reduce a 7mm/ft to 3mm/ft. But the material thicknesses mean that 7mm to 4mm is always likely to be a dog's breakfast.

[coachmann]

We used to say no b*gger had test-built that kit! I am referring to some etched brass loco kits.

[Kenton]

We used to say no b*gger had test-built that kit! I am referring to some etched brass loco kits.

 

Could start a whole new topic on that subject alone. Especially when the kits are only tested by the designer or an expert professional rather than the dumb muggins buyer. Same usually goes without saying for the kit's instructions. It seems to apply equally well to both etched and cast kits IMO.

 

Fortunately there are some excellent exceptions, and long may they prosper.

[coachmann]

Cast kits are slightly different in that the patterns DID go together before they were dissasembled again and put into a mold. What happens from then sometimes leaves one in the lap of the gods, as anyone that has been involved in the whitemetal casting process will know. Finding a very good mold maker and caster is half the job.

[Kenton]

Cast kits are slightly different in that the patterns DID go together before they were dissasembled again and put into a mold.

 

That is true, but is blaming it on the Gods a good excuse for not test building when they do come back and before sending out to customers to build? I accept that the ravages of time can deteriorate the moulds and make it appropriate that new ones are produced. I also appreciate that the process of pattern making is highly skilled in the first place. But a certain level of quality control removing flash and casting pips is little to ask - ok some would assess this as part of the kit "experience".

[coachmann]

That is true, but is blaming it on the Gods a good excuse for not test building when they do come back and before sending out to customers to build?

By gum lad you're a gem.

[James]

Is that not true of almost every kit where the drawings have simply been scaled down (or even up)? The etching process is more complex than that especially where allowances should be made for folds, slot'n'tab, half-etched details, etc. All that extra effort in designing a good kit is just wasted when simply scaled.

 

However, I can see why it might be done. Simple, no effort and may just be to satisfy the nagging wishlister types who want one in a different scale, so just an afterthought.

 

Connissuer Models scaled down some of their kits from 7mm to 4mm with an extra fret of 'scale specific' parts and the result was pretty good. They would sold with the proviso (sp?) that they wer straight reductions and this may cause some problems and a few fiddly parts. However, I have no complaints what so ever - and they were stupidly cheap too! £42 IIRC for an LNER N10 when LRM charge twive that for the N8/9! Such a shame they're no longer available

[Jol Wilkinson]

Connissuer Models scaled down some of their kits from 7mm to 4mm with an extra fret of 'scale specific' parts and the result was pretty good. They would sold with the proviso (sp?) that they wer straight reductions and this may cause some problems and a few fiddly parts. However, I have no complaints what so ever - and they were stupidly cheap too! £42 IIRC for an LNER N10 when LRM charge twive that for the N8/9! Such a shame they're no longer available

 

James,

 

LRM's pricing is pretty much average for an etched kit and probably less than you would pay for a NuCast kit from when I last looked (there are no prices shown on the Sherwood Models site at present).

 

Connoisseur Models 4mm kits were always good value, but as Jim pointed out they were "shot down" from 7mm which the consequent issues that arose. There was clearly a cost saving that came about from not re-drawing the artwork. I once amended a 4mm kit to 7mm (using CorelDraw) and it is not a five minute job. Not just etch allowances and fold line sizes, but all the holes (bearings, bolts, handrails and knobs, etc.) if you do it properly. And to keep Kenton happy I got someone else to test build it.

 

Did he include all the fittings? I seem to remember that some kits were just etches. LRM kits also include lost wax brass castings for a lot of the fittings, turned buffers, etc. like so many of the etched kit suppliers.

 

However, you pays your money and takes your choice.

 

It is interesting to note the duplication of models between the large NuCast list (with all those absorbed ranges) and the etched kit suppliers. In my view that is probably because there were more than enough modellers that wanted something better than the sort of kit that Metroplitan is building, even if it cost more.

 

Jol

[Kenton]

LRM kits also include lost wax brass castings for a lot of the fittings, turned buffers, etc. like so many of the etched kit suppliers.

Shouldn't that be "unlike"? - as most fitting still tend to be w/m or even just missing/extra

 

I'm another who thinks that LRM kits are on the higher side of average - but, to be fair, would probably have difficulty in proving it. It is an impression - I know not from where as my experience is limited and altogether favourable so far. But that is pure chalk and cheese when trying to make a comparison to cast kits.

 

Pricing of kits has always been a mystery to me. I have never understood why you can pick up an excellent (and to TBH cheap) kit from JE in 7mm for less than £100 where as other equivalent kits sell for over £250 and pricing in 4mm is even more supplier dependent.

 

The one thing about cast w/m kits over all the rest is that you do not have to worry about having sufficient weight for traction.

[jwealleans]

Without wanting to enter into a debate about pricing, it's worth remembering that NuCast kits include Romford wheels, axles, nuts and crankpins. That can be the best part of £50 for a large engine.

 

Both the 4mm Connoisseur kits I have include castings, but the range was much wider than that. I think he has done etch only component sets in 7mm as well.

[hayfield]

Pride of place for the worst kit in cast kit history must go to the McGowan GCR Atlantic.

 

K's GNR Atlantic was also a pig to build, I got mine as a gift in bits as I think at least 2 others had tried to build it and failed

 

Sorry, but I completely disagree with that statement.

 

Kits were brought onto the market to enable the modeller who did not have extensive engineering skills and certainly did not posess or have the finances to afford such tools as lathes.

 

However a "kit" remains the simplest way to put together that elusive model still far out of sight of the profit grasp of the RTR. A kit, requiring some minimal and basic "engineering" skills and the simple tool set of files, snips and soldering iron, is just a jigsaw puzzle.

 

Kenton

 

Kits come in many differing forms of difficulty in building, from a very simple 0-4-0 diesel from DJH to those highly detailed but complex and difficult to build etched brass master pieces.

 

Newcommers to kit building should cut their teeth on simple easy to build small locos, even perhapps with ready assembled or RTR chassis. But many are drawn to big mainline steam locos with complicated outside motion etc and we wonder why so many give up so quickly.

 

Pity that there is not an agreed "difficulty of build rating" that could be put on kits, starting with kits suitable for beginners with few tools, then progressing up the scale, or kits marked suitable for beginners

 

They're going through eBay.

 

Long may they do so, I have just brought a complete unbuilt Cotswold 16xx for under £35

 

this thread came along just in time for me. I had been watching an old K's kit for a Brighton K class mogul on Ebay. With six bids taking it to £56.00, it seemed worth a bid......I was promptly outbid, and, having read this posting, was happy to leave it. It eventually went for £112.00 ! gerrynick

 

Keep looking on Ebay, over the years there have been several loco kits I have wanted. Being out bid for silly prices is usual for rare kits, but keep watching as people see a loco go for silly money and decide to put theirs up for sale. Prices then drop and go back to normality. I kept being out bid on K's tram locos, in the end I found an unbuilt D&S for £19 which is far superior

[James]

LRM's pricing is pretty much average for an etched kit and probably less than you would pay for a NuCast kit from when I last looked (there are no prices shown on the Sherwood Models site at present).

 

I wasn't complaining - just an observation! I'm a happy LRM customer as much of the fleet for Botanic Gardens will come from this source! Maybe I should have been more clear about my thoughts on Jim's prices - I'm not sure how he could charge so little? Maybe he felt that as straight reduction he shouldn't charge too much? A real shame they're no longer available.

 

With regards prices, a little while ago an 'treat' I thought a model of somethin like a Peppercorn A1 or A2 would be nice. I'd got a promotion at work and a pay rise so as I'm very interested in ex-LNER operatiosn it might have been nice. Then I started to look at DJH's prices; £145 for the A1 or A2! Still, could sell the wheels to fund scale wheels; no... they no longer include wheels! So that price for a thirty year old kit seems very expensive to me so I didn't bother - for not much more I could buy Finney kits! Etched kit prices for my 'normal' choices are much better. I think I used the money towards a group order of D&S coaches instead!

[hayfield]

My own view of the old K's range is they gave a lot of people the opportunity to have a range of loco's and rolling stock, that was not avaliable anywhere else. They could be done even without being able to solder.

 

I cut my teeth on them. In the end altering them to make better models.

 

There is not a lot for the beginer to start on, without wasting a fortune if they find it is not for them.

 

I think most of us think the same, they are basically good kits until you get to the bits which should not be in whitemetal (motion etc). Secondly the move to the newer type of wheels and motor turned out to be a bad decision as did using plastic nuts, bolts, handrails etc.

 

Now I often change the wheels to Romfords or Gibsons and put in a better motor, may even add a bit more detail, but they are still enjoyable to build and if you look carefully cheap to buy (ready built) on the s/h market. As are the replacement wheels etc if you look carefully, as I have just brought a Hormby Jinty with a Comet chassis very well made with a flywheel for £34. A Cotswold Jinty will be the beneficary of this.

[Metropolitan]

 

Pity that there is not an agreed "difficulty of build rating" that could be put on kits, starting with kits suitable for beginners with few tools, then progressing up the scale, or kits marked suitable for beginners

 

 

 

 

 

The so called 'difficulty' of a kit is I believe purely down to it's quality, accuracy and design and it had nothing to do with the size or type of the loco. I can't see the few manufacturers that are left being prepared to rate their own kits!! The so called DJH Beginners Shunter kits are in fact very hard to get running properly because the supplied motor is a DS10.

 

No matter the engine, if the parts all fit together accurately straight from the box with no fettiling and if the kit has been well designed with all parts having location aids and tabs there is nothing difficult about it at all. It's when you have to start fighting and sawing and gouging and hacking and filing and filling because the parts don't fit that things get fraught. My pet hate is having to tediously punch hundreds of rivets out of a thin boiler overlay and then grovelling on the carpet in an effort to roll it!!! Why not just cast the thing in whitemetal. All this praise for so called modern all brass kits is misplaced IMHO. They are needlessly complicated. An all brass kit is a crime in just the same way that an all whitemetal kit is a nonsense. Cast in whitemetal that which should be cast in whitemetal, etch that which should be etched and turn that which should be turned. In all cases design the kit for maximum quality and ease of construction.

 

For some reason valve gear has a fearsome reputation as far as difficulty is concerned. Again it is only difficult if it is poorly designed: Small parts that are impossible to get off the fret without distorting them, Badly etched holes and supplying huge brass rivets or pins come to mind. I always use 0.8mm short STEEL rivets and given a nicely etched set of gear it pops together in no time.

 

I think a lot of people make things unnecessarily difficult for themselves by adding utterly useless but fashionable complications such a compensation and csb's in an effort to Keep up with the Joneses etc. Keep it simple.

 

And as for the crass modern trend to cast boilers and other things in resin!!! Don't start me on that one..............

[Horsetan]

....I think a lot of people make things unnecessarily difficult for themselves by adding utterly useless but fashionable complications such a compensation and csb's in an effort to Keep up with the Joneses etc. Keep it simple...............

 

Next you'll be saying P4 doesn't work.

[Captain Kernow]

I wish John A the best of luck with the rest of his Garratt build, and hopefully we'll see the finished result running on the OO circuit of the DRAG test track soon.

 

I was interested to see the price that the E-Bay seller was asking - £495 or thereabouts, I think? When you compare that to the £199 pre-order price for the Hattons Garratt, it got me thinking that there must have been any number of people trying to sell well-built kits for quite a lot more than the price of a new R-T-R version.

 

Similarly, there must have been people who commissioned a kit to be built for them, for whatever the going rate was/is, only to see a vastly cheaper R-T-R version appear at some stage.

 

I've just helped a friend procure kits for a Brighton H2 Atlantic (DJH) and a ACE 'K' Class Mogul (to be built by a professional builder for him). The DJH castings are excellent, although I've no idea whether this is an older or more recent kit. The price of the kit was a shock - over £150 - and that's not including the wheels, which were over £50 for the complete set for an Atlantic from Markits (and very nice they are, too). There was no motor or gearbox either, although to be fair, I don't think that DJH have ever included them, certainly not for a while.

 

Whilst I recall reading about the price of nickel rising, thus affecting the price of model railway wheels, I was somewhat surprised by the cost of the DJH kit, which even allowing for inflation, seems a whole lot more than when I used to make whitemetal loco kits more regularly. Anyway, having waited to confirm that Bachmann and Hornby aren't bringing either of these LBSCR types out this year, my friend will still get the locos he wants and he seems happy to pay the appropriate rate for them.

 

Returning to the subject of K's kits, I certainly cut my teeth on them many years ago. When I was still a teenager at school, I always wanted a 14XX kit, but the cost of buying one outright was way beyond my meagre means at the time. So I gathered up various items of RTR stuff that I felt I could part with, and trekked over from Bath to Max Williams in Lawrence Hill, Bristol, to see whether I could part-exchange them for a 14XX kit.

 

Unfortunately Mr Williams' valuation of my items just fell short of what was needed for a 14XX, so I came away with a '1363' saddle tank kit instead. After one or two false starts and problems, I eventually got it completed and working, assembling the body with old-fashioned 2-part epoxy that required around 24 hours to set! There was no 5 minute epoxy in 1973, certainly I wasn't aware of any!

 

I ended up re-building the 1363, and I think I even fitted Romford wheels to it in the end, before selling it to a friend locally. But it got me on the kit-building road, and was followed by a Wills 22XX bodyline kit and others. I did get my 14XX in the end, and built it in 1984 in OO using the K's chassis and an ECM motor, with various additional bits of detail on the body. It ran smoothly enough but was horribly noisy (my fault). In the end, it became one of only two of my OO locos to get converted to P4, with a replacement Perseverence chassis and Ultrascale wheels, and is now the regular loco on the 'Dawlish Donkey' on John Farmer & Pete Archard's layout 'Matford'.

[coachmann]

K's problems for the builder started with the leady whitemetal and continued with poor motors and wheels. I used to routinely discard the motor, wheels and fittings and set my price accordingly before finally deciding loco building was a dead loss compared with painting. My main painting & lining business was always with the trade and I was priveleged to see many new models weeks before they were advertised. NuCast Models stands out as the work was so varied.

 

Looking back, there was a heck of a lot of kits available. For anyone bemoaning the lack of Scottish prototypes, the North British alone was well served by GEM and all apart from the Atlantic ran into BR days.

[Captain Kernow]

The so called DJH Beginners Shunter kits are in fact very hard to get running properly because the supplied motor is a DS10.

Completely agree with you there, John. As soon as I replaced the DS10 on my 02 diesel kit with a Mashima 9/16, it started to run much better.

 

Cast in whitemetal that which should be cast in whitemetal, etch that which should be etched and turn that which should be turned. In all cases design the kit for maximum quality and ease of construction.

I think that this is where DJH started to lead the market in 'whitemetal' kits all those years ago. I remember being very impressed when I built one of their BR Standard Class 3 2-6-2T kits, with etched brass tanks and cab, but whitemetal boiler.

 

Their valve gear wasn't so good, though, and not a patch on Comet or (especially) Kemilway....

 

I think a lot of people make things unnecessarily difficult for themselves by adding utterly useless but fashionable complications such a compensation and csb's in an effort to Keep up with the Joneses etc. Keep it simple.

I know what you mean, John, but I put compensation in even some of my OO locos, to improve electrical pick up, regardless of what Mr & Mrs Jones are doing with their locos.

 

For P4, whilst I don't mind risking the odd 16t mineral wagon uncompensated or sprung, I don't think I'd risk it on a kit-built loco (although oddly enough, many of us seem perfectly happy to use rigid or semi-rigid R-T-R conversions, which by the same token, generally don't fall off the track either.... )

[BlackRat]

I can remember buying a DJH Peppercorn kit from Beatties in Cardiff, they weren't cheap 30 years ago!

 

But the Beatties was a 'special', which included ALL the wheels, motor, gears etc and included a number of etched name plates.

 

A full kit, apart from paint, glue solder etc.

 

My first essay was a K's bodyline pannier (any one remember those?) running on a Tri-ang chassis. I later bushed the chassis and put in Romfords, tho at the time I didnt have enough to buy the wheel screwdriver as well, so it wobbled a fair bit till next pocket money day! (I was in the 6th form at the time and beer (Albright, 20 odd pence a pint!) was a much better proposition!).

 

Quality has always been an issue, any one recall the HP2M?

 

And the only way around whitemetal coupling rods was to make your own, usually (in my case) from bull head rail!!!

[Kenton]

Pity that there is not an agreed "difficulty of build rating" that could be put on kits

 

This idea I like, even though there would be some controversy and the independence would need carefully watching. It would, I think, have to cover everything, from the suitability of the metal through to the understandability of the instructions.

 

I often find most kits are difficult the first time you build them after the second one it is all easy.

[Metropolitan]

 

[snip] I was interested to see the price that the E-Bay seller was asking - £495 or thereabouts, I think? When you compare that to the £199 pre-order price for the Hattons Garratt, it got me thinking that there must have been any number of people trying to sell well-built kits for quite a lot more than the price of a new R-T-R version.

 

Similarly, there must have been people who commissioned a kit to be built for them, for whatever the going rate was/is, only to see a vastly cheaper R-T-R version appear at some stage.

 

I've just helped a friend procure kits for a Brighton H2 Atlantic (DJH) and a ACE 'K' Class Mogul (to be built by a professional builder for him). The DJH castings are excellent, although I've no idea whether this is an older or more recent kit. The price of the kit was a shock - over £150 - and that's not including the wheels, which were over £50 for the complete set for an Atlantic from Markits (and very nice they are, too). There was no motor or gearbox either, although to be fair, I don't think that DJH have ever included them, certainly not for a while.

 

Whilst I recall reading about the price of nickel rising, thus affecting the price of model railway wheels, I was somewhat surprised by the cost of the DJH kit, which even allowing for inflation, seems a whole lot more than when I used to make whitemetal loco kits more regularly. Anyway, having waited to confirm that Bachmann and Hornby aren't bringing either of these LBSCR types out this year, my friend will still get the locos he wants and he seems happy to pay the appropriate rate for them.

 

Hi CK

 

Yep, DJH kits certainly cannot be called cheap!!! Especially if you then add a nice Comet chassis, turned sprung buffers, finer handrail kobs, decent vauum pipes, etc etc etc etc!!! The Brighton Atlalntic is a good one although the chassis is basic. It's worth forking out for a couple of etched pony trucks at the least IMHO. It think they have used the chassis from their old C1 Atlantic.

 

As far as cost goes yes, kit built loco's are very expensive compared to an RTR but the way that I look at it is that they are remarkably cheap compared to any other form of entertainment:

 

Watch Torquay United at home - £12 per hour

Go to the cinema - £2.50 per hour

Go to a pub for lunch - £15 per hour

Build a £300 kit loco - 0.75p per hour!!!!!

 

For anyone who is interested here is the rough parts cost for the NuCast Garrat (All include P&P)

 

Kit - £209

Markits wheelset -£90. Less, say, £30 back from an eBay sale of the included Romfords. Net - £60

2 x AM10 DJH motors - £84

 

Replacement parts:

Vaccuum pipes, whistles, sprung buffers, Brakes, etc etc. All from Mainly Trains - £35

 

Foxes Transfers, say, - £2

Hard Brass wire - £5

Steel Rivets - £5

Paints and solders etc say - £14

Plasters and Asprin - !!

 

That all adds up to be, err.. quite a lot!!

[coachmann]

An agreed 'difficulty of build' rating is straight out of the nanny society booklet. Some people find it hard to fit vac pipes to a RTR loco. I can just imagine a manufacturer with a "This kit is a K's....Need I say more?" rating on his box!

[Kenton]

Build a £300 kit loco - 0.75p per hour!!!!!

 

Someone's wishful thinking ? or is that a competitive quote?