Black Country Blues

[Indomitable026]

Only a very big horse chesnut (other trees are available)

 

A

 

Or a very big Horse

[Oldddudders]

Or a very big Horse

I think Trojan were near Croydon Airport, on the Purley Way, not in the Black Country!

[trisonic]

I'll do some research, later re: handles. We had some intermittent power issues here since storms passed through..

 

Best, Pete.

[2ManySpams]

Early night for a change last night, coming into the house a midnight covered to scenic debris four nights in a row was wearing thin with SWMBO.... 15th Wedding Anniversary today so i'll be sociable tonight too!

 

(and there was me thinking that bringing a trail of scenic debris in to the house was sociable)

[2ManySpams]

I would say after. we need to cut away some of the lower ply and poly to get point motors and droppers in place so they will be on their sides a bit. So, better later to avoid scratches - do we all agree

 

A

 

Yes, agreement here -- John agrees too (he's posted a 'like')

 

Some of the holes are already bigger....had to offset the weight of the 9" scenic nails!

[2ManySpams]

Chris has put a rather appealing curve into the road which probably suits a high wall or factory wall at the r/h edge (I've always liked these from delightful Darlo- http://goo.gl/maps/O70b7, an opportunity for some billboards to date the scene too), if there's to be some industry at the back (to the l/h side of the road) a lorry backing in/out of such works is quite typical of any journey through the black country in the 70s/80s to cut the view just before the backscene.

 

Had a quick play mocking this idea up last night and I think it's a go-er.

 

The billboards could have a photo of Johnny Gringo selling shiny leather jackets or Crossroads Benny style woolly hats.... (other suggestions please)

[2ManySpams]

I'll do some research, later re: handles. We had some intermittent power issues here since storms passed through..

 

Best, Pete.

 

That America place sounds almost as good as India for power cuts...Glad I live somewhere civilised with proper wiring! ;-p

[Andy Y]

The billboards could have a photo of Johnny Gringo selling shiny leather jackets or Crossroads Benny style woolly hats.... (other suggestions please)

 

Funny you should mention that; I was looking for billboards of 1975 Westerns last night, how about OG leading the charge? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bite_the_bullet_movie_poster.jpg

[Geoff Cook]

I would say after. we need to cut away some of the lower ply and poly to get point motors and droppers in place so they will be on their sides a bit. So, better later to avoid scratches - do we all agree

 

A

 

NO

[28XX]

Mr Trisonic.

 

Do you know what make they are?

 

Have a browse in Maplin then buy the same things cheaper on eBay.

[Captain Kernow]

A couple of shots showing the scale drawing of our single width lock with single gates each end and side, bypass channel.

 

Don't forget you're getting a Mark 1 Cortina to sink into the canal somewhere!...

[2ManySpams]

How far has it traveled? It's like waiting for Christmas.

[Old Gringo]

Here's another superb collection of black & white photographs, that has a few Black Country views and (as you'd expect) lots of memories of Birmingham's steam power.

 

"Steaming into Birmingham and the West Midlands", Richard Coleman & Joe Rajczonek, published by Wharton, Wellingborough, 1997. ISBN 1-899597 04 2.

 

An album of 212 stunning shots and recommended if you're a fan of steam and "the way it was"!

 

All the best, John.

[2ManySpams]

Evening folks, this is the type of cross-section we're looking at for the industrial line over the mainline.

 

 

Wagonbasher has knocked up a few outlines (note absolutely not to scale!):

 

 

A few questions to the wise:

 

1. The waybeams (in green) that go under the rails, how thick are they?

2. Does 15" (5mm) sound about right for the cross (I Section) members?

3. The bridge has a fair skew on it, would the cross members run at 90deg to the main deck beams or would they be on the skew too?

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Mythocentric]

2ManySpas wrote: 3. The bridge has a fair skew on it, would the cross members run at 90deg to the main deck beams or would they be on the skew too?

 

 

I had a wander around today checking bridges within reach (quite a few) plus any photo's I could find for the plate-girder bridge I'm building and in each case the cross-beams are at right angles to the main deck beams. This would appear to be the most logical approach for both strength and ease of construction. Unfortunately I couldn't check the cross-member depth because the all have brick or steel jack arches. From the outside of the only one I can reach at the north end of Lancaster station I estimate the cross-members to be approx. 18 inches deep. Hope this is of use to you. Regards.

[wagonbasher]

Are the Waybeams timber ?

[Siberian Snooper]

The size of the beams will depend on the length of the span and the weight to be applied, both static and dynamic. No doubt there are a few engineers on here that could work it if the info is provided. Have the formula in my old apprentice notes but where the hell it is I don't know. Failing grey cells.

 

SS

[2ManySpams]

2ManySpas wrote: 3. The bridge has a fair skew on it, would the cross members run at 90deg to the main deck beams or would they be on the skew too?

 

 

I had a wander around today checking bridges within reach (quite a few) plus any photo's I could find for the plate-girder bridge I'm building and in each case the cross-beams are at right angles to the main deck beams. This would appear to be the most logical approach for both strength and ease of construction. Unfortunately I couldn't check the cross-member depth because the all have brick or steel jack arches. From the outside of the only one I can reach at the north end of Lancaster station I estimate the cross-members to be approx. 18 inches deep. Hope this is of use to you. Regards.

 

That was my gut feeling too. I have seen bridges with skewed cross-beams but I these are a minority. I suspected a scale 5-6mm would be about right for their depth.

[2ManySpams]

Are the Waybeams timber ?

 

Yes, big chunks of wood! I think reinforced concrete can be used now but for our period(s) timber seems the preferred option.

[2ManySpams]

The size of the beams will depend on the length of the span and the weight to be applied, both static and dynamic. No doubt there are a few engineers on here that could work it if the info is provided. Have the formula in my old apprentice notes but where the hell it is I don't know. Failing grey cells.

 

SS

 

If this were a highway bridge I could probably knock up some quick deck and beam dimensions but, I must admit that I don't know much about the loads on railway bridges. Of course you have self weight, and our waybeam bridge (without deck infill and ballast) would be lighter. Then you are the weight of the loco and stock but the dynamic nature of the old steam loco loading (hammer blow etc) isn't something I studied.

 

My gut feeling would be that for our crossing a main beam depth of 16-20mm (4-5') is probably in the right ball park for our 50' skew span. If anyone has views please shout up!

 

Mark, what were the axle loads of the stock we're running?

[trisonic]

Chris, Did you check your PM's recently? I hope the info therein helps!

 

Best, Pete.

[wagonbasher]

Chris, I pointed out recently that the Janus is about 50 tonnes on three axles and you could imagin that the axle of a wagon might squeeze onto the bridge at the same time. But, The biggest weight is from some of the bogie blosters which could be 90 tonnes and at any one time 4 axles (from two different wagons) could be on the bridge so a full 90 tonnes.

 

Hope that helps

 

A

[Guest Phil]

Chris, I pointed out recently that the Janus is about 50 tonnes on three axles and you could imagin that the axle of a wagon might squeeze onto the bridge at the same time. But, The biggest weight is from some of the bogie blosters which could be 90 tonnes and at any one time 4 axles (from two different wagons) could be on the bridge so a full 90 tonnes.

 

Hope that helps

 

A

 

That is an interesting point. Assuming the branch was built in the late years of the 19th century or in the early 1900s, wagonry of that day was fairly small 4 wheel stuff. Then maybe in the 1920s and 1930s larger bogie vehicles appeared on the scene for steel carrying, GLWs increasing progressivly from then on. PResumably we have to assume that such bridges were rebuilt to cope with the greater wagon weights involved, although a number of branches in the West Midlands certainly, were restricted to smaller, lighter locos like 2Fs and 2MTs. A few select local workings from Bescot and Ryecroft demanded nothing greater than a 2F into the late 1950s, until replaced by the "Mickey Mouse" 2MT. Workings like the Hawkins at Churchbridge, and the Aldridge tile trip.

 

That is not to say that thisw particular branch was restricted, and there is a strong likelihood that the bridge was rebuilt to cope with much heavier locomotives and wagons.

 

That is not to

[2ManySpams]

Ok, done a bit of reading up on span to beam depth ratios..

 

 

Plate girder

Light construction 15:1 to 20:1

Heavy construction 10:1 to 15:1

 

So for 50' span we get beam depths of

 

Light construction 3'4" (13.3mm) to 2'6" (10mm)

Heavy construction 5' (20mm) to 3'4" (13.3mm)

 

We've got some heavy loads and a skew bridge (which applies loads in funny places) and therefore I'd go with heavy construction. Looks like an initial guess of 4' - 5' was about right.

 

Thinking about the issue of loco and loaded wagons being on the bridge at the same time, could we have a rule that the bogie wagon nearest the loco is unloaded? A match wagon type of thing??

[2ManySpams]

That is an interesting point. Assuming the branch was built in the late years of the 19th century or in the early 1900s, wagonry of that day was fairly small 4 wheel stuff. Then maybe in the 1920s and 1930s larger bogie vehicles appeared on the scene for steel carrying, GLWs increasing progressivly from then on. PResumably we have to assume that such bridges were rebuilt to cope with the greater wagon weights involved, although a number of branches in the West Midlands certainly, were restricted to smaller, lighter locos like 2Fs and 2MTs. A few select local workings from Bescot and Ryecroft demanded nothing greater than a 2F into the late 1950s, until replaced by the "Mickey Mouse" 2MT. Workings like the Hawkins at Churchbridge, and the Aldridge tile trip.

 

That is not to say that thisw particular branch was restricted, and there is a strong likelihood that the bridge was rebuilt to cope with much heavier locomotives and wagons.

 

That is not to

 

I think we're certainly thinking that the bridge was strengthened, pre WW2 would give us a good age of bridge that would suit all the proposed periods. We're thinking plate girder, rather than the newer welded type.