Hayfields turnout workbench

[hayfield]

dave

 

I prefer the Exactoscale plastic turnout timbers E4XX PCT0  £8.50 but does 2.5 to 3 turnouts and the longer timbers are much longer than C+L ones so no need to splice together for the longest turnout timbers. Same thickness of 1.6 mm as the C+L ones which will only do 1 and a half turnouts. I am a great fan of plastic timbering and advised Watford MRC in using it on their small portable layout. Ply does look good buy why use it if you are using plastic plain track

 

I use the 0.8 mm check chairs, I cut through one of the chairs but as I thread 2 on to the stock rail and 3 on to the check rail these become functional but are set with check rail gauges. Peter is temporarily out of stock of the 0.8 check chairs, I have reserved a few packs from Phil on the London stand, he has some and they will be at St Albans show at the weekend

 

I have done a hybryd construction using 3 copperclad timbers  in the Y, A & B timber positions, raising the rail with 0.5 mm thick copperclad so chairs can be fitted if you find making free standing common crossings too hard. If the irregular diamonds are curved this may be an easier method adding an extra coperclad timber in what would be the E timber position

 

I don't get on too well with ply & rivet, got all the tools and tried it, the formations made this way look superb and I do admire the workmanship that has gone into building them, realy are works of art, As far as I am concerned its old school and chair and ply construction has now replaced it 

 

PM me if you want to chat through the options, or if you are at St Albans stop and say hello.

[jukebox]

It obviously works and thinking about it the check rail(s) are doing the work. A photo would be very interesting

 

Go down to reply number 5 and there is a very interesting rope incline with a gaunt. This is the Scaleforum site 

 

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4206

 

Well worth a view and in my opinion would make a wonderful model

 

I'm that curious, that I've arranged a site visit for photographic purposes tomorrow!  Shall post here on the weekend.

 

Regards

 

Scott

[martin_wynne]

Go down to reply number 5 and there is a very interesting rope incline with a gaunt. This is the Scaleforum site 

 

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4206

 

See it also on the Templot forum: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2816&forum_id=22

 

Martin.

[Derekstuart]

John I hope you don't mind a little o/t

 

Can anyone suggest why that section shared a common rail? I cannot believe that it is an economy move- which seems to be the popular answer- as such a short length would have saved little- especially as it uses long timbers.

 

It will be interesting to make that out of C&L/E functional chairs- which way does the middle rail lean?

 

(I was going to ask the same question on Templot forum but I've just cleared my cookies and can't log in- I have the forum password at home though. I could also have asked on the scale4 forum, but according to google it has disappeared up its own Kylchap exhaust)

Edited January 12, 2016 by Derekstuart

[hayfield]

Derek

 

As far as I know its a rope incline and a common feature to save money, where wagons cross the lines separate. Dont forget you need 2 wagons as the heavy descending one pulls up the empty one 

 

As its a rope incline I guess it uses different chairs (may be only in the middle) as the weights and stresses involved are lower

[hayfield]

dave

 

I prefer the Exactoscale plastic turnout timbers E4XX PCT0  £8.50 but does 2.5 to 3 turnouts and the longer timbers are much longer than C+L ones so no need to splice together for the longest turnout timbers. Same thickness of 1.6 mm as the C+L ones which will only do 1 and a half turnouts. I am a great fan of plastic timbering and advised Watford MRC in using it on their small portable layout. Ply does look good buy why use it if you are using plastic plain track

 

I use the 0.8 mm check chairs, I cut through one of the chairs but as I thread 2 on to the stock rail and 3 on to the check rail these become functional but are set with check rail gauges. Peter is temporarily out of stock of the 0.8 check chairs, I have reserved a few packs from Phil on the London stand, he has some and they will be at St Albans show at the weekend

 

I have done a hybryd construction using 3 copperclad timbers  in the Y, A & B timber positions, raising the rail with 0.5 mm thick copperclad so chairs can be fitted if you find making free standing common crossings too hard. If the irregular diamonds are curved this may be an easier method adding an extra coperclad timber in what would be the E timber position

 

I don't get on too well with ply & rivet, got all the tools and tried it, the formations made this way look superb and I do admire the workmanship that has gone into building them, realy are works of art, As far as I am concerned its old school and chair and ply construction has now replaced it 

 

PM me if you want to chat through the options, or if you are at St Albans stop and say hello.

 

 

A few more words on these, most of the chairs are functional, even the common crossing ones whilst not setting the gauge holds the unit in place and stops both sideways and up and down movements. The slide chairs allow the rails to slide and I use super glue to hold them to the stock rails. The way I use the check rail chairs even though I cut through one part of the chair holds both check and stock rails. Sometimes I have to trim the centre part of the block chairs

 

For those who may be interested in costings these are the parts for a B7

 

4 x strips of ply timbers

51 x standard chairs

7 bridge chairs

14 slide chairs

10 x check chairs

1 pk additional switch chairs

1 pk common crossing chairs

2 x plastic fishplates

 

The common crossing packs are for 5 different sizes of crossings, additional switch rail packs are for one left and one right turnout, pack of check chairs covers 10 turnouts

 

You dont need to use some of the packs, you can cut up standard chairs and save on check, common crossing, bridge and additional switch chairs so you would use 110 standard chairs + 14 slide chairs, this may be more economical if only building the two or three turnouts but if you can use most of the parts its about £3 more for the added details, so for either side of a tenner once rail and timbers is taken into consideration you have a highly detailed turnout

 

Within reason if the odd person wants a few of the special chairs rather than have to buy a whole pack, if I can I am happy to supply at cost plus postage, but I must point out the odd person please as I don't keep massive stocks. Please see it as a facility to assist fellow modellers if I can, but not I have run out of parts service

[Junctionmad]

Thanks John , very useful , I'll order up enough exactoscale plastic bits to do a few turnouts and try my hand

 

Do you find you can solder droppers , tie bars etc , without the whole thing melting

 

I assume you build the common crossing and wing rails as one unit with thin copperclad and then glue this to the plastic sleepers. ?

 

Thanks again

 

Dave

[johndon]

It obviously works and thinking about it the check rail(s) are doing the work. A photo would be very interesting

 

Go down to reply number 5 and there is a very interesting rope incline with a gaunt. This is the Scaleforum site 

 

 http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4206

 

Well worth a view and in my opinion would make a wonderful model

 

That's my thread

 

Here's my go at it in Templot (with much thanks to Martin for his guidance) - it's reasonably close but difficult to get spot on as I suspect that there is some foreshortening going on in the original pic.  Note that I've still got some timber shoving to do...

 

 

John

Edited January 13, 2016 by johndon

[hayfield]

Thanks John , very useful , I'll order up enough exactoscale plastic bits to do a few turnouts and try my hand

 

Do you find you can solder droppers , tie bars etc , without the whole thing melting

 

I assume you build the common crossing and wing rails as one unit with thin copperclad and then glue this to the plastic sleepers. ?

 

Thanks again

 

Dave

 

Dave

 

Droppers are easy, liquid flux. Tin the rails by going in and out quickly with a very hot iron, tin the wire. Then join both again with a lot of flux and in and out quickly, Carrs red flux is good for NS & brass

 

Tiebars I leave fitting the first 2 slide chairs till I have soldered them to the switch blades. Cannot get on with the C&L wire ones though

[hayfield]

That's my thread

 

Here's my go at it in Templot (with much thanks to Martin for his guidance) - it's reasonably close but difficult to get spot on as I suspect that there is some foreshortening going on in the original pic.  Note that I've still got some timber shoving to do...

 

 

John

 

John

 

Looks very good, are you going to build it ?

[Junctionmad]

Dave

 

Droppers are easy, liquid flux. Tin the rails by going in and out quickly with a very hot iron, tin the wire. Then join both again with a lot of flux and in and out quickly, Carrs red flux is good for NS & brass

 

Tiebars I leave fitting the first 2 slide chairs till I have soldered them to the switch blades. Cannot get on with the C&L wire ones though

Thanks again John . I've messed around with plastic and functional chair construction , I'll now try in earnest

 

Dave

[johndon]

John

 

Looks very good, are you going to build it ?

 

Thanks John.

 

Possibly, the plan is to build the Pelton Level layout for the Scalefour Society Standard Gauge Workbench first and then this could be built as an extension to that as, in reality, Pelton Level was off to the left of the plan I posted which, as shown is 8' long so twice the size allowed by the rules of the SGW.

 

John

[hayfield]

Dave

 

I am coming to the conclusion that if you do actually master the making of common crossings then the rest is plain sailing. I would certainly go for bridge chairs as they are quite distinctive. If you use 2 bolt chairs you may feel the other special chairs are not worth buying. Certainly the common crossing chairs other than the crossing nose chair can be made from careful cutting of standard chairs, the block chair centres can be made from microstrip etc. I guess its like everything else the more you make the easier it becomes

 

I guess like others I could be called a hand built turnout snob, but put a decent hand built turnout against a ready to lay one (especially when its in H0 gauge) there is no contest and that's before you start curving them

 

Let us know how you are getting on

[hayfield]

Thanks John.

 

Possibly, the plan is to build the Pelton Level layout for the Scalefour Society Standard Gauge Workbench first and then this could be built as an extension to that as, in reality, Pelton Level was off to the left of the plan I posted which, as shown is 8' long so twice the size allowed by the rules of the SGW.

 

John

 

 

John

 

Shove the rules, they are for the guidance of wise men anyway. It will make a stunning show piece.

 

What chairs were used for the centre rail ?

[johndon]

 

 

What chairs were used for the centre rail ?

 

I've no idea at this point, need to do some research...

 

John

[Derekstuart]

John

The subject of "rules" for the SGW challenge were discussed "in that place" several times and no less than the Deputy Chairman (one of the down to earth, approachable types that can be found there) suggested that they were just guidelines to help demonstrate that a small layout could be built in P4 and that you don't need to replicate a major junction to do so.

 

Of course, as an ex member I haven't looked for a while and the "rules" might have changed since- or even disappeared with the rest of them up their own tunnel portals.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Derekstuart

[Junctionmad]

Dave

 

I am coming to the conclusion that if you do actually master the making of common crossings then the rest is plain sailing. I would certainly go for bridge chairs as they are quite distinctive. If you use 2 bolt chairs you may feel the other special chairs are not worth buying. Certainly the common crossing chairs other than the crossing nose chair can be made from careful cutting of standard chairs, the block chair centres can be made from microstrip etc. I guess its like everything else the more you make the easier it becomes

 

I guess like others I could be called a hand built turnout snob, but put a decent hand built turnout against a ready to lay one (especially when its in H0 gauge) there is no contest and that's before you start curving them

 

Let us know how you are getting on

Thanks John

 

Coming from a copper clad and non functional chair background , I'm currently getting to grips with all the special chairs and especially how to fabricate bridge chairs etc. The fabrication of the track , I'm very comfortable with.

 

My current view , in advance of building a complete turnout , in plastic. Is to pre fabricate the common crossing and wing rail and solder it together on 0.5 to 0.6mm brass, this is then stuck to the plastic sleepers and finished with a combination of functional and non functional chairs, I agree with you re bridge chairs , I'd like to represent them , and as you may also have noticed elsewhere. I'm a fan of trackwork.

 

I'll report back

 

Dave

[johndon]

John

The subject of "rules" for the SGW challenge were discussed "in that place" several times and no less than the Deputy Chairman (one of the down to earth, approachable types that can be found there) suggested that they were just guidelines to help demonstrate that a small layout could be built in P4 and that you don't need to replicate a major junction to do so.

 

Of course, as an ex member I haven't looked for a while and the "rules" might have changed since- or even disappeared with the rest of them up their own tunnel portals.

 

I know but I want to get the Pelton Level layout built first, the Templot plan was as much to see if I could it as anything else but it certainly has the potential to become an extension...

 

John

[hayfield]

Thanks John

 

Coming from a copper clad and non functional chair background , I'm currently getting to grips with all the special chairs and especially how to fabricate bridge chairs etc. The fabrication of the track , I'm very comfortable with.

 

My current view , in advance of building a complete turnout , in plastic. Is to pre fabricate the common crossing and wing rail and solder it together on 0.5 to 0.6mm brass, this is then stuck to the plastic sleepers and finished with a combination of functional and non functional chairs, I agree with you re bridge chairs , I'd like to represent them , and as you may also have noticed elsewhere. I'm a fan of trackwork.

 

I'll report back

 

Dave

 

Dave

 

I would not bother with sticking the common crossing in place, as the chairs do that job. The whole chairs at both ends do allow a small amount of adjustment.

 

Little confused about fabricating bridge chairs, you can buy them. The number you require will alter depending on which turnout you are building

 

I have noticed you giving a bit of banter and sound advice/comment. Still some of the replies are thought provoking whilst others do make me smile, especially when someone includes Star Wars, least we can be thankful its not gauge wars.

 

John

The subject of "rules" for the SGW challenge were discussed "in that place" several times and no less than the Deputy Chairman (one of the down to earth, approachable types that can be found there) suggested that they were just guidelines to help demonstrate that a small layout could be built in P4 and that you don't need to replicate a major junction to do so.

 

Of course, as an ex member I haven't looked for a while and the "rules" might have changed since- or even disappeared with the rest of them up their own tunnel portals.

 

Derek

 

Just being my usual frivolous self. That is my reply if I am asked to do something I don't agree with/see the point of by one of my managers. Stops them dead in their tracks usually.

Edited January 13, 2016 by hayfield

[Junctionmad]

Dave

 

I would not bother with sticking the common crossing in place, as the chairs do that job. The whole chairs at both ends do allow a small amount of adjustment.

 

Little confused about fabricating bridge chairs, you can buy them. The number you require will alter depending on which turnout you are building

 

I have noticed you giving a bit of banter and sound advice/comment. Still some of the replies are thought provoking whilst others do make me smile, especially when someone includes Star Wars, least we can be thankful its not gauge wars.

 

 

 

What I meant was based on the Scalefour notes on build track with C &L components

 

Given that I can't buy bridge chairs that are correctly setup for 1mm flange ways. My idea was to follow the scalefour advice and prefabricated the frog ( v and wing rails ) as a soldered pieces , held by 0.6mm " stretchers" these are then glued down to the sleeper and semi functional chairs added outside.

 

Are you suggesting holding the V and the wing rails solely in cutdown plastic functional chairs.

 

As for gauge wars , I got banned from that thread , so can't say any more. , that's what I get defending Martins reputation , anyway no discussing moderation

 

Thanks again John

[Derekstuart]

Dave

 

I hope John won't mind me butting in. The bridge chairs (L1) are just smaller versions of the standard (S1) chairs that are used in certain spaces were you cannot fit a regular chair. I think you are getting them confused with the check rail chairs which are completely different, being designed to hold 2 rails (stock and check). Bridge chairs were so named because older bridges used longitudinal beams to mount the chairs on and they were narrower.

 

I tried holding the whole crossing together via plastic chairs only and it works. Sort of. You have a problem that although fairly strong, the glue is never going to be as strong as solder- and this is the "heart" of the turnout.

 

Secondly, as I've tried to explain before ( badly I suspect) the chairs around the crossing are half chairs specially moulded to look nice. John makes a valid point that they do hold the rails in place to a degree- but it's not going to be enough to hold it without solder.

 

Thirdly, if you use functional chairs- including check chairs- for the common crossing they won't look prototypical.

 

You have understood quite correctly how to solder up the common crossing. I learned most of my skills in this from Mr Hayfield.

 

 

 

Go to the following page, C&L have a good set of guides as to what chairs are what.

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=36
 

Go down to where it says "special switch and crossing chairs"

 

I hope that helps.

 

John I hope you don't mind me poking my nose in but I've been through this very same dilemma recently and if you remember you gave me some very wise advice.

[jukebox]

As promised - a variation on gauntlet track:

 

 

 

Dual 1067/1435mm track, realigned via a fixed frog to allow bogie exchanges to take place.

 

 

The location is Midland Workshops, Perth.

 

Whilst the workshops, now closed, date to 1901, standard gauge track didn't arrive here until 1966, so would be that era vintage.

[Junctionmad]

Dave

 

I hope John won't mind me butting in. The bridge chairs (L1) are just smaller versions of the standard (S1) chairs that are used in certain spaces were you cannot fit a regular chair. I think you are getting them confused with the check rail chairs which are completely different, being designed to hold 2 rails (stock and check). Bridge chairs were so named because older bridges used longitudinal beams to mount the chairs on and they were narrower.

 

I tried holding the whole crossing together via plastic chairs only and it works. Sort of. You have a problem that although fairly strong, the glue is never going to be as strong as solder- and this is the "heart" of the turnout.

 

Secondly, as I've tried to explain before ( badly I suspect) the chairs around the crossing are half chairs specially moulded to look nice. John makes a valid point that they do hold the rails in place to a degree- but it's not going to be enough to hold it without solder.

 

Thirdly, if you use functional chairs- including check chairs- for the common crossing they won't look prototypical.

 

You have understood quite correctly how to solder up the common crossing. I learned most of my skills in this from Mr Hayfield.

 

 

 

Go to the following page, C&L have a good set of guides as to what chairs are what.

 

http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=36

 

Go down to where it says "special switch and crossing chairs"

 

I hope that helps.

 

John I hope you don't mind me poking my nose in but I've been through this very same dilemma recently and if you remember you gave me some very wise advice.

Derekl, thanks, yes I have my chairs mixed up

 

what I was talking about was the chairs  hold the V and the associated wing rail at the nose.

 

I cant see this being done well in purely functional chairs, what I plan to do is follow the societies digest on C&L components and  solder up the wing and V rails to 0.6mm copper clad and then stick these to the appropriate nose timbers and surround them with the most suitable chair ( even the correct p4 chair cut down to 00-SF) ( yes I know  00, but that is for this layout ) 

 

 

dave

[hayfield]

What I meant was based on the Scalefour notes on build track with C &L components

 

Given that I can't buy bridge chairs that are correctly setup for 1mm flange ways. My idea was to follow the scalefour advice and prefabricated the frog ( v and wing rails ) as a soldered pieces , held by 0.6mm " stretchers" these are then glued down to the sleeper and semi functional chairs added outside.

 

Are you suggesting holding the V and the wing rails solely in cutdown plastic functional chairs.

 

As for gauge wars , I got banned from that thread , so can't say any more. , that's what I get defending Martins reputation , anyway no discussing moderation

 

Thanks again John

 

 

Dave

 

I think we may be talking at cross purposes, The additional detail chairs from Exactoscale derive from their P4 company kits, whilst most of the chairs are functional the common crossing comes ready built as does the connection between the stock and switch rails

 

The first thing to do is build the common crossing, either as an independent unit as below

Or you can replace 3 or 4 timbers with the correct thickness copperclad strip, then using 0.5 mm spacers solder the common crossing up

 

As you can see there are 2 types of chair, the bridge being the smaller and standard S1 chairs. I will use the common crossing chairs to lock everything together

 

There is nothing that can without alteration give a 1 mm flangeway, though I do adapt the 0.8 mm check rail chairs to hold the check rails at the correct distance. I hope I now understand what you were saying. Do let us know how you are getting on

 

Edit

 

Sorry Dave but forgot to send my reply as I got distracted. The common crossing chairs are 4 mm rather than P4, make sure you get the correct slide chairs as they do P4 & 4 mm and with the check rail chairs the .8 mm ones 

Edited January 14, 2016 by hayfield

[Junctionmad]

Thanks John. Will revert after I order a few more bits from Pete and try my hand , I really appreciate you and Dereks advice

 

Dave