Hayfields turnout workbench

[hayfield]

This is about the order I do, and like most things easier to do than explain

 

1/ I fit the Vee first as I want this dead centre

2/ Thread the chairs on the stock rail

3/ Using a gauge stick the 2 chairs opposite the each end of the vee (chairs on the stock rail). Then stick by eye the first chair at the heal end

4/ Once set I use a steel ruler against the head of the rail (above the chairs), once I have checked there is not a kink. Stick every 4th or 5th chair and hold for a few seconds whilst the solvent dries,

5/ Once happy all is OK stick the rest in place

 

I have a selection of steel rules, normally I use a 12" one which is 1" wide, I also have thinner 6" and a 18" both about 1/2" wide. Just remember against the head of the rail, not the foot

 

 

I found this one, the ruler rests on top of the chairs against the head of the rail

[CoViAnna]

Thank you

[hayfield]

Visitors this weekend so time has been limited, also slightly altering the system I use to fix the chairs in place

 

 

I started off by soldering the chairs to the rail first, then soldering them to the timbers

 

With the two switch rails I changed the construction method. I have soldered the first half chair to the rail, then solder the half chair to the timber, after pre tinning each timber

I then solder a half chair to the every 4th timber and rail above it. Once these are in place I solder the remaining half chairs in place. All these are outer chairs, with the gauges still in place (to keep the gauge intact) I fold the tails in place

 

 

Here you see 3 chair halves, all bent  to the initial shape, right hand one not tinned the other two show both the base and part which touches the rail being tinned

 

I pre tin the chairs where they touch the rail and base. This method is much easier to ensure these half chairs solder to both rail and timber

 

This is a very prolonged system of building, whilst I am enjoying it I would only advise those who are both competent in soldering and have either the knowledge or a plan of which chair type goes where

[Colin parks]

Hi John,

 

That is an epic Masokits point you are making!   I might have missed the information, but what is the crossing angle of this piece?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[hayfield]

Colin

 

Its a 1 in 12 and comes in at just over 15" in length, only a B switch though. Using GWR 2 bolt chairs with joggled stock rails where the switches touch  For a club P4 layout 12 meters by 5 in size, was asked if I would consider building a few, but said one was enough just for the experience of building one.

 

This build method is so time consuming, though through experience I am finding the best and most economical in time and materials for me and a second build would be far quicker. Using solder cream though expensive may also speed up construction and make the construction much neater. Certainly a method for the experienced builder

 

Had I built this using plastic chairs and either plastic or ply timbers, it would have been done in half the time or quicker. The one down side for the GWR modeller using plastic chairs is the slide chairs, but if I spent the time modifying them from 4 bolt to 2 bolt it still would be far quicker, plus I would have detailed block chairs etc. I am thinking about buying a fret as the slide chairs may be an alternative to using cast slide chairs using the sleeper tiebar system I am using

[hayfield]

 

This is the start of the process of forming the slide chairs, from right to left

Etching as removed from the fret

First bend

Rear of slide plates tinned

Slide plate now soldered

 

 

Left hand side has the first bend of the rear of the chair

 

Will post the next part of the fitting the slide chairs process later or tomorrow

[hayfield]

Here are a few more photos

 

 

Here is a shot showing 2 chairs pre tinned top and bottom,

 

You can see 4 more chairs soldered into position from right, first chair is a standard chair, the next two bases are soldered to the timbers and rail, the left hand middle one has the outside part of the chair folded to the rail top, left chair has had a screwdriver placed on the middle and pressed home forming the chair.

 

I have now done one side of the PL1 & 2 chairs by modifying the slide chairs but off to work now so the write up will be tomorrow

 

The photo is very poor will try and edit it better tomorrow

Edited June 28, 2016 by hayfield

[hayfield]

Very sad to see Peter at C&L is having to retire early due to his health problems, I would like to wish him well and hopefully the track part of the business will be taken over as a going concern

[hayfield]

Here are a few more photos

 

361.JPG

 

Here is a shot showing 2 chairs pre tinned top and bottom,

 

You can see 4 more chairs soldered into position from right, first chair is a standard chair, the next two bases are soldered to the timbers and rail, the left hand middle one has the outside part of the chair folded to the rail top, left chair has had a screwdriver placed on the middle and pressed home forming the chair.

 

I have now done one side of the PL1 & 2 chairs by modifying the slide chairs but off to work now so the write up will be tomorrow

 

The photo is very poor will try and edit it better tomorrow

I have tried to stop the glare of the underside of the slide chair by painting it yellow

 

 

Sadly still not very clear but in conjunction with the photo below, you can see the outside part of the slide chair is a vertical tab, after soldering the base of the slide chair to both rail and timber (second chair from the right, this tab is bent over to touch the rail top (next chair) then as I said the tip of a screwdriver is pressed in the middle forming the chair

 

[hayfield]

Having fitted the 6 slide chairs I now need to attend to the 4 special chairs between and the first normal chair. These are the PL1, PL2, PL3 & PL4 chairs. PL3 & PL4 chairs are block chairs (this is one chair which holds 2 rails). I have already fitted the outer and inner parts and will fit the middle piece later. Both PL1 & PL2 chairs are a hybrid slide chair, with the stock rail being held as per normal and a slide plate cast on to it for the switch rail to slide (move a little)

 

 

There is only 1 gap as I have fitted the first in place. The slide chair is started as normal

 

 

The rear part is cut off. Looking at the bottom rail where I have 1 2 3 4  the chairs on these timbers are standard (outer part) chairs, which look different to the outer part of the slide chairs to their left

 

 

Then filed to length

 

 

Finally soldered in place

 

Very few people will notice the subtle difference of these chairs, but it is important that the rail can flex over this part as it increases the area which moves by 33%

[martin_wynne]

Hi John,

 

You are the expert on what parts are available from where.

 

Have you tried the new bullhead rail joiners/fishplates from DCC Concepts? The C&L website says they now have them in stock: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=830_913&product_id=12291

image linked from: http://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/LTK-BH00_3240612_Qty1_3.jpg

 

If dropper wires are pre-soldered to these, they would make an unobtrusive electrical connection and avoid heat damage to chairs when adding dropper wires. Also being phosphor-bronze, soldering is easy using electrical flux, rather than soldering dropper wires to existing steel rail or the new stainless steel rail. This assumes they are tight-fitting on the rail of course.

 

It's unfortunate that they show 6 fishbolts rather than 4. Some special 6-bolt fishplates are now in use, but not on bullhead rail.

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Martin

 

I have a thing about rail joiners, I just do not like them. If I use etched fishplates I remove the centre part that joins both sides, either before or file them off after soldering.

 

Its just my opinion, but for the scenic side nothing beats either etched or Exactoscale plastic and cast fishplates, plus they have 6 bolts

 

They are an improvement on a rail joiner, but if the track is permanently held down Exactoscale plastic ones take some beating, plus they isolate the section free of charge 

[martin_wynne]

Hi John,

 

I agree that the Exactoscale fishplates look by far the best.

 

But if the new DCC Concepts track takes off, I just do not see how folks are going to make reliable soldered dropper wire connections to stainless steel rail. Generally in electrical work the only reliable way to make an electrical connection to stainless steel is a physical connection -- bolt, screw, rivet, clip, clamp, etc. If these rail joiners are a firm tight fit on the rail they would seem to answer that requirement.

 

DCC Concepts say their special "no-clean" flux and higher soldering temperatures with a 2% silver 179 degree solder (SMT electronics solder) works, but nowhere else in any engineering documents can I find any suggestion that stainless steel can be soldered with any other than an aggressive acid flux. Which must be thoroughly cleaned off afterwards to avoid future corrosion. I can see modellers unskilled in soldering making an awful mess and melting several adjacent chairs in the process.

 

I can see this DCC Concepts bullhead track needing a power clip device similar to what I remember from Triang track 50 years ago (and which is presumably still available from Hornby?)

 

I will be very happy to be proved wrong on this, time will tell.

 

There is more discussion about this here: http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4945&p=46573#p46573

 

Martin.     

[hayfield]

Martin

 

Thanks, I have not really kept abreast of what DC Concepts are doing and paid no heed to the fact that the rail was stainless steel. I was just commenting on the general use of these rail joiners. Soldering the droppers to phosphor-bronze joiners is fine

 

I have trouble soldering to normal steel with Carrs red flux, so its out with the green flux and I now do posses neutralising rinse but as for stainless steel, above my pay grade as they say. One day I will invest in a soldering station, but a small RC yacht in in the queue first (we have a super boating lake 5 miles away and each time I walk past it and see the oldies having fun the urge to join them grows).

 

I am more concerned about Pete's health first and the continuation of the track side of the business

[hayfield]

Having completer the second switch rail its time to go to the check rails

 

 

This shows the etch in the flat and 2 views of the first bend

 

 

The outside part of the check rail chairs are soldered to the check rail

 

 

The chairs are then soldered to the timbers

 

 

These 4 chairs from right to left show the folds to complete the chair

 

Right.  As soldered to the timber.

Centre right, folded upright

Centre left. Top of chair etch bent to touch rail top

Left, After the centre of the etch has been depressed with a screw driver blade to form the chair

 

[Stephen Freeman]

Martin

 

Thanks, I have not really kept abreast of what DC Concepts are doing and paid no heed to the fact that the rail was stainless steel. I was just commenting on the general use of these rail joiners. Soldering the droppers to phosphor-bronze joiners is fine

 

I have trouble soldering to normal steel with Carrs red flux, so its out with the green flux and I now do posses neutralising rinse but as for stainless steel, above my pay grade as they say. One day I will invest in a soldering station, but a small RC yacht in in the queue first (we have a super boating lake 5 miles away and each time I walk past it and see the oldies having fun the urge to join them grows).

 

I am more concerned about Pete's health first and the continuation of the track side of the business

Hi,

Normally I use Safety Flux from Building 0 Gauge online, seems to work on most metals, though not tried it on Stainless Steel yet. Personally I wouldn't use Green Label flux ever. I did buy some Brown label flux once, it remains unopened as does the pack of solder for soldering aluminium. I found Superglue was an acceptable alternative for the job in question.

[hayfield]

Stephen

 

Thanks for the info, I know little about fluxes and use Carrs Red when I can, Carrs Green if I have to. It might be a good idea if someone who knows about soldering in depth would run a thread to explain the pro's and con's of this dark art. An introduction into soldering irons would also help as all I have are 2 Antex 25 watt irons (one broke and all I could get at short notice was a new one, since bought a replacement element

[hayfield]

Update on the Masokits turnout, all bar the centre parts of the block chairs are finished and I need to make up the tiebar, which is a work of art in its self

 

I am in the process of of checking the joints and re-soldering where required prior to a first clean of the turnout. It works really well, but then a 1 in 12 crossing angle is nice and smooth

[hayfield]

Here is the Masokits turnout, not cleaned up yet as I re-soldered a few chairs whilst I watched/listened to the football

 

 

This is a real labour of love to build, though a second unit would go together quicker now I have (nearly) done one

 

 

Now to the tiebars, the etch and a piece of 0.010 " double sided copperclad sheet

 

 

Tiebar cut from the fret and a 1 mm piece of copperclad cut from the strip

 

 

First folds done

 

 

Now finished, what a pain to get both sides of the unit electrically isolated from each other. Soldering it together is bad enough, but nothing like filing the 3 cuts in the copperclad, filing off 4 tabs which held one half to the other, but worst of all scraping the two edges to remove tiny bits of swarf which would have shorted it out, this was the longest job and my illuminated magnifier came into its own

 

Still the tiebar does look good, and will fit it once the turnout has been thoroughly cleaned up.

 

Cannot find my 1 mm soldering iron tip so cannot fit the central parts of the block chairs

 

As for my own Bodmin project, had a play with Templot after getting a rough size of the station from a Bing map

 

 

The initial part will be the trackwork between the signal box and engine shed, for speed I have put in a diamond crossing, this may turnout to be either a single of double slip or as is a turnout into the shed with 2 catch points built in

 

 

 

[hayfield]

 

Revised plan with a turnout (with 2 traps) instead of a slip

 

 

A few buildings added

 

Still a turnout to scrub and some gardening to do

[hayfield]

A couple of photos of the Masokits tiebar

 

 

Not too difficult to fold up and solder, but getting rid of the brass swarf to get it electrically isolated was a pain

 

 

They do look good though, pity they are only P4 and EM with a dodge or two

[Stephen Freeman]

Hi again,

 

Fluxes - still awaiting delivery of flux from Gaugemaster and ss rail fom Hattons - may be here today I think. However, I have managed to solder a wire to a small piece of ss I have using the flux I mentioned, so am not anticipating any great difficulty there.

 

I did have a 25 watt Antex iron which worked with the TC660 but after it gave up the ghost I decided that the 50 watt version was the better option anyway. For bigger jobs I use a London Road Models RSU or mini blowtorch.

 

Masokits etched stretcher bars - I know Michael Clark says you can't use them in 00 and it's certainly not as easy but at a pinch you can, just.

 

The rail from Hattons has now arrived, if you are already using hi-ni there isn't a lot of difference visually, to me, when you put them side by side and look at the running surfaces. Not had a chance to look at it further yet.

 

IMHO - Maleability seems to be similar to normal steel rail but it is much harder to cut than either NS or normal steel rail. Solders much better than others say. I haven't used their flux and had no problem.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Stephen Freeman

[MikeH_83]

A couple of photos of the Masokits tiebar

 

372.JPG

 

Not too difficult to fold up and solder, but getting rid of the brass swarf to get it electrically isolated was a pain

 

373.JPG

 

They do look good though, pity they are only P4 and EM with a dodge or two

 

Have you found any tiebars that look good that would work with 4-sf? Or is the copperclad strip the best way?

[hayfield]

Mike

 

Stephen recons that that at a pinch the Massokits will work in 00 gauge and  you may have to fold the 2 vertical tags which solder to the inside of the switch rails not on the etched bend but 1.25 mm further back from the fold (making sure you do not bridge the isolation gap in the copperclad next to it, also filing a notch in the rail foot will get an extra mm or so.

 

Or rather more fiddly cut the etch in half, one side in 2 pieces (joint in the middle) the other side in 3 bits (a joint just inside each tiebar) reducing the etches in total between the switch rails by 3 mm) would work, but as I said very fiddley

 

Using a copperclad timber on the 3rd timber position with cast chairs is the best looking, with plastic microstrip dummy tiebars. This is the easiest method to build

 

If you could get 0.010 thou double sided copperclad (as in the Massokits cutting a 1 mm strip by 25 mm long and getting some 1 mm brass strip (from an etched fret) and manually making a tiebar similar to the Masso kits

 

Edit

 

If disecting the Massokits tiebars rather than using the 0.010 thou double sided copperclad the C&L 0.6 mm may give a bit more strength

 

Perhaps Martin could confirm the gap between the switch rails for 4SF

Edited July 8, 2016 by hayfield

[MikeH_83]

Mike

 

Stephen recons that that at a pinch the Massokits will work in 00 gauge and  you may have to fold the 2 vertical tags which solder to the inside of the switch rails not on the etched bend but 1.25 mm further back from the fold (making sure you do not bridge the isolation gap in the copperclad next to it, also filing a notch in the rail foot will get an extra mm or so.

 

Or rather more fiddly cut the etch in half, one side in 2 pieces (joint in the middle) the other side in 3 bits (a joint just inside each tiebar) reducing the etches in total between the switch rails by 3 mm) would work, but as I said very fiddley

 

Using a copperclad timber on the 3rd timber position with cast chairs is the best looking, with plastic microstrip dummy tiebars. This is the easiest method to build

 

If you could get 0.010 thou double sided copperclad (as in the Massokits cutting a 1 mm strip by 25 mm long and getting some 1 mm brass strip (from an etched fret) and manually making a tiebar similar to the Masso kits

 

Edit

 

If disecting the Massokits tiebars rather than using the 0.010 thou double sided copperclad the C&L 0.6 mm may give a bit more strength

 

Perhaps Martin could confirm the gap between the switch rails for 4SF

 

Thanks, I will look into that.  Btw are there any check chairs that would work fine with 4-sf? (just thinking the EM guys use a 1mm gap so what they use should work right?) Or is it a case of mashing up 2 normal chairs?