RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted December 13, 2012 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Sorry,but I would disagree that the quality of their products has deteriorated to that extent. I realise that there have been problems within Germany and Austria and prices have spiralled ever upwards,putting the product out of reach for many. Which brings me back to the point I am making. Do we want this to happen to the UK r-t-r market ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 That's awfully cynical Ian! In these straitened times, JE, manufacturers need to hit the right note at the right price at the right time. I accept that an opportunity might have been missed here, but the model has made it and is a hit - i.e. few sales have been lost as a result. Tick. I, too, would love to see an even better model, but am overjoyed at what we have. We cannot know the relative costs of the alternative mechanism that has been identified elsewhere in this thread, but perhaps it will emerge when margins are less critical. I do not support mediocrity - but 2012 may not be the time to be putting ultimate quality before price in the mass-market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 In these straitened times, JE, manufacturers need to hit the right note at the right price at the right time. I accept that an opportunity might have been missed here, but the model has made it and is a hit - i.e. few sales have been lost as a result. Tick. I, too, would love to see an even better model, but am overjoyed at what we have. We cannot know the relative costs of the alternative mechanism that has been identified elsewhere in this thread, but perhaps it will emerge when margins are less critical. I do not support mediocrity - but 2012 may not be the time to be putting ultimate quality before price in the mass-market. I think you're right Ian. The market sets a certain 'value' (=price) level for r-t-r locos and an awful lot has been said about Hornby shoving up the RRP on the ex Airfix 4F. In other words the market has a perception about where it sees the price and in these straitened times the manufacturer would be a fool not to pay heed to that situation and perception. Possibly the highly decorated SECR version could have commanded a higher price - some retailers are having no trouble selling all they could get at/near RRP level so I understand - but the 'cooking black' locos would not have such a sales power and the mechanicals have obviously got to be a common feature for all versions. In the end we get what we pay for and the as usual the $64,000 question is 'would the market stand the higher price of greater mechanical sophistication?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matabiau Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Sorry,but I would disagree that the quality of their products has deteriorated to that extent. I realise that there have been problems within Germany and Austria and prices have spiralled ever upwards,putting the product out of reach for many. Which brings me back to the point I am making. Do we want this to happen to the UK r-t-r market ? I am not suggesting that quality in continental RTR models has deteriorated, only that in the majority of mainstream models quality (and detail) has not seen the same scale of improvement that has been witnessed in the UK, but then the UK had a lot of catching up to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 If RMweb had been around 15 years ago, I suspect it's membership would have been very small indeed dominated by the real railway modellers who built kits. The fact that there has been a shift is an indication of how much proprietory models have improved in the past decade. Many 'builders' have crossed over to this market therebye creating more of a level playing field. That said, it is the serious modellers and their accumilated knowledge that we can thank for todays improvements and Hornby's and Bachamnn's market must now be vastly bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Just a thought. The 'protrusion' we are all getting worked up about (and yes as noted I did mention it in July as the only major let down of the model) - is it part of the metal chassis block, or a seperate plastic motor housing? If the latter, would anyone want to commission a resin replacement from one of the smaller suppliers, and some matched livery lables or decals from (say) precision lables, to get a better reprasentation of the front of the firebox - matched SECR green and a bit of additional lining? In my minds eye the replacement would be a thinner bracket, or at least the same thickness at the rear end, but then with a large 'cut out' to reprasent the front wall, tapering out towards the top of match the profile of the boiler. There would still be 'fill' but it would be a few mm inboard of the present, and allow the lining to continue. Just a though. No rush. What do people think? Such parts are quickly produced to improve diesel locos, so why not for steam models? The only major challenge would be matching that livery. Easy for the black examples, not so for the green. I hope to have a review of my loco on youtube in the next week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Speaking as someone used to making patterns for casting, I could knock something up then have it cast. The mold charge would be high and the parts would not be cheap due to increases in whitemetal cost. Spin charge can be added plus 20% VAT...! See where I'm leading... Then I have to locate small plastic bags (got them anyway) and have card sleeves printed to fold over the plastic bag and staple them together. Small jiffy bags need to be purchased for despatcing the casting and of course there is the paper work, invoicing and diesel fuel to the post office several times a week. The cost of each casting would have to make it worthwhile for me as I'm not a charity...Then i'll no doubt face the accusation of profiteering from "fellow modellers". I'd also have to read the threads where individuals were waiting until I unloaded on Ebay so they could but them cheap, or I'd find out there wasnt actually a market in the first place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Speaking as someone used to making patterns for casting, I could knock something up then have it cast. The mold charge would be high and the parts would not be cheap due to increases in whitemetal cost. Spin charge can be added plus 20% VAT...! See where I'm leading... See People, He has the Answer, but will not share except for gold! Where is his faith? To North Wales with torches, Burn the Heretic...etc..etc. Take your point Coach! cheers from Oz, Peter C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Thanks Peter...This made me laugh on this cold and frosty morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Thanks Peter...This made me laugh on this cold and frosty morning. Cold and frosty? We've had the " Hundred year rainfall event" over the last 24hrs, four inches, more in places, over about 2 hours! Lovely! (apart from the floods!). Enjoy your "Full Welsh" LG, glad to have spread a smile! Say no more as we're veering wildly OT! Cheers, PC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Having dealt with this firm and been pleased in the past, anyone still seeking a SECR "C" might try here - they say stock levels are live. http://www.rrrmodels.co.uk/Bachmann-steam-locos-c-2_164_243.html No, no other connection etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold D9020 Nimbus Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Does this locomotive have provision for a front coupling? Those in shops certainly don't have one fitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2012 Does this locomotive have provision for a front coupling? Those in shops certainly don't have one fitted. It has a NEM socket on the underside of the frame with a small tension lock + pocket included in one of the accessory bags. (The converse is the case on the tender where the NEM tension lock is fitted but the screw coupling has not been fitted to the bufferbeam) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 In these straitened times, JE, manufacturers need to hit the right note at the right price at the right time. I accept that an opportunity might have been missed here, but the model has made it and is a hit - i.e. few sales have been lost as a result. Tick. I, too, would love to see an even better model, but am overjoyed at what we have. We cannot know the relative costs of the alternative mechanism that has been identified elsewhere in this thread, but perhaps it will emerge when margins are less critical. I do not support mediocrity - but 2012 may not be the time to be putting ultimate quality before price in the mass-market. I do agree with you, Ian, and am as cynical as I suggested you might be! JE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 I do agree with you, Ian, and am as cynical as I suggested you might be! JE I seldom find much wrong with your postings JE - but you are generally better informed than I am, that's all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 Apologise. Issue a voucher for future use, thus securing the goodwill of customers , to both Bachmann and The Hobby Shop who appear to be the innocent party in this. Tell people when the next batch of SE&CR will be. Try and track down some models and connect customers with shops. Yes it's a lot of fuss, but if I had pre ordered to secure my model I would really be annoyed. OK, to return briefly to my posting made last week and update everybody, today I received an e:mail from Bachmann in response to the website contact form I submitted last week. In their response they provided the details and website links of a number of retailers who were still showing that they had SECR versions of the Class C still available this morning. Luckily I did not have to look around today as yesterday a SECR version arrived from The Signal Box which I had website ordered last Saturday soon after receiving an e:mail from The Signal Box telling me about their new website. So, many thanks to Bachmann for taking the time to search for the retailers who still were showing stocks of the SECR version as well as The Signal Box for sending me the e:mail when they did providing the link to their website which, at that time, showed SECR versions as in stock. Must say that the SECR version is exquisite - gave it a test run on analogue before fitting one of the decoders which came with the Blue Pullman (which, in turn, got Howes LokSounds in each driving car). Fitting the decoder in the Class C tender was easy ...but those teeny weeny screws are fiddly. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stock_2007 Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 It may sound a bit girlie but I really do enjoy coming on to this site, but I'm always astonished that no sooner has a new whatever it is comes out, then we all go to our own corners and come out fighting. I know nothing bad is meant by it and everyone is still friends afterward but it just makes me chuckle as its every time! ps My SE&CR looks fine and runs great I'm happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2012 It may sound a bit girlie but I really do enjoy coming on to this site, but I'm always astonished that no sooner has a new whatever it is comes out, then we all go to our own corners and come out fighting. I know nothing bad is meant by it and everyone is still friends afterward but it just makes me chuckle as its every time! ps My SE&CR looks fine and runs great I'm happy And that's the point. This is a fine model that will please most of us. But there is a role for those who see the flaws to voice their concerns, especially when it is done in a measured way, as in this thread. In this case the carps don't stop the enjoyment - but let's not suppress those who know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilwell Park Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Ah, enter the minefield!! The main batch of O1's from 1903 onwards had H class boilers & fittings during their rebuild. However, the first 12 O1's were kitted out with new C class parts before 1903. Another 16 received second or third hand C class boilers and fittings over the next 20 or so years. The key difference between C and the early O1's was the driving wheels (5'2" & 5'1" respectively) and the wheelbase (16'6" and 15'6"). So Bachmann could do an O1 by changing the tender. They'd just have to be careful over which number they picked and accept a very little bit of compromise over the wheelbase - which is nothing compared to the difference between 18.85mm and 16.5mm!! The Bluebell's O1 (no. 65) was one of the H class rebuilds though. (This all came from Bradley's book "Locomotive History of the South Eastern Railway", p148ff) Hi. I have been worrying about this post since I first read it yesterday having never heard before that any O1 were rebuilt with C class boilers. Class O were rebuilt to O1 with H clas boilers. H boiler 4'3" x 10'31/2" firebox 5'8" long. C boiler 4'53/4" x 10'9" firebox 5'10" long. I must have an earlier edition of Locomotives of the SER since it only runs to 124 pages. However on page 82 it states that 16 engines were fitted with second hand domeless boilers from the A or Q classes. On page 83 it is stated that 5 O class were put on the duplicate list and replaced by C class with the same numbers, 287, 291, 293, 294, 298. The original O with these numbers were scrapped in 1909. Rebuilding to O1 with H boilers commenced in 1903. Nowhere does it state that O or O1 were rebuilt with C class boilers. Now, in the interests of accuracy, I am willing to be proved wrong but I am doubtful about this statement. Roger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2ManySpams Posted December 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2012 I haven't yet looked at my C class - Xmas day will be fine for that.... I ordered one, it arrived and then it vanished. I hate Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I must have an earlier edition of Locomotives of the SER since it only runs to 124 pages. The 1985 revised edition runs to 226 pages and is entitled "The Locomotive History of the South Eastern Railway" by DL Bradley and published by the RCTS. Different book perhaps? Whats the printing date on your copy btw? However on page 82 it states that 16 engines were fitted with second hand domeless boilers from the A or Q classes. It does state the non-H boilers were similar to the A,R and Q types, but definitly not from them ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilwell Park Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 The 1985 revised edition runs to 226 pages and is entitled "The Locomotive History of the South Eastern Railway" by DL Bradley and published by the RCTS. Different book perhaps? Whats the printing date on your copy btw? 1963, an earlier edition but still RCTS by Bradley. It does state the non-H boilers were similar to the A,R and Q types, but definitly not from them ... My edition states that some ran with second hand boilers from A & Q classes, others by normal exchange from O under repair, however these were not C class boilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bedding Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 I ordered one, it arrived and then it vanished. I hate Christmas! You have a treat in store. Personally I have promised myself a Christmas Special running session with as much on the boards as can find space. And make a new wish list. PB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Having dealt with this firm and been pleased in the past, anyone still seeking a SECR "C" might try here - they say stock levels are live. http://www.rrrmodels.co.uk/Bachmann-steam-locos-c-2_164_243.html No, no other connection etc. And there it was - gone, fortunately mines waiting in Santas goods shed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 14, 2012 Share Posted December 14, 2012 Expect SE&CR livery locos to start appearing on Ebay for mega £££'s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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