RMweb Premium 47137 Posted June 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 24, 2012 This is one of a pair of dioramas of Alloa station, on show in the Scottish Railway Museum at Bo'ness. The mirrors at each end seem to work well ... the illusion would fail quickly on a working layout, but on a static scene it all looks right. I think the platform canopy helps a lot to make the effect work. This model was only about a metre above the floor (I guess this was so children can push the buttons), and I suspect the effect would be even better if it could be a bit higher up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coombe Barton Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Used very effectively on Poynton Sneer http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56443-poynton-sneer-sidings/ - 4th picture Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted June 24, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 24, 2012 Marc has used mirrors on several of his excellent micro layouts, andxeven when you know they are there, they are not very obvious and really extend the scenery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Something to consider is to use front reflecting mirrors. I did on my layout, and the effect is worth the money..... :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted June 25, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 25, 2012 Well, inspired by these replies I have bought an Apa box from Ikea, and ordered up two 8 x 6 inch front reflecting mirrors from eBay. Next step will be to print some track templates. The project will be on two levels of railway, to display my Bachmann 2-EPB (which may look like 2 x 2-EPB) in a static way, and perhaps some limited movement on a lower level for my small collection of four and six-coupled locos. An urban preservation scheme perhaps. This is a project for the autumn, but there's no harm in roughing it out now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim Read Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Hello all, Forgive my ignorance but what is a front reflecting mirror? Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Graff Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Hello all, Forgive my ignorance but what is a front reflecting mirror? Jim It's what it sounds like, it reflects from the surface instead of behind the glass. An ordinary mirror is rather useless as it gives a "gap" between the model in front, and the reflected image. The gap is equal to 2x the thickness of the glass! Hope it clarified it a bit... Front or surface reflecting mirrors are mostly used for optics. Some lorry rear view mirrors are made of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim Read Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Thanks MG I thought it might be that but wasn't sure, I wonder what they coat them with I suppose it must be a very secure coating otherwise they wouldn't be used on lorries. And your a great scenic modeller wow! Jim [edit] speelin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted June 26, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 26, 2012 Actually the next step was to assemble the APA box and see how much space there is. Here are three photos, firstly as the manufacturer intends it to be, and then turned on its side for what seems more suitable for a micro, especially one which wants some height in its design. Perhaps the lid could become the basis of a fiddle yard and be secured onto the box for transit. Some notes for anyone who is pondering an APA box. It is clearly made to a price. The softwood rails are made from lengths of wood spliced and glued together, and some lengths have two joints, both barely an inch from each end. They are made of a very soft wood and will scratch with a finger nail to leave a groove behind. The panels are white-faced hardboard, which the manufacturer calls 'fiberboard, foil, acrylic paint' - hmm. Somehow I thought fibreboard meant mdf. The base panel (which I am suggesting becomes the rear) is plain unfaced hardboard. The lid and both ends come ready-assembled, so while it is easy to substitute some sheet ply or mdf for the 'base/rear' and the two narrow sides during assembly, it will be awkward to do the same for the ends and lid. I suspect I will be reinforcing inside with bracing and a stable sheet material, perhaps curved to make a transition from background to overhead sky. If I discard the lid, it will be easy to slot a pelmet into the frame rails to hide some integral lighting. With the box standing on its long side, there is enough floor area to lay two sheets of A4 end to end, plus a bit, and enough height to stand a sheet of A4 upright. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted June 30, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 30, 2012 Here is a mock-up in case someone would like to suggest improvements or point out major oversights ... This will be an 00 model to display my collection of small locos, the largest is my J94. The model will be on two levels. The lower level will be about 1.5 inches above the base of the box to make room for some landscaping and perhaps "some kind of slide out control panel". At the front right there is a tiny loco depot (for tiny locos). The visible track is three sidings and an access road, built around two Streamline small Y points. The access road exits at the rear left to run onto a sector plate, this connects to a hidden siding running along the back. Front left is a coaling road. Behind the shed is a longer siding to hold two locos. The grey boxes represent a curving viaduct with a length of track on top to display my Bachmann 2-EPB. The hidden siding goes directly under the viaduct. The layout has capacity to hold 4 locos and be able to freely re-arrange them in any permutation. I am thinking of the siding into the engine shed emerging onto a 'stick' of track to make for easy removal of locos. This stick could be hinged to fold upwards. It would increase the capacity to five locos. Perhaps there should be a similar arrangement on the end of the hidden siding. The mirror on the right end will make the engine shed look about a foot long (and big enough for two locos). The mirror on the left will be angled so it is orthogonal to the end of the viaduct. I must make sure I don't create an infinite series of reflections. There could be some LED lighting units below the top, and a shallow pelmet in front of them, and the transformer squeezed in below the low level tracks. (Edited 3 July to show a better mock-up, with the cartons turned inside out and the lower level raised away from the bottom) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidge Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well, inspired by these replies I have bought an Apa box from Ikea, and ordered up two 8 x 6 inch front reflecting mirrors from eBay. I am also modelling using an APA box and am interested where you are getting the front reflecting mirrors from as I have trawled ebay but can't find them. I had bought an A4 size acrylic mirror from ebay but it was not front-reflecting so I get the dreaded gap when used as an end-scene. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted July 5, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 5, 2012 The ones I have bought are from 'otas32' in Stanmore ... they are listed on eBay at the moment as 'First Front Surface Mirror mil spec 154x210mm laser opt' under the heading 'everything else / educational' (I don't have any connection here except as a customer). Back in the 1970s I remember a Welsh style 009 layout in the Railway Modeller where the builder wrote he had used 'the thinnnest glass he could find - not for economy but to minimise the gap between the models and the reflection'. The layout was called 'Under Milk Wood' and I have just found a page on it in the Small Layout Scrapbook: http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page89a/index.html The mirror is extending the harbour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Mirrors are a great way of adding an extra dimension to a layout. I made a small diorama so I could pose and photo stock; in the first photo there is actually only 3 trucks, the rest is a reflection from the mirror on the side wall of the diorama which is nicely hidden under the bridge. The second photo shows a class 128 at the other end of the diorama but in this photo the problem of the reflective mirror behind the glass is more obvious as you can see the gap in the rail, so I've learnt something by reading this post because I didn't know that front reflective mirrors existed, but now I do. The last photo is another small diorama with mirrors this time of a depot, there is only one class 20, the other is a reflection. I also have a couple of mirrors placed around my ngauge layout as this allows me to watch trains coming from a different direction which adds a whole new perspective so to speak. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted July 7, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 7, 2012 I especially like the freight train picture. I remain convinced mirrors can work really well on a diorama, or on a part of a layout without moving trains, but the effect would look very odd on a working layout if for example it resembled a head-on collision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm glad it's not just me that likes mirrors on a layout They can be used very effectively, and I seem to use them on every layout I build.... Even if just tucked under a river bridge (Clarbeston North O gauge) Mirrors can help the space-starved modeller Although to conceal the fact that you are using this illusion is the tricky part.... I for instance would never just "plonk" a mirror at the end of a layout.... I would disguise the edges with buildings, chimneys, greenery and perhaps run a pipe or bridge accross it It's surprising how well the last one of these works! On Hendre Lane, I ran a footbridge accross the mirror but actually, it was only half a bridge - a "low relief" bridge.... Which was one of the features I was most happy about on that layout Richard, when you say "... the illusion would fail quickly on a working layout" I would say this is not the case - as long as you position the mirror correctly.... Of course, it's not possible to place a mirror right bang in the middle of a roundy, roundy layout But placement at the end of a scene does not affect the running of a layout, providing you have planned the layout properly.... On my steelworks layout "Wales, Rails, Rain & Steel" I used a mirror at both ends of the layout On one side the mirror is at the end of the layout and on the other side, it is placed in front of the building which disguises the fiddle yard exit entrance.... Because this building hides off-stage workings by being quite large, the fact that a mirror is placed to one side of it is not readily apparent..... On Hendre, I used a glass mirror And the fact that it was not surface-silvered is apparent On all subsequent layouts, I've used poly mirror which is surface-silvered This is more prefereable because the material is much lighter, more easily and neatly cut, is cheaper, and less likely to crack it also helps disguise the join between "virtual" and actual layout By way of there not being a gap between the two.... The downside is that being flexible, the plastic material is not as "optically true" as the rigid, flatter glass mirror - hence you get some distortion in the platic version.... Anyhow, here are some pics of some of my layouts with mirrors Note that I've included some end-on shots of Hendre - just to demonstrate the fact that even when there are just 2 locos parked at the fuelling point even from an end-on perspective, the fact that you think you can see more locos in the distance can be very effective..... Cheers all PS. Even I was looking for the mirror in the shot of the 08 on Wales Rails Rain & Steel!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted July 21, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 21, 2012 There is a lot of inspiration for me in all of Marc's photos here, especially Bracty Bridge ... I have just found the aerial shot at http://www.rmweb.co....72-dsc-2387jpg/ which satisifed some of my curiosity ... the blend between the right-hand mirror and the sky is amazing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Hi Richard, Thanks for that. The blend is made easier by the fact that the mirror on Bracty Bridge is the surface-silvered type..... Don't know if you saw this, but On the original thread for that layout, a piece of the mirror is removable I hinged it with tape, and intended to make a permanent hinge... but it flips back, and allows you to run a train through, to a fiddle cassette on the right hand side of the layout too This made operation a tad more interesting, in that you could run through trains as well Mind you, for such a small layout, you need someone there on the fiddle yard, to do this..... So for such a small model - it's amazing to think you need more than 1 operator.... Hope you have fun trying out mirrors on your layout Keep us posted with progress and/or thoughts and ideas Cheers Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Just reading through this thread again, then did a Google search on Front surface mirrors and came up with this http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Front-Surface-Mirror./ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted February 22, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 22, 2013 Interesting discussion, thanks for the tip on surface mirrors. I plan to use a mirror effect as backscene for my Farthing goods depot. In my case, there's no way to hide the reflection of rolling stock in the mirror. So I intend to put a mirror temporarily in place, take a photo of it, and then use the printed photo (rather than the mirror itself) as the backscene. Heaven knows if it will work, but I thought I'd mention it as a possible option. As an aside I've been wondering whether it would work to display the backsscene photo on a flatscreen, to give more depth and light. Talk about mixed media :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Job's Modelling Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Very interesting and inspirational. Will think about when I,m designing my next diorama. Job Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I tend to think that mirrors work best when they're placed so that you can't get a really direct view of them. Tucked away under a bridge or at the end of an overall roof or amongst a cluster of buildings for example. That way they give a hint that the scene continues beyond the layout boundary but, from normal viewing angles, you don't get the impression of a head on collision or a view of yourself, which tends to spoil the effect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc smith Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yes, I usually place some pipework or a bridge accross a mirrorIn the case of Hendre Lane (picture above) it was half a footbridge i.e. in low relief.....The mirror gave the appearance that the bridge was in fact "whole" but obviously you need to paint the back surface of the bridge for the reflection to look convincing Also on Poynton Sneer, I have placed a mirror onto the end of my sector plate (appologies for those who have seen this on my thread)I think this has worked well, and I'd definately consider using the technique again.... A little bit of scenery; ballasting, greenery etc is continued onto the sector plate so when aligned with the track at the front of the layout, the eye is tricked into thinking there is more of the layout When the sector plate is pushed backwards, to align with the rear track,a small piece of mirror slides into place, to block the view into an "empty" fiddle This similarly tricks the eye, if only momentarily, but you'd be surprised at how many people don't spot the mirrorat first. One rmweb member had been back 3 times before he noticed it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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